How Do Carriere and Abbott Fit in the US Nats? | Golden Skate

How Do Carriere and Abbott Fit in the US Nats?

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
This is not a prediction thread It's just for discussion on how the two young hopefuls fit in the mix. In other words are Lysacek and Weir vulnerable?

for me, Abbott has gotten more used to competitive skating and is able to calm his nerves. Carriere has surprised me somewhat recently and I think he too will be trying his best. (Rippon has a way to go, imo.)

I think Weir and Lysacek must consider they are not the only guys at US Nats.
 
I've felt since seeing Jeremy Abbott at the 2007 Nationals that he has the best skating skills, choreography, and most exciting programs of any US man. I think his background of being a former ice dancer and pairs skater has really benefited him. His nemesis has been inconsistency and I have always felt that if he just went out and executed cleanly, he could be US champ. If he continues to build a reputation like he displayed at Cup of China with the judges, then watch out USA . . . we may have a new National Champion! His skating hearkens back to the classical era of John Curry and Robin Cousins. He has very pleasing line, complex steps and jump difficulty, and a captivating sensitivity to music. If he is consistent, he can be a great champion! I am so thrilled with the start of his season! For me, his skating has the same entrancing quality of Stephane Lambiel, Jeff Buttle, and Matt Savoie . . . I can't take my eyes off of him when he is on the ice. :love::bow:
 
I think Weir and Lysacek must consider they are not the only guys at US Nats.
And I think they might have noticed that themselves.

But first of all, the US-people here should celebrate. All that whining about the Ladies - but the Men won 6 out of 9 medals on the GP-circuit so far. That's freaking amazing. And they do that while being themselves, they are lyrical, they are corny, they are hyperactive, they are athletic, they are artistic. It's really great to watch.

Abbott is a top contender, no question about that. He is so complete as a skater, it's awesome. The spins are Buttle-Lambiel-children, his musicality is outstanding - I would love a bit more extension sometimes, but then again relaxed body movements are also his forte. That Triple Loop deserves a place in the Figure Skating Jumps Hall of Fame, right next to Lambiel's and Asada's. He needs zero preperation for that jump, just adds it at the end of some footwork, it's incredible. We also know that the guy had a good Quad at the end of last season. So I don't think that Abbott is just a top contender for the US-Nats - with efforts like these two - he is a top contender for Worlds.

I love lots of skating styles, from Joubert to Lambiel, from Yagudin to Weir, from Abbott to Préaubert - but I don't really like Carriere's. He has fantastic elements, the variations on his jumps are good and impressive, he is quite fast over the ice. His spins are average, jumps are a bit low over the ice, he has fast rotations though. But something's missing. Perhaps he just needs a bit more time to develop a distinctive skating personality. But if he is on - and the others are not as on - he can very well compete with the best.

Don't forget Bradley! He has monster high-scoring elements with that powerful 3A and 4T, he has definitely a distinctive skating personality - and he got not too low PCS (considering his lack of skating skills). I just loved his presentation last week, I don't think he should be underestimated.

Rippon - well. Perhaps he should have done a Borudulin and tried his first Senior outing without the 3A. Though I don't think it will be a good long term strategy for Borudulin, it just worked at COC. But Rippon also seemed to be a bit blocked at SA, extremely nervous - there was no flair, it wasn't as enchanting as he was last season. I hope that he will - with all the pressure basically off at COR - just skate and be himself again.

I was deeply disappointed with Mroz at SC though. I remembered someone else from last season, I actually thought that he would be the one who can challenge for a spot on the Worlds team. And he got the Quad over the summer - but his presentation was zero, a big big zero. He was way too slow, his jumps looked tentative, even the ones that were landed well. I thought that Mroz had the potential to be the US-Joubert. But his coaches also didn't help with those programs, they should have given him Matrix, Metallica, a Beatles - Medley, techno music for heaven's sake... Something that would give Mroz some reason to be out there. That's it - he looked as if he didn't know why he was out there on the ice. A man without a mission.

And about Johnny: the question is - SA - is that all he can do? Is a tentative, slow 7,5 Triple performance with a botched Quad and lackluster spins all Johnny can do - or did he just need more time to really fill the choreography? Can he actually do a real Quad? Can he actually pull off a program like Nationals this year, with power, emotions and drama - on a regular basis? Because that's what he needs, to be really convincing, to be a top contender, not someone who picks up the left-overs if the big guns don't deliver or Abbott, Bradley and Carriere get the jitters at Nationals. I never thought I would say that about Johnny, but he needs to upgrade his presentation, his speed, the execution on his spins... He has the means to be up there, he has good Triples except for the edge problem on the Flip, his spins have good positions and are well-centered, his edges are good during the footwork - it just didn't seem to come together at SA, or at Worlds this year for that matter.

Evan needs to fix his jumps. He always needed to fix his jumps and suddenly the tech-people noticed it too. I am no fan of his, but the programs this season are typical Evan-programs and with good jumps should be good enough. I still can't explain the PCS drop at Skate Canada (Evan lost 6 points PCS in the matter of one week) - perhaps they had musical judges there and they noticed that Evan is not that musical. I do think though that the PCS will be higher again and SC just a fluke.

That's my 2 cents!
 
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And about Johnny: the question is - SA - is that all he can do?
Hey it's good that you aren't giving him a break or anything. xD ;)
I would think you should know that [what he can do], having watched him skate for years now, yes?

Anyway, I thought Johnny was reasonably good for this early/the start of the season. Not amazing with the new programs yet, but definitely good effort and keeping with the consistency from last season.
 
Hey it's good that you aren't giving him a break or anything. xD ;)
I would think you should know that [what he can do], having watched him skate for years now, yes?

Anyway, I thought Johnny was reasonably good for this early/the start of the season. Not amazing with the new programs yet, but definitely good effort and keeping with the consistency from last season.
Oh come on, I so did give him a break. ;) I said "or did he just need more time to really fill the choreography?". I know, I know - it's this pessimistic streak. You should have heard me last season after Lambiel's outings at COC and COR and Swiss Nationals, I was ready to drown myself - till GPF that is.

And it is really good that Johnny got his consistency back, without a question. But it's also a fact that lots of these guys can do 8-Triple performances. And since the very first thing I saw from Johnny was "Valse Triste", live at the Worlds 2004, in Dortmund - I just have certain expectations.
 
I like that we're seeing a deep field in US men's again...

Evan and Johnny are now where Tim, Mike, and Matt were when they hit the scene. Hopefully they can still bring to the competition what Tim and Mike seemed to struggle with. We'll see in a couple months!
 
You should have heard me last season after Lambiel's outings at COC and COR and Swiss Nationals, I was ready to drown myself .
hee I know the feeling, believe me.

Which is why I can't help but be incredibly happy that Johnny has the consistency back again so I don't have to watch in fear. *thinks of the Olympic season and the one after*
Everything else, will come together if he wants it to.

But it's also a fact that lots of these guys can do 8-Triple performances.
Yes but does anybody do them as pretty? ;) hah You don't have to answer that. But I'll always be incurably in love with Johnny's jumping technique among other things.
 
I feel that Carriere still lacks the finesse of Abbott. I watch Stephen's COC programs this season and still see moments where his skating appears junior-ish to me. Jeremy interprets music much better and utilizes his arms better than Stephen, just my opinion. I prefer Jeremy's long body lines to Stephen's short body lines. I do like Carriere's sit-hop-sit spin and his tano toe loop combinations. He is a very steady technical skater, but IMO, is still missing that WOW factor artistically that Abbott has.

Ryan Bradley's skating skills, choreography, and transitions are all below that of Abbott, Weir, Lysacek, Carriere, and Rippon, IMO. I don't like the cheesiness of his skating style either.
 
Johnny and Evan pretty much are shoe in's for the top 3. Since we get 3 men who go to worlds, i think Abott is the strongest 3rd. Ryan Bradely twice made the world team with inconsistant jumps and sub-par skating skills. I have yet to see anything very impressive from Carriere or Ripon as of yet.
 
Ryan Bradley has only made 1 world team in 2007 when he finished 15th.
 
Johnny and Evan pretty much are shoe in's for the top 3.

Really? I definitely not going to count them out (that would just be silly), but the fact is Johnny was rather dry (I cannot believe I'm saying that about him) at SA; it may just be like he said and he's not comfortable skating at the very start of the season. I'm hoping for a big improvement by NHK (in both his skating and in choreography).
Evan's had problems with his jumps that were just started to get attention from the judges (after he took the quad out of his repertoire, permanently or not), and his PCS dropped.

If Jeremy can just get consistently clean, I do think he is the strongest and I would hope that he could win Nationals.

Stephen is still a bit lackluster, but there is improvement over last season. He's very steady on the jumps, although he does seem to have lost some height on them from last season. I think he just needs more time to develop a personality on the ice that will set him apart.

Despite his struggles at SA, I thought Adam looked better in overall carriage, flow and speed. If he could get that 3A consistent I personally would not count him out. He's another one who I think just needs more time. Adam, IMO, also looks a lot taller than last season, and it's definitely hard enough to master harder jumps without the growth spurts, so this may also be causing a problem. I'm hoping he'll get more comfortable though.

Ryan does not have strong skating skills, and his choreography doesn't really make up for that fact IMO. He's fun to watch, but there's lots of room to improve still.

Brandon...his programs just don't suit him IMO and I think that's what keeping me from being able to develop a set opinion of him. I agree with Medusa that he looked a bit lost.
 
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I think we should wait for the second GP to see if Jeremy, Stephen and Ryan can deliver again, or this was a one-time flash. You can have a skate of your life, but maintaining this level is extremely difficult, and those guys were far from being consistent before.
 
I think we should wait for the second GP to see if Jeremy, Stephen and Ryan can deliver again, or this was a one-time flash. You can have a skate of your life, but maintaining this level is extremely difficult, and those guys were far from being consistent before.

Totally agree with that. We'll see how this season progresses but IMO Jeremy shows the most promise. I saw him at the last Nationals and he was very good then and the audience loved him.
I expect to see an improvement for Johnny at NHK trophy. He has been on the upswing since being with his new coaching team & I expect that to continue towards the Olympics.
 
I like jeremy Abbott's skating, he's almost up there with Stephane Lambiel. Now that he retired, I have to root for Jeremy.
 
I root for Jeremy since last year's US national, not as a US top skater but simply as a skater. He has everything it takes to be a great skater!

Never liked Lacak (?)'s skating, too pretentious and he just doesn't get the music.
 
Jeremy and Stephen's programs at CoC make me me think maybe cop hasn't killed figure skating. Both of them had musical, athletic, balanced programs ... I thought it was no longer possible ... and speaking of possible ... if they keep skating like this ANYTHING is possible.
 
I think we should wait for the second GP to see if Jeremy, Stephen and Ryan can deliver again, or this was a one-time flash. You can have a skate of your life, but maintaining this level is extremely difficult, and those guys were far from being consistent before.
ITA. I think as fans there's a tendency to get excited about new talent, and that's fine, but we should remember that most of the skaters being discussed have not yet proven that they can win the big ones, or win consistently. I liked Abbott at 2008 Worlds and thought he was great at CoC, but as you note, staying consistent is really hard, and I'd like to see skaters maintain a high level of skating for a longer period of time before I get excited.

Jeremy and Stephen's programs at CoC make me me think maybe cop hasn't killed figure skating. Both of them had musical, athletic, balanced programs ...
I don't think CoP killed innovation and creativity in figure skating. Certainly not in men's skating, with skaters of such different styles and appraches doing well. It is harder and maybe takes more time and effort to put together an interesting program that'll get a good score. But a lot of skaters have been forced to work on their weaker points to succeed, and on the whole I think programs are better balanced as a result. The scoring still needs to be adjusted, but at least it's not just about counting who has the most clean jumps anymore.

I'm not sold on Stephen Carriere. Like museksk8r, I feel he lacks finesse and it looks to me that he still needs to work on his presentation. This might come in time, but for now I don't find his programs particularly exciting, even when skated well.
 
Jeremy and Stephen's programs at CoC make me me think maybe cop hasn't killed figure skating.

There has been lots and lots of beautiful programmes by various skaters during CoP. In no way has that system killed the figure skating, quite the opposite, in my opinion. Of course the system still needs adjusting, the PCS scores are often like presentation scores earlier = the skater with a reputation will be held up.
 
There has been lots and lots of beautiful programmes by various skaters during CoP. In no way has that system killed the figure skating, quite the opposite, in my opinion. Of course the system still needs adjusting, the PCS scores are often like presentation scores earlier = the skater with a reputation will be held up.

my thoughts, exactly! :rock:
 
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