Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

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At best, this approach is vulgar and and at it's worst it displays a lack of a larger understanding of the dangers of having a flippant approach to our not so distant history that enables a complacency that's puts us at risk for repeating ourselves. Content matters. Art matters. Art has the ability to be an agent for change and move the conversation forward. This was a missed opportunity and brought the conversation backwards.
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Thank you Samson for these words. I wanted to choose my own words but its better I quote Yours.
I am German. When I saw this video we all talk about some minutes ago for first time I was uncomfortable, sitting tensioned, on edge, shaking my head.
As you said in your latest post: Art should be uncomfortable. I agree. But not like this.
 
Not being critical...just curious....what do Russians call forced labor camps?
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/

Japan certainly used all sorts of people including American POWs for forced labor....which is very hard to separate from slavery.

I think Soviets addressed long time ago, right after Stalin died. I heard they still pay all the victims and (in some cases) ancestors and provide some sort of social benefits to all victims and ancestors of repressions (probably like free transportation, early retirement eligibility, discounted medical care, and stuff, not too sure). Right after Stalin died Khruschev took over and they condemned his crimes and cult. They reputedly did something similar to all other victims of communism repressions from other countries back in the earlier '90s. One of my granddad was in labor camp for 3 years. Not fun as he told me.
 
One of the main conclusion I can make out this threat: a lot of art and artists are currently under threat of being suppressed because of that silly thing some people are trying to push on us - called a "cultural appropriation". =)

The modern Tchaikovsky would never be able create his Nutcracker (obviously because of folk dance music/imitation of some ethical music he used), Shakespeare would never be able to creat his 'Romeo and Juliet' (obviously because he would be accused of exploiting the clan war between 2 Italian families), Rimsky-Korsakova would never be able to creat his 'Scheherazade' (probably because of improper interpretation of Arabian Nigths - One Thousand and One Night), and Kafka, Kundera, Salinger, G G Marquez, Orwell, Fitzgerald, Nabokov, Steinbeck, Kerouac, Hugo, Dostoevsky, Saint-Auxupery, Dickens, Tolstoy and many many others won't be able to publish their great books in modern times, because of lousy cultural appropriation censors which we have a lot in modern society.

My proposition is simple: let's leave art for artists, and history for historians. Everything else is a free game. Everything in this world is up to artistic freedom of interpretation and self-expression. Otherwise you are heading us back into Medieval times of Catholic inquisition and I don't want to be part of it. I'm heretic, I guess, so send me to your episcopal tribunal and burn me on a central town square. I'm ready, get your auto-da-fe on! :P
 
One of the main conclusion I can make out this threat: a lot of art and artists are currently under threat of being suppressed because of that silly thing some people are trying to push on us - called a "cultural appropriation". =)

The modern Tchaikovsky would never be able create his Nutcracker (obviously because of folk dance music/imitation of some ethical music he used), Shakespeare would never be able to creat his 'Romeo and Juliet' (obviously because he would be accused of exploiting the clan war between 2 Italian families), Rimsky-Korsakova would never be able to creat his 'Scheherazade' (probably because of improper interpretation of Arabian Nigths - One Thousand and One Night), and Kafka, Kundera, Salinger, G G Marquez, Orwell, Fitzgerald, Nabokov, Steinbeck, Kerouac, Hugo, Dostoevsky, Saint-Auxupery, Dickens, Tolstoy and many many others won't be able to publish their great books in modern times, because of lousy cultural appropriation censors which we have a lot in modern society.

My proposition is simple: let's leave art for artists, and history for historians. Everything else is a free game. Everything in this world is up to artistic freedom of interpretation and self-expression. Otherwise you are heading us back into Medieval times of Catholic inquisition and I don't want to be part of it. I'm heretic, I guess, so send me to your episcopal tribunal and burn me on a central town square. I'm ready, get your auto-da-fe on! :P

First, just want to point out that I don't think anyone here is suggesting that anyone be censored or suppressed. Artists can make whatever they want - it doesn't mean that what they make will be good, or well-received, or should not be critiqued. Sometimes you try to make some cool art, or some controversial art, or some whatever art, and it's just BAD. Or it comes off as exploitative (whether or not the artist intended it that way - we don't know authorial intention, but we know how the art comes off). Ever heard the term "Oscar-bait"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_bait

Essentially, sometimes even something of average or above-average quality can seem "offensive" or bad or in poor taste simply because it seems somehow pre-designed to garner awards or prestige, rather than being a more genuine or authentic or honest artistic expression/interpretation.

Second, your "examples" of cultural appropriation aren't quite right. Typically, cultural appropriation is negative because it's not nice for a group (like white Americans) who committed genocide on another group (like Native Americans) to then decide to use the headdresses of the group they murdered as a fashion statement. I'm not really interested in debating the morality of cultural appropriation because I have mixed feelings on it and it isn't a black and white issue, and I have certainly come across people looking to use "offendedness" as a weapon in unnecessary circumstances. But I just wanted to point out that discussions of cultural appropriation typically involve a group of individuals that has somehow dramatically oppressed another group - which most of the examples you cite do not involve.

Anyway, I 100% agree that artists should feel free to interpret and express whatever they want. :)
 
My general response was to those who generally feel free to bash other people's creative work under false pretense of what they feel is not properly perfectly cultural appropriation complaint. I'm all in of support of political correctness and even some proper cultural appropriation to degree, but like everything else if PC is taken to the levels of absurdity and can e used for egoistic purposes to censor or bash somebody under pretense of being "offended". Grow a thick skin, eh. :) It's hard to create art nowdays without a fear to be accused of something and have a hordes of SJWs claiming weird stuff and protesting against your freedom of creative self-expression. Was Navka's interpretation was so good ? Certainly not. It was intended for silly TV show. Can it be called art or not? Should be some certain way as you call it properly "culturally appropriated"? I don't think so. Cultural appropriation is kinda seems potential to become a self-censorship with the modern tendencies which some people are pushing. It's fine to criticize the way Navka's choreo is, it's fine to criticize the level of artistry and lack of depth (of talent included in this choreo), but it's not ok to criticize the message and the way this message presented, because it's the attack on the purpose and the whole essence of art (in this case Navka's message was very specifically correlated with Life is Beautiful movie). Why people feel like she has been mocking the message by her shortcomings in choreography and the way it was prepared. Who is to judge what level of artistry is appropriate to approach subject of Holocaust in creating art out of it and who simply should not even try. Main question: who owns the art and why some people think they are the ones to decide what is appropriate and what is not. If you don't like the art - well, just don't like it and say what you don't like in it. But don't run on the corners screaming what it's not appropriate because in your personal eyes it's not a politically correct enough. Don't look for a reason to get offended - and you won't be. ;)
 
I'm more offended at how terribly it's choreographed. It's Averbukh though, so that's to be expected.
 
So you are not offended, you just don't like his choreography. So do I. However, I can't demand that subject of Holocaust should have some kind of special high level of artistry every time someone tries to reference it in one's art. But its a fair criticism to quality of the art not to the fact of "exploiting" the subject or way of interpretation. IMHO.
 
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I'm more offended at how terribly it's choreographed. It's Averbukh though, so that's to be expected.

BTW is it true that in the same Russian show in the past there was also program with Nazi holding a gun and chasing woman aiming at her? :slink: Can anyone confirm or deny? I came across some comment about it somewhere else.
 
Reading through this thread made me wonder even more in what exact context does cultural appropriation actually happens. Is this term just used too loosely nowadays or what I see as normal might not in actually be in other cultures? Not so much related to the case in question (which by the way I find that it could be much better executed, giving less room for criticism, although I can understand the story behind it), but for example, here there's a National Indigneous Day, it isn't that much celebrated and as far I know it isn't a holiday, but children usually dress as this at school, making their own headress and so on while receiving lectures about indigneous culture and its contribution to the country. I probably also did but I can't recall. It's a celebratory day, it has no derogratory connotation. Remembering that the indigenous population here actually responds for less that 1 million; while the country has 200 million people (!) Although, a lot might have some far genetic relation to it due to miscegenation. Even so the huge majority doesn't identify with the specific cultures in the indigenous communities. What I find interesting is that here there's also a "Black Awareness Day" that is a holiday in 5 states including mine, although people don't dress as such, which ironically would be considered very offensive here I think (except the hair because people don't care much for it. If you have an african related hairstyle and is white for example people just assume you just really like african culture and the end). People at this day usually do events to raise awareness on the topic and etc; it's more political, or basically just treat it as any other holiday. There are also others such as the "Mixed Race Day" that is a holiday in 3 states. which i just learned about in wikipedia lmao, there's just too much "day of something" here to keep track

Hence why I was throughly confused by people calling the use of native headresses as cultural appropriation at the internet, especially in countries like the US that actually have a history background with it just like mine, incuding the decimation of several indigneous communities through the years.

So one might think that the problem might be the actual commercialization of it. Well, Carnival isn't a model for anything, but here it's also common sometimes for adults to wear indigenous costumes for no particular reason other than to celebrate carnival, which shock is actually in its origins a Christian holiday period. It's such a standard carnival costume that I think people are just bored with it and don't even use much anymore, however you can see a ton of children in all races with it again.

So what is it that makes something like this completely normal and acceptable in some cultures and completely outrageous in others? Is this just normal and expected or actually an issue?

And returning to the program in question, in what extent can a program like this be considered cultural apropriation? In my opinion I can understand how some might find it uncomfortable when they don't know the backstory, most people while jumping at it by parachute would get the wrong idea, hence why I find it could be made in a better way. Is it really necessary to consider the likehood or something like this criticism hapenning when choreographing history related programs because figure skating is, after all, an international sport? Even if the creator himself is Jew?

In conclusion, the claim of "Cultural appropriation", still leaves a huge question mark in my mind.
 
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Reading through this thread made me wonder even more in what exact context does cultural appropriation actually happens. Is this term just used too loosely nowadays or what I see as normal might not in actually be in other cultures? Not so much related to the case in question (which by the way I find that it could be much better executed, giving less room for criticism, although I can understand the story behind it), but for example, here there's a National Indigneous Day, it isn't that much celebrated and as far I know it isn't a holiday, but children usually dress as this at school, making their own headress and so on while receiving lectures about indigneous culture and its contribution to the country. I probably also did but I can't recall. It's a celebratory day, it has no derogratory connotation. Remembering that the indigenous population here actually responds for less that 1 million; while the country has 200 million people (!) Although, a lot might have some far genetic relation to it due to miscegenation. Even so the huge majority doesn't identify with the specific cultures in the indigenous communities. What I find interesting is that here there's also a "Black Awareness Day" that is a holiday in 5 states including mine, although people don't dress as such, which ironically would be considered very offensive here I think (except the hair because people don't care much for it. If you have an african related hairstyle and is white for example people just assume you just really like african culture and the end). People at this day usually do events to raise awareness on the topic and etc; it's more political, or basically just treat it as any other holiday. There are also others such as the "Mixed Race Day" that is a holiday in 3 states. which i just learned about in wikipedia lmao, there's just too much "day of something" here to keep track

Hence why I was throughly confused by people calling the use of native headresses as cultural appropriation at the internet, especially in countries like the US that actually have a history background with it just like mine, incuding the decimation of several indigneous communities through the years.

So one might think that the problem might be the actual commercialization of it. Well, Carnival isn't a model for anything, but here it's also common sometimes for adults to wear indigenous costumes for no particular reason other than to celebrate carnival, which shock is actually in its origins a Christian holiday period. It's such a standard carnival costume that I think people are just bored with it and don't even use much anymore, however you can see a ton of children in all races with it again.

So what is it that makes something like this completely normal and acceptable in some cultures and completely outrageous in others? Is this just normal and expected or actually an issue?

And returning to the program in question, in what extent can a program like this be considered cultural apropriation? In my opinion I can understand how some might find it uncomfortable when they don't know the backstory, most people while jumping at it by parachute would get the wrong idea, hence why I find it could be made in a better way. Is it really necessary to consider the likehood or something like this criticism hapenning when choreographing history related programs because figure skating is, after all, an international sport? Even if the creator himself is Jew?

In conclusion, the claim of "Cultural appropriation", still leaves a huge question mark in my mind.


I think the main issue in this case is that is a bit too literal and requires too much context knowledge to accept.
For instance, Yulia's Schindler´s List program was fine because:
1. people who had no clue just seen it as a dramatic program, with a cute little girl skating to some sad music.
2. people who had limited knowledge ("thats something related to holocaust") were not outraged by the program either, because the dramatic tones matched with the theme
3. people who had knowledge of the movie, red dress girl and so on also could appreciate it.

In this case, what do we see?
1. people who have no clue see folks dancing in prison clothes. Its kinda weird and uncomfortable.
2. people who can identify its related to holocaust see folks dancing in prison clothers and feel uncomfortable because holocaust is a tragic event and doesnt really match with the program in their heads. they may think the skaters are making fun of it, for example.
3. you actually need all the context like watching the movie and remembering it well to understand the program.
Which automatically makes most people uncomfortable with it.
Last but not least, many people, specially the ones who dont follow FS, wont watch the whole program. They will just see some photos from it, read the caption, and go on a rage rampage about how disrespectful it is.


I feel its something like this here.
 
I think the main issue in this case is that is a bit too literal and requires too much context knowledge to accept.
For instance, Yulia's Schindler´s List program was fine because:
1. people who had no clue just seen it as a dramatic program, with a cute little girl skating to some sad music.
2. people who had limited knowledge ("thats something related to holocaust") were not outraged by the program either, because the dramatic tones matched with the theme
3. people who had knowledge of the movie, red dress girl and so on also could appreciate it.

In this case, what do we see?
1. people who have no clue see folks dancing in prison clothes. Its kinda weird and uncomfortable.
2. people who can identify its related to holocaust see folks dancing in prison clothers and feel uncomfortable because holocaust is a tragic event and doesnt really match with the program in their heads. they may think the skaters are making fun of it, for example.
3. you actually need all the context like watching the movie and remembering it well to understand the program.
Which automatically makes most people uncomfortable with it.
Last but not least, many people, specially the ones who dont follow FS, wont watch the whole program. They will just see some photos from it, read the caption, and go on a rage rampage about how disrespectful it is.


I feel its something like this here.

I agree that it just requires too much context. Actually your last point happened with me and my mother. She out of nowehere showed me an article about it saying "You like figure skating, don't you? Look at this absurd!" with just a screenshot, so she didn't actually watch the program. Once I told her that it was based on the movie, which she loves, she still thought it was unnecessary and of bad taste.
Overall she doesn't follow figure skating other than the routines I show force her although some of them she finds really beautiful.

Anyway, for me I just don't like the choreography personally.
 
I think figure skating is a really tricky medium. In 2002, I think some American commentators thought Anissina Peizerat "Liberty" program was disrespectful. Figure skating is often thisclose to being tacky. Come on. "Something something ON ICE." I often feel figure skating is more suited to an abstract interpretation of a serious theme than a literal take, although it seems to me many Russian figure skaters see it differently i.e. the more literal the better. The best "literal" skate to music expressing feelings about a serious event remains Ekaterina Gordeeva's "Celebration of a Life." On paper, it is very tricky - a widow skating/acting out choreography that comes close to portraying the death of her husband. However, just enough choreography was symbolic - she reaches for his hand and it's not there. She's skating and realizes his absence. It would have been a disaster if the choreography had her miming the moment he collapsed on the ice and then the choreography had running around the rink enacting a call to 911. So if you're going to do something on a Holocaust theme, it has to be symbolic/abstract, not skaters in prison style costumes on skates. Costumes that SUGGEST it or evoke it, yes, but not "Concentration Camp Prisoners - ON ICE!" Anissina Peizerat were a bit literal with her actually skating the statue of liberty.

To go on a bit of a tangent, I still die over Ilia Kulik's costume from 1998, and the explanation for its design. THAT is overliteral.
 
It would have been a disaster if the choreography had her miming the moment he collapsed on the ice and then the choreography had running around the rink enacting a call to 911.

It's a good thing Averbukh didn't choreograph that program because he totally would have done just that
 

So off-ice, but it does not change much if anything bar not having common with Averbukh. What's next? Why no gulag choreography, Holodomor theme or Stalin terror / cleanse one preferably in blooded outfits, so something strictly linked to Russia? Oh wait ... I guess it hurts Russians too much so they prefer to latch onto something that does not invoke negative feelings about themselves ... :drama:

I think that Figure Skating should not be focused on all those dramatic or authentic serious events, no matter how it's done.
 
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So off-ice, but it does not change much if anything bar not having common with Averbukh. What's next? Why no gulag choreography, Holodomor theme or Stalin terror / cleanse one preferably in blooded outfits, so something strictly linked to Russia? Oh wait ... I guess it hurts Russians too much so they prefer to latch onto something that does not invoke negative feelings about themselves ... :drama:
.

What makes you think that? They have a lot of movies about Stalin's repressions and other parts of some of the controversial parts of their history. Even the one which got the Oscar in the '90s. 'Burned by the Sun' or smth like that. What's wrong with you? Why so aggressive?
 
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