How much interest can Alysa Liu revive in figure skating in the US?

[TallyT]

One thing I noticed (because I am, well, me) is the storybook feeling of Alysa's rise and win. Not only the way she was a child prodigy, pushed too hard and too fast and who quit with a 'never skating again' resolve, then to come back on her own terms and in her own way. That in itself is a good story.

But then the Olympics itself on top of that. Before it even started, I saw an absolute plethora of people online and media blithely preawarding the US a pretty much golden sweep except for pairs (and honestly? I even saw some folk predicting a total sweep including pairs though with amusing vagueness as to who the pair would actually be). I guess from outside the fandom Chock/Bates did look like a sure thing; from outside and inside Malinin certainly seemed like it and his own pr played it up like crazy; there was the cheesy but effective 'Blade Angels' thingy that might have made it look like the US girls were more of a certainty than they were. And then the team win (even if some of us side eye it) made it all seem more sweep-in-the-making.

And then the US were pipped for ID, Malinin crashed spectacularly and pairs... well, did what we knew pairs would do. So in a sense, from an outsider's point of view, pride definitely wenteth before a fall (or more) until she came out with that hair and a golden dress (which it occurs to me would have been mocked remorselessly had she not won) and saved the day with a happy ending and a skate that was more about emotion than techwhizzbangery.

So hey, of course press and public love it. And her. But will that love last past worlds and till next season? Maybe... but were I her manager I would be suggesting sell the story to Netflix for a movie right now.

 

[rabidline]

One interesting thing to me is how this whole thing exploded form nothing (or from not all that much of anything, anyway) into this cyclone of hope and speculation. When it comes to the Olympics, it is better to win than to finish second.

Wow, what a groundbreaking revelation, winning gold is better than silver

 

[rabidline]

Olympic gold medalist Alysa Liu brings her joy, inspiration to figure skating exhibition at Skating Club of Boston - The Boston Globe

“I just want my art to inspire other art,” said Liu.

www.bostonglobe.com

A paragraph that I thought was relevant:

Liu has attracted a new crowd of fans who previously had not considered figure skating a modern women’s sport. Her discussions about mental health and training on her own terms appealed to sports fans who previously concentrated their fandom on the WNBA, PWHL, and NWSL. Several admitted skating newcomers waiting in line to meet Liu donned shirts that read “Everyone Watches Women’s Sports.”​

​

Alysa is really uniquely positioned to influence this shift in perspective on figure skating for this particular new audience in America. Whether her influence will turn out to bring sustainable, positive and profitable impact, we will see.

 

[Mathman]

Alysa and Ilia each have different target markets - they're kind of similar to KPOP girl groups and KPOP boy groups. The girl groups get the more massive share of general public attention and love but get left behind when younger groups rise up, the boy groups have less general public support but have a bigger dedicated fandom who are very very loyal regardless of output.

As a general observer, when it comes to young men, the fastest way to gain loyal fans is to make the fans feel protective and sympathetic for them.

How very interesting. So the thesis is that fans feel the need to protect, nurture and "mother" their little boys but not their little girls?

 

[rabidline]

How very interesting. So the thesis is that fans feel the need to protect, nurture and "mother" their little boys but not their little girls?

Yes. That's where the "boymom fans" term comes from. The loyalty is based on how the young men needs to be protected from the injustice of the world against them, and how their hard work needs to be appreciated, and how the fans "know better" how to support their careers to become bigger stars. See - the KPOP boy groups. See - the Heated Rivalry guys. See - Timothee Chalamet.

Too much internalized and unconscious envy from this particular type of fans to do the same for the young women unfortunately. Especially when the women gets more beautiful (as they get older) and more successful and more attractive to men. It's not uncommon to see these kind of fans being the first ones pitting the successful women against each other, claiming that other less popular women are more deserving to get the attention compared to the more popular women. Uncharitable takes on their character as well, "being mindful about mental health" becomes "privileged and overscored so no need to be nervous about scores" .

But I have been observing at least the WNBA fandom as well - and while they had their issues (especially about how differences in treatment of athletes based on race) - their fans know the importance of proving that people watch Women's Sports (hence the T-Shirt mentioned in the Boston Globes write-up) because the issue there is the comparison with the Men's side of the sport. So there is this need to prove that they have the viewership and support, that the Women's side of the sport is profitable. IDK if that can be translated to support of Women's figure skating (especially since it's more of a global sport compared to WNBA and PWHL), but the confirmation that the fans are turning their heads to figure skating because of Alysa is interesting to me.

 

[TallyT]

The thing is, it's less than two weeks since she went from not all that well known (niche sport and all that, despite the Blade Angels stuff) to the latest 'ooooh shiny' of American-centric social media. And next there is Worlds and even if she wins (and she may not, several women including Kaori and Amber could crash the party) we then have a looooong off season with some (but not a huge number of) shows and whatever sponsorship/media her team can get while the shiny lasts. Meanwhile other sports will take spotlight.

Give the girl some time before we crown her - or not.

 

[Anna K.]

Alysa and Ilia each have different target markets - they're kind of similar to KPOP girl groups and KPOP boy groups. The girl groups get the more massive share of general public attention and love but get left behind when younger groups rise up, the boy groups have less general public support but have a bigger dedicated fandom who are very very loyal regardless of output.

As a general observer, when it comes to young men, the fastest way to gain loyal fans is to make the fans feel protective and sympathetic for them. The more the fans feel that the men need to be "protected" , the more loyal they are. Ilia's problem was that he clearly had so many points ahead of his competitors, there's really nothing to "protect" him from. With that sort of meltdown, ironically, he may have endeared himself to many people than if he had won it routinely. There are basically a lot of sympathy angles they can take with him from this Olympics, including spinning his individual loss as a sacrifice he made for the team win.

Not a good prospect for Ilia then: his out-of-podium finish does not expose him to audience other than those who already are figure skating fans. But the "already fans" have their "already boys-to-protect" - given the constant splatfests in Men's category, there is a choice of adoptees for every taste. In this type of fandom, they will keep their loyalty regardless of the outcome, so there is not much chance for Ilia to be seen as something else than a threat to their protected boys the same way he was always seen.

Contrary for Alysa, a short flick in a news reel was enough to make skating-uninterested people ask: "Who is that girl with beautiful hair who became the new Olympic champion?" Everything else just added to the snowball: an appealing backstory, an appealing skating, an appealing personality. So, while the unsuspecting "already fans" went on with their regular sour grapes in community forums like our one, the avalanche formed in the outside world.

But I have been observing at least the WNBA fandom as well - and while they had their issues (especially about how differences in treatment of athletes based on race) - their fans know the importance of proving that people watch Women's Sports (hence the T-Shirt mentioned in the Boston Globes write-up) because the issue there is the comparison with the Men's side of the sport. So there is this need to prove that they have the viewership and support, that the Women's side of the sport is profitable. IDK if that can be translated to support of Women's figure skating (especially since it's more of a global sport compared to WNBA and PWHL), but the confirmation that the fans are turning their heads to figure skating because of Alysa is interesting to me.

I am with you here: it will be really interesting to watch what further development this will take!

 

[skatesofgold]

One thing I noticed (because I am, well, me) is the storybook feeling of Alysa's rise and win. Not only the way she was a child prodigy, pushed too hard and too fast and who quit with a 'never skating again' resolve, then to come back on her own terms and in her own way. That in itself is a good story.

But then the Olympics itself on top of that. Before it even started, I saw am absolute plethora of people online and media blithely preawarding the US a pretty much golden sweep except for pairs (and honestly? I even saw some folk predicting a total sweep including pairs though with amusing vagueness as to who the pair would actually be). I guess from outside the fandom Chock/Bates did look like a sure thing; from outside and inside Malinin certainly seemed like it and his own pr played it up like crazy; there was the cheesy but effective 'Blade Angels' thingy that might have made it look like the US girls were more of a certainty than they were. And then the team win (even if some of us side eye it) made it all seem more sweep-in-the-making.

And then the US were pipped for ID, Malinin crashed spectacularly and pairs... well, did what we knew pairs would do. So in a sense, from an outsider's point of view, pride definitely wenteth before a fall (or more) until she came out with that hair and a golden dress (which it occurs to me would have been mocked remorselessly had she not won) and saved the day with a happy ending and a skate that was more about emotion than techwhizzbangery.

So hey, of course press and public love it. And her. But will that love last past worlds and till next season? Maybe... but were I her manager I would be suggesting sell the story to Netflix for a movie right now.

I side-eye the Blade Angels thing because I think it was trying too hard to be like the US women's Olympic gymnastics teams who always come up with a name. I feel like it's no longer an organic thing like the Magnificent 7 in 1996.

 

[Mathman]

I personally am loving all this. Even if Alysa-mania dies a natural death over time, right now figure skating in the U.S. is the beneficiary of a welcome shot in the arm.

The most remarkable thing is the whole business of "I don't care about medals, I just want to skate and have fun." Every female figure skater who ever lived has come out with proclamations of this type. Sonja Henie, the GOAT of cut-throat competitive skaters ,wrote in her autobiography all about, "oh the feeling of the wind whistling through my hair as I glide in ecstasy over the pristine ice...." In the meantime her father was negotiating with the German secret police to detain Sonja's skating rival at the border and hold her until the skating competition was over. Sonja's brother's response to the whistling wind was, oh yeah, well when are you going to pay back the money you swindled me out of in that California land deal?

Alysa has cool hair? A couple of years ago Kaori Sakamoto skated as a blonde. Responses ranged from, "who cares" to "she looks ridiculous."

Oh well. Perfect storm. Go, Alysa!

 

[R.D.]

I will only speak for myself, but I don’t know if I would have watched any of the Olympics or made the trip to Worlds last year if it hadn’t been for Liu being in the mix for gold. Not that I was expecting her to win - that was a nice surprise - but there was something about witnessing that moment that sort of “reawakened”, even if momentarily, the skatefan in me. It has been many, many years at this point since I’ve been to any local shows and I might start looking again this year to see if there’s anything out there. But I’m probably not going to go out of my way for it…

ETA: I feel like this topic has come up before and any infusion is only temporary…the most you might see in the long-term is the next crop of young skaters citing her as inspiration for starting their own careers.

 

[Mathman]

ETA: I feel like this topic has come up before and any infusion is only temporary…the most you might see in the long-term is the next crop of young skaters citing her as inspiration for starting their own careers.

Someone once posted a short clip taken at their local rink. A bunch of skaters at various levels were out on the ice and the rink manager decided to play Michelle Kwan's Lyra Angelica music. Every one of the skaters, beginners on up, immediately broke into doing their interpretation of Michelle's program (substituting jumps, etc., as they were able.)

 

[el henry]

I would just like to jump in with a word about "hype".

Everyone is "hyped" in the US. Not necessarily a bad word. Football fans wait for their team's "hype" video before big games, and it is not an insult. Super fan Bradley Cooper has narrated Eagles hype videos. Everyone accepts it is a hype video and all the fans want to see it. We are usually .... a word doing a lot of heavy lifting... not taken in by sports hype. It's part of our sporting culture.

In the general public, a skater battling for the gold, going for the gold, out for gold: no one thinks that means the skater is a lock for gold. Everyone is going for the gold The Taylor Swift promo with the Blade Angels (a silly name) was just that, promo. And a great one, I thought. In the real world, outside of skating fandom, hardly anybody knew these skaters.

Alysa's popularity now is beyond anything that "hype" could do. USFS could only in their dreams wish for this. Now will it last and what will they do?

 

[freedomlover]

So..... I'm neither American nor use Instagram a lot, but I am what you would call "in the target group" for the ISU currently. Apart from my personal upsets with how the women's free turned out, I think a lot of people are happy for Alysa- it's a feel good story you have to like. As for her using Stateside as well as it going viral and everything; it will be a good push for her to stay on Gen Z/Gen Alpha's radar if she and her team care to profit off of it, but I am skeptical about whether this will actually get people into skating who didn't already have the possibilities already.

Going off of a tangent here, but-

The reason for FS talent and a lot of youth sports decline is simple- lack of funding and outreach. If your parents arent already wealthy or live in a country where talent gets scouted early, the sport is too inaccessible and too expensive. Full Olympic practices vs. emptier competitions show this.
Granted, a lot of figure skating's appeal comes from being seen as an elegant, artistic sport- but if you don't get rid of the elitism and nepotism that is plaguing a lot of federations, you're practically never having a sustainable interest in the sport.
I think that's what keeps the partly interest in Russia alive, for example. Part of the appeal is that you train hard enough (and get the right at the right time), you can be a national superstar.

I know politics shouldn't be mentioned on here too, I have seen US leftist circles as well as other orgs pointing out her father's shady dealings- and while they have nothing to do with Alysa the person, that coupled with MAGA using her to bash Glenn (I don't say this lightly) as well as things going down the rail everywhere right now, there's not enough day-to-day attention to cash in on the general public's attention maybe? Who knows.

 

[Isk]

Oh, and I think it's more important that the interest in revived in the media. TV people know how to promote stuff. The problem is telecommunication format has changed so much that I don't know how much one can rely on past practices. Many of us watch internet streams, and promotions are done through social networks. Those are different modes, more distributed and spontaneous, right? I mean those stories about skaters that TV used to air and shows they made out of every competition, with Terry Gannon and Dick Button making an informative show of commentating, that was very useful, but also TV was the only way to watch back then, and now it's not. So again I doubt one can rely on these strategies now. Now we have multiple YouTube channels where people talk about figure skating, there is a lot of choice, but many of them kinda talk about themselves more than about skaters, it's not a concentrated, attractive and fun mode of providing information. The press is non-informative. The best YouTube channels talk about technicalities and do analyses, and this is very useful, but the audience seems limited to people who are willing to invest time in understanding the rules, I think it's a small audience.

 

[moonvine]

Olympic gold medalist Alysa Liu brings her joy, inspiration to figure skating exhibition at Skating Club of Boston - The Boston Globe

“I just want my art to inspire other art,” said Liu.

www.bostonglobe.com

A paragraph that I thought was relevant:

Liu has attracted a new crowd of fans who previously had not considered figure skating a modern women’s sport. Her discussions about mental health and training on her own terms appealed to sports fans who previously concentrated their fandom on the WNBA, PWHL, and NWSL. Several admitted skating newcomers waiting in line to meet Liu donned shirts that read “Everyone Watches Women’s Sports.”​

​

Alysa is really uniquely positioned to influence this shift in perspective on figure skating for this particular new audience in America. Whether her influence will turn out to bring sustainable, positive and profitable impact, we will see.

Spirts fans who concentrate their fandom on the WNBA, PWHL, and NWSL are a pretty small subset.
Those sports also have easy to understand scoring.

 

[moonvine]

Yes. That's where the "boymom fans" term comes from. The loyalty is based on how the young men needs to be protected from the injustice of the world against them, and how their hard work needs to be appreciated, and how the fans "know better" how to support their careers to become bigger stars. See - the KPOP boy groups. See - the Heated Rivalry guys. See - Timothee Chalamet.

Too much internalized and unconscious envy from this particular type of fans to do the same for the young women unfortunately. Especially when the women gets more beautiful (as they get older) and more successful and more attractive to men. It's not uncommon to see these kind of fans being the first ones pitting the successful women against each other, claiming that other less popular women are more deserving to get the attention compared to the more popular women. Uncharitable takes on their character as well, "being mindful about mental health" becomes "privileged and overscored so no need to be nervous about scores" .

But I have been observing at least the WNBA fandom as well - and while they had their issues (especially about how differences in treatment of athletes based on race) - their fans know the importance of proving that people watch Women's Sports (hence the T-Shirt mentioned in the Boston Globes write-up) because the issue there is the comparison with the Men's side of the sport. So there is this need to prove that they have the viewership and support, that the Women's side of the sport is profitable. IDK if that can be translated to support of Women's figure skating (especially since it's more of a global sport compared to WNBA and PWHL), but the confirmation that the fans are turning their heads to figure skating because of Alysa is interesting to me.

But women’s figure skating has always been the marquee event (in the US, anyway)

 

[moonvine]

Sure. Imagine alternative ending: Ilia goes to the olymlic games as a heavy favorite and he wins Gold, as the prophecy foretold. American fans are proud, Ilia's fans are happy, figure skating fans are not surprised. End of story. See you in four years.
But he didn't win gold, even though every commentator on earth was sure he would. Snoop Dogg showed up, all the attention was on the Quad God, olympic channel was full of his shenanigans, even the most random viewers were aware of him. And then he crumbled under pressure. Casual viewers don't care about the quad axel, or any other quad for that matter, they can't tell jumps apart and they can't count that fast, but! They can feel sympathy for a young man who had his worst moment broadcasted live and witnessed by milions. I've seen it all over my feed: the support from people who couldn't care less about figure skating. The interest was there. Even my family was asking me, if he is truly as good as the hype suggested. And now we have a story to continue: can he get the Gold in four years time? Can he redeem himself and stay on top? We know he is not an underdog and that he will probably win (with ease) many more titles in upcoming seasons, but new fans don't know that - they can root for him, show him support and cheer on him, because they had different first impression. And he showed himself as a great human being - that helps a ton too. If we want to promote figure skating by promoting one figure skater - this is the time to do this. This is the time to slap Ilia's face everywhere, while people still care and are willing to support him and show up for him. His next win could bring a lot of joy to new fans.

Edit: important side note: I'm not saying we *should* do that. I'm saying I can see it working. Like, you know, theoretically.

And many people on the Internet are screaming about how much of a loser Amber is for coming in 5th. And a substantial contingent are insisting she’s trans. No idea where that one came from.
So I think it is interesting that there is so much empathy for Ilia coming in 8th.

 

[yfan1]

Yes. That's where the "boymom fans" term comes from. The loyalty is based on how the young men needs to be protected from the injustice of the world against them, and how their hard work needs to be appreciated, and how the fans "know better" how to support their careers to become bigger stars. See - the KPOP boy groups. See - the Heated Rivalry guys. See - Timothee Chalamet.

I actually do feel that online fans of male skaters are like this, and I think the sport is worse for it.

However, I disagree that female skaters suffer from what you said. Yes, they tend to be very visible to the general public and face all kinds of hideous scrutiny - but we all still remember and respect Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Midori Ito, Mao Asada. They didn't get 'replaced' by the new younger ones in our minds. If anything, those younger ones were constantly criticized for not being able to measure up.

 

[rabidline]

However, I disagree that female skaters suffer from what you said. Yes, they tend to be very visible to the general public and face all kinds of hideous scrutiny - but we all still remember and respect Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Midori Ito, Mao Asada. They didn't get 'replaced' by the new younger ones in our minds. If anything, those younger ones were constantly criticized for not being able to measure up.

But all the women you mentioned are retired and securely "away" from competition. Of course they are remembered with respect - there is zero threat of them winning medals and breaking world records right now. They are "safe" choices for certain types of fans to admire. Forever crystallized in the perfect programs everyone linked whenever they feel dissatisfied with the current state of skating.

The logic remains the same. Only "perfect" women deserves admiration, but perfect women don't exist. In KPOP the general public move quite fast to younger, "purer" girl groups. Maybe more similar to figure skating fans who said they are watching juniors and novices since the older women are not exciting anymore.

 

[yfan1]

But all the women you mentioned are retired and securely "away" from competition. Of course they are remembered with respect - there is zero threat of them winning medals and breaking world records right now. They are "safe" choices for certain types of fans to admire. Forever crystallized in the perfect programs everyone linked whenever they feel dissatisfied with the current state of skating.

This is what you said about female skaters, likening them to girl groups:

Alysa and Ilia each have different target markets - they're kind of similar to KPOP girl groups and KPOP boy groups. The girl groups get the more massive share of general public attention and love but get left behind when younger groups rise up,

I do not find any indication that older women have been 'left behind' in the sport. Carolina Kostner, when she was competing against Russian girls, was more respected. Kaori Sakamoto, yet again, respected against the younger girls (of whom Alysa is one). Many many fans had nothing but criticism about the younger skaters from Russia, and instead pointed out how skaters like Ashley Wagner and Tuktamysheva - very flawed skaters, to be sure - skated like 'real women' and therefore were worthy of more respect. Mao Asada, against younger girls, was still the most respected Japanese skater, period, during her comeback.

Since you bring up Korean celebrities, Yuna Kim still ranks among the top of them, 12 years after retirement. Speaking strictly about singers, her protegee IU, yet another person who spends time at the top of Korean celebrity lists.

So I agree female celebrities are more recognizable and better liked by the general public. It's honestly revealing to see BTS ranking only 5th or 6th on some of those lists. But I don't see how it's translated to women getting 'dropped' in favour of younger athletes in skating when it comes to fandom. Not at all.