How are TT/MM's lifts level 4??

[Matt]

I'm back....oh, how college sucks the free time out of one!

I don't have a TV in my dorm room, so I've had to resort to checking the ISU website, checking judges' scores, and downloading videos from forumer.com.

One of the things that's been baffling me is the fact that all three of TT/MM's lifts in their "Romeo & Juliet" FP are constantly receiving a level 4. I thought a pairs team received level 4 by starting the level from a difficult entry, changing positions in the air, having a difficult dismount, etc. But from what I can tell the entry into their lifts is fairly basic, TT is in static position throughout at the top of the lift, and their dismounts are moderately difficult, but nothing that would merit a level 4.

So, how are they getting level 4? Is it b/c of the quality of the lifts (this is the only thing I can come up with)? Maybe one of the CoP savvy folks here in the forum can help me out on this one

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm back....oh, how college sucks the free time out of one!

I don't have a TV in my dorm room, so I've had to resort to checking the ISU website, checking judges' scores, and downloading videos from forumer.com.

One of the things that's been baffling me is the fact that all three of TT/MM's lifts in their "Romeo & Juliet" FP are constantly receiving a level 4. I thought a pairs team received level 4 by starting the level from a difficult entry, changing positions in the air, having a difficult dismount, etc. But from what I can tell the entry into their lifts is fairly basic, TT is in static position throughout at the top of the lift, and their dismounts are moderately difficult, but nothing that would merit a level 4.

So, how are they getting level 4? Is it b/c of the quality of the lifts (this is the only thing I can come up with)? Maybe one of the CoP savvy folks here in the forum can help me out on this one

I'll leave you with Mathman and Doggygirl who both take the scoring of the CoP seriously. I hope they reply to this thread.

I believe the Technical Assistant is either biased or inept.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I'll leave you with Mathman and Doggygirl who both take the scoring of the CoP seriously. I hope they reply to this thread.

I believe the Technical Assistant is either biased or inept.

Joe

I haven't followed the development of pairs scoring, but for the record, the Technical Specialist (caller) at both of T&M's Grand Prix events was Alexander Kuznetsov.

At Eric Bompard he was assisted by Technical Assistant Karen Archer and overseen by Technical Controller Sissy Krish. At Cup of Russia the team was Simon Briggs and Gale Tanger.

However, they also got all level fours at the GP final from Technical Specialist David Kirby (Tech Asst. David Moellenkamp, Tech Controller Marina Sanaia), so if there is a conspiracy afoot, everyone seems to be in on it.

MM

 

[Doggygirl]

Thanks for that info MM. I too am not an expert about identifying the technical moves. I'm just another score sheet junkie. But I know we have a couple others here who are skaters and who seem to be well studied on the technical caller lever details. I hope someone pops in with an informed opinion to the original question as I learn lots from that too!

And MM, I'm with you - there are a WHOLE lot of people that seem to be in on whatever conspiracies are going on.

DG

 

[Mafke]

I
One of the things that's been baffling me is the fact that all three of TT/MM's lifts in their "Romeo & Juliet" FP are constantly receiving a level 4. ...
So, how are they getting level 4?

Possible thoughts.

They're TT/MM?
One caller gave them Level 4 and others are going along afraid of an emperor's got no clothes kind of situation?
She fell once at Skate America (little known fact, it was hushed up, supposedly it was caught on film but that's never been shown....)
Callers don't know what they're doing and/or levels aren't very well defined.
I'll leave it for those who really take COP seriously to offer more educated guesses.

 

[Doggygirl]

Possible thoughts.

She fell once at Skate America (little known fact, it was hushed up, supposedly it was caught on film but that's never been shown....)
.

PML at that part!! I hope we don't have to watch that 20 trillion more times during Oly coverage.

I realize that fans have every right to question any FS judging system based on history. I guess I retain the hope that the vast, vast majority of technical callers (in their varying ranks) and judges are doing their best to judge fairly under this system. If I couldn't retain that hope, and couldn't take the system seriously, then that means this isn't a serious sport and I'll need to find another one to love this much.

I do recognize problems with COP for sure, and there are several things that have been well noted in discussions that I hope will be modified in the future. But overall, I choose to retain the hope that the conspiracies in reality are not nearly as broad and deep as is sometimes speculated.

DG

 

[mzheng]

So, Matt, you noticed the same thing as the commetators. I had heard commentator (suzzie?) commented that some of their lfts were very simple yet were called level4, but at the same times she gushed all over their programs. Sounded almost like they are a shoe in in Turino.....If pre SLC media propgand was any indication, I believe the ppl in the known/circle already smell something.

However, they also got all level fours at the GP final from Technical Specialist David Kirby (Tech Asst. David Moellenkamp, Tech Controller Marina Sanaia), so if there is a conspiracy afoot, everyone seems to be in on it.

MM

IMO, it has more to do with modifications made to CoP this season than the callers.

The callers might very well call the element according to the rules/spec. But the spec/rules have been changed to lower difficulty in lifts (which had been known the weakest areas in Russian pairs. Even back to the days of B/S it was said -- by a knowlegable Canadian fans who thought S/P should've won at SLC -- their lifts were very simple compared to S/P's), higher difficulty in jumps (which are the strength area for top two Russian pairs they both have side by side 3Sal. while their direct competetors from china S/Z and P/T don't have 3Sal). Now it is not allowed to a sbs jump which you already did in combo. For example, without Sal, you can only do a 2A/2A sequence or 3t/3t or 3t/2t as combo, then do sbs 3t or sbs 2A.

Now if you would say it's caller conspiracy, then Pan/Tong would be a victim. They did exact the same 2a/2a sequence as US I/B in the same GP event, while I/B's counted, P/T's was not. Then a day before GPF they were told they can't do their 2a/2a, it would not be considered a sequence combo. They have to use new combo which they had never done before.

So don't tell me the rules change made in this season does not in favor some top skaters while put others top skaters in disadvantages.....It's all politics play out before the Turino.

I heard in Gymnastics these changes would be made ONLY AFTER Olympics. Not right before Olympics, which will throw a lot athelets off in a Olympics season.

 

[nymkfan51]

Exactly mzheng!!!
I don't for one minute think all the judges are conspiring to give one person the win over another ... they don't have to. All the sneaky stuff has been taken care of in advance!!!

 

[hockeyfan228]

In pairs and singles, what was a Level 3 last year is a Level 4 this year. 2005 Level 4 gains the same amount of points that Level 3 did last year. The ISU decided that there was a grade of difficulty between last year's 2 and 3, making it too difficult to attain the highest level, so they re-levelled, practically putting a level between last year's 2 and 3. (They decided to call the new level 3, instead of 2.5.)

Regarding the criteria for gaining each level, the written guidelines for attaining levels in 2004 was more detailed:

L1: Basic take-off, landing, and simple dismount. (Reference to ISU Handbook)
L2: Two of: Simple take off (defined by lift group), two hold changes and one position change, carry with moderate difficulty
L3: Three of: Difficult take-off, including one-arm take-off, one-arm landing, variation of landing (somersault, different landing foot, variation in hold or position, landing direction), two hold and position changes, difficult carry (man skates on one foot, crossovers during lift, spread eagle)

2005:
L2-Two characteristics
L3-Three characteristics
L4-Four characteristics

Characteristics:
Difficulty of take-off
One hold or position change (two for L4)
Difficulty of carry
Difficulty of one-hand hold
Difficulty of landing variety
Change of rotation direction of man
Unexpected (without preparation) take-off.

While the number of position AND hold changes has been reduced as a characteristic to attain L4, under the 2004 rules, this requirement could be skipped altogether, since only three of the characteristics were required, while under 2005 rules, four are required.

As far as changing the Pairs jump rules, I think making the change in an Olympic year is unconscionable. The rule clearly favored T/M, Pet/Tik, and Z/Z at the expense of S/Z, O/S, and Pang/Tong. O/S and Pang/Tong are expendible this year, and Z/Z seem to have been thrown a bone with the rule change. Had Zhao not had to practice new jumps this season, chances are he would not have been injured. He was not hurt because he or his coach made the decision to try for higher levels or more points, but because the rules forced him to learn/re-learn a new element.

 

[soogar]

Had Zhao not had to practice new jumps this season, chances are he would not have been injured. He was not hurt because he or his coach made the decision to try for higher levels or more points, but because the rules forced him to learn/re-learn a new element.

He didn't *have* to learn a new jump. They could have concentrated on bringing up the difficulty on their other elements or working on their spinning. I don't think it's fair to blame the rules for his injury.

 

[mzheng]

He didn't *have* to learn a new jump. They could have concentrated on bringing up the difficulty on their other elements or working on their spinning. I don't think it's fair to blame the rules for his injury.

I'm not sure his injury was directly related to the rule change. But it's fact put them ( the bigest threaten to Rusian pairs ) in disadvantage.

As far as throw a bone to Z/Z, we all know they are not a big threaten to top two Rusian pairs yet. As far as O/S goes, they are not technique efficient yet. As far as 3 (R) to 3 (C) goes, Russian has a better deal. No matter what, chinese knew it, russian knew it, and ppl in the known/circle knew it.....only the general public has no clue. Chinese federation and BinYao knew it was aimed to his teams, but they have no strong saying in ISU technique commitee. They have a long way to go to reach Russian and European history in FS, after all it is a " Blond " sport. It may sound raciast in English, but that's what FS (include its judging history) about to most Asians ( who involved in sports ) views.

 

[Doggygirl]

2 Questions...

Hockeyfan, thanks as always for your detailed info on the techie stuff. So in your opinion, have T/M's lifts called as L4 met the criteria? I really do value your opinion on these things.

General question. I respect everyone's opinion - we are all entitled to ours. I've already put forth my position that I would have a hard time taking the sport seriously (and being an avid fan) if I really thought the depth of corruption was what some speculate that it is. For those of you who really believe (as is your right) that the corruption is SO deep that rule changes are made to favor skaters, and judges / callers follow up to make sure the outcomes are fixed, why do you still follow the sport?

Just trying to understand an alternate POV.

DG

 

[slutskayafan21]

For the same reason Lambiel's spins are only level 1 or 2 most of the time, and get lower GOE scores than Lysacek and Plushenko for their mediocre spins. The judging is still corrupt and this new system does nothing to prevent judges from doing whatever they want.

 

[mzheng]

General question. I respect everyone's opinion - we are all entitled to ours. I've already put forth my position that I would have a hard time taking the sport seriously (and being an avid fan) if I really thought the depth of corruption was what some speculate that it is. For those of you who really believe (as is your right) that the corruption is SO deep that rule changes are made to favor skaters, and judges / callers follow up to make sure the outcomes are fixed, why do you still follow the sport?

Just trying to understand an alternate POV.

DG

Good question.

I follow some of those skaters whose skating move me and give me joy and pleasure when I watch it. No matter what the judge system you use, this is a subjective sport by nature just like gymnastics....they judge system can be defined and redefined, as far as the beauty is not all lost in FS, I might just keep watching....but not following it as religiousely as these days.

 

[nymkfan51]

DG, I've always felt that there was some amount of cheating in figure skating, but I guess I have been so used to it, that it seemed almost normal to me. After SLC and that whole debacle there, there was a real opportunity to clean house and make things right. Unfortunately, this NJS was instituted, and instead of getting rid of the cheating, it has only devised new ways to accomplish the same goals as before.
I don't think everyone in skating is corrupt ... but I can no longer close my eyes and in live in my little dream world, where everyone is honest and above board.
In fact, I would bet you anything that once these Olympics are over, there will be many, many changes made in an effort to make things fairer ... but certain folks will benefit from the timing there, while others will be screwed. Such is life, I guess.
As a big Michelle fan, I hope she gets the heck out of eligible skating ... and fast!

 

[mzheng]

DG, I've always felt that there was some amount of cheating in figure skating, but I guess I have been so used to it, that it seemed almost normal to me.
.............
In fact, I would bet you anything that once these Olympics are over, there will be many, many changes made in an effort to make things fairer ... but certain folks will benefit from the timing there, while others will be screwed. Such is life, I guess.

ITA.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I
However, they also got all level fours at the GP final from Technical Specialist David Kirby (Tech Asst. David Moellenkamp, Tech Controller Marina Sanaia), so if there is a conspiracy afoot, everyone seems to be in on it.MM

MM - I'm beginning to believe you are hoping for a conspiracy. There just isn't going to be one. Each Tech Asst is going to call what is best for his brethren. He's not conspiring with anyone. He's doing what comes naturally.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And MM, I'm with you - there are a WHOLE lot of people that seem to be in on whatever conspiracies are going on.DG

Especially Mathman. He's the only one that brings it up.

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

Especially Mathman. He's the only one that brings it up.

Joe

That's because he's so smart!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just to understand the alternate POV.DG

The alternate POV: Some posters suck up the scores and swallow them; others, like me, suck 'em up and spit 'em out.

I really do appreciate your and MM's work on the scoring but neither of you go into any creative thought as to who the judges were and whether their are similarities in thought. NOT IN CONSPIRACY OR COLLUSION but in similar ways of thinking. Such as so and so has been very ill, let's give that skater the benefit of any doubts; Asian skaters do not have the European flair (which is required?); the skater is doing exactly the style I like and I am not open to any other; That skater has had his/her time and its past, should have retired long ago; as an elitest I grew up with the concept that winning is everything and I must see to it that any skaters from my background is in the mix. Etc., etc., etc.

Joe