How to spot the improvement of skaters’ skating skills

[Anna K.]

Have to say it though ... there's a difference between skating skills improving, and a skater's skating skills MARKS increasing over time (which is often more about them skating cleanly rather than significant intra-season improvements.

Alina Zagitova's SS for her 2017 cup of China FS was 8.39, with no judge giving her 9's or higher. (https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpchn2017/gpchn2017_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf). By the Olympics, her SS was 9.32 with every judge giving her 9's or higher. From November 3 to February 23, her skating skills did not improve from a grade of 83.9% to 93.2%. https://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_LadiesSingleSkating_FS_Scores.pdf

Lipnitskaia was 7.61 at Skate Canada (https://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2013/gpcan2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf), and was 8.64 in the team event at the Olympics (https://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_TeamLadies_FS_F_Scores.pdf) - and 8.68 in the individual FS where she fell ( https://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf - and just 8.75 for Mao Asada).

Yes, I remember that era. I did not follow figure skating very closely then. But, based on general info from our Olympic judge, in that period of IJS development the policy was that PCS should be tied to TES. So, the highest TES should automatically receive the highest PCS and if the TES was hurt, like, if skaters fell a lot, then their PCS should be lowered as well. According to this, Surya of 1991 would receive at least 8+ PCS, which would be of course... very fun. So they tweaked the rules once again and now the PCS is capped in case of falls but not very much and the highest TES does not guarantee the highest PCS. Although it's usually not far behind.

But this is not the discussion that this thread was created for - this thread was created to talk about skill difference that can be seen with an eye, not to analyze specific judges' marks or discuss how PCS should e awarded.

I agree. But to the prior points, I do find that when a skater is not delivering the elements, or doesn't feel entirely comfortable out there, they start pushing off their toe, or their edges flatten. They skate with less "power/speed". They might miss exit and entrance transitions and leave out choreo that may reduce the "variety of edges/steps/turns/movements/directions" than they would otherwise exhibit if they were performing cleanly. They may sacrifice clarity of edge because they're just not into the performance/phone it in.

Can you bring up some video evidence and put a finger on if?

Like I said, this thread is not a discussion about how the PCS should be judged. However, in terms of skating skills that can be seen by an eye, this is a very interesting question: how much skating skills - or rather, the display of skating skills if we consider that a skill is something that a skater generally possesses - actually suffer when a skater has a bad day?

 

[4everchan]

This is Surya Bonaly in 1991:

And here we have Surya Bonaly in 2912:

she, indeed will have plenty of time to improve her skating skills by 2912

 

[4everchan]

CRAZY respect for being able to do a 3S at 39!

Midori Ito and Deanna Stellato aren't that impressed with that feat .

 

[Anna K.]

she, indeed will have plenty of time to improve her skating skills by 2912

Jokes aside, if you have issues like Surya had in 1991, that's about how long it takes to solve them.

When I did my research, I also looked up her performance in 2001. Her knee bend has improved there but not by much; there is still very minimal ankle bend, lots of straight legs and, of course, no loop turns or cantilevers.
But in 2012 - voilà!

 

[4everchan]

Jokes aside, if you have issues like Surya had in 1991, that's about how long it takes to solve them.

When I did my research, I also looked up her performance in 2001. Her knee bend has improved there but not by much; there is still very minimal ankle bend, lots of straight legs and, of course, no loop turns or cantilevers.
But in 2012 - voilà!

I think it depends on the focus of the skater. Surya could have improved her skating skills much earlier but she was jumps obsessed. Later in life, in 2912, she probably is enjoying skating a lot more than jumping.
Surya didn't have the greatest coaching arrangement to enlighten her about why her marks were always so much lower than other skaters, for instance, the exquisite Yuka Sato.

 

[Anna K.]

I think it depends on the focus of the skater. Surya could have improved her skating skills much earlier but she was jumps obsessed. Later in life, in 2912, she probably is enjoying skating a lot more than jumping.
Surya didn't have the greatest coaching arrangement to enlighten her about why her marks were always so much lower than other skaters, for instance, the exquisite Yuka Sato.

I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French?

 

[4everchan]

I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French?

Well, that's your hypothesis. I am pretty convinced that it's a question of focus rather than anatomy in this case. Surya was a gymnast and was powerful yet had a very flexible back. She performed a bunch of variations on Bielmann spins so I doubt her lack of skating skills in the 90s were due to her limited physical capacities. She was athletic. She was training quads and wanted to be the first woman to land them. I am pretty sure that her more recently acquired skating skills are due to a shift of focus, no longer chasing big jumps. As an athletic person with great physical attributes, I have a hard time believing that her anatomy prevented her from having great blade skills.

BTW : Patrick Chan isn't very flexible, yet, his skating skills are the best. Why ? Focus

 

[Anna K.]

Well, that's your hypothesis. I am pretty convinced that it's a question of focus rather than anatomy in this case. Surya was a gymnast and was powerful yet had a very flexible back. She performed a bunch of variations on Bielmann spins so I doubt her lack of skating skills in the 90s were due to her limited physical capacities. She was athletic. She was training quads and wanted to be the first woman to land them. I am pretty sure that her more recently acquired skating skills are due to a shift of focus, no longer chasing big jumps. As an athletic person with great physical attributes, I have a hard time believing that her anatomy prevented her from having great blade skills.

BTW : Patrick Chan isn't very flexible, yet, his skating skills are the best. Why ? Focus

No-no-no-no, don't twist my words! Not entire anatomy - ankles! The angle of her ankle

Maybe Patrick Chan could not scratch his left ear with his right foot but he had his ankle bent in a perfectly narrow angle. Why? Anatomy.

So, how about this one:

What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French?

Challenge accepted?

 

[4everchan]

No-no-no-no, don't twist my words! Not entire anatomy - ankles! The angle of her ankle

Maybe Patric Chan could not scratch his left ear with his right foot but he had his ankle bent in a perfectly narrow angle. Why? Anatomy.

So, how about this one:


Challenge accepted?

you can read her autobiography and watch the documentary about her ... it's all up there .

btw... maybe I am just suspicious because composers do not reveal all their secrets... do you really think that all skaters would admit having bad skating skills because their ankles are bad ? or that they deliberately chose to not focus on skating skills because they were chasing quads ? in a judged sport ? would everyone come out clean ? I mean, at least Surya denied the rumours that were spread that she was born on Réunion Island.... I mean, if her coach and mother were fabricating myths about her to generate some public attention, are you really sure you can trust any of the sources you and I would find ?

I will use my get free out of jail card on this one .

 

[Anna K.]

you can read her autobiography and watch the documentary about her ... it's all up there .

btw... maybe I am just suspicious because composers do not reveal all their secrets... do you really think that all skaters would admit having bad skating skills because their ankles are bad ? or that they deliberately chose to not focus on skating skills because they were chasing quads ? in a judged sport ? would everyone come out clean ? I mean, at least Surya denied the rumours that were spread that she was born on Réunion Island.... I mean, if her coach and mother were fabricating myths about her to generate some public attention, are you really sure you can trust any of the sources you and I would find ?

I will use my get free out of jail card on this one .

Why, people are free to keep their secrets if they prefer so. Fine for me I'm more interested into what they want to say and what they want to be their legacy.

Although I don't deny that I can't help feeling curious about this one. In one video, she apparently has bad* ankles. In the other video 20 years later, her ankles are fine. And I know that bad ankles are hell damn hard to fix. Of course, I want her to reveal the secret how she did it! Or explain it anyhow for chrissake
But if she chooses not to, well. It's up to her.


*depending on physical complexion, it may be absolutely healthy and normal that ankles do not bend much further than the ninety degree angle between foot and lower leg; so it's not necessarily a sign of a bad health condition - but it is in either case bad in the aspect that it sets physical limitations for skating skill development. In case of Surya Bonaly, it was Achilles tendon problem - ETA.

 

[4everchan]

Why, people are free to keep their secrets if they prefer so. Fine for me I'm more interested into what they want to say and what they want to be their legacy.

Although I don't deny that I can't help feeling curious about this one. In one video, she apparently has bad ankles. In the other video 20 years later, her ankles are fine. And I know that bad ankles are hell damn hard to fix. Of course, I want her to reveal the secret how she did it! Or explain it anyhow for chrissake
But if she chooses not to, well. It's up to her.

I have hyper mobility in ankles. I have been strengthening them all my life. Still hyper mobile and prone to sprain. I have developed a super power which is to look everywhere I set foot. It's quite practical to avoid dog poo too.

 

[Anna K.]

I have hyper mobility in ankles. I have been strengthening them all my life. Still hyper mobile and prone to sprain. I have developed a super power which is to look everywhere I set foot. It's quite practice to avoid dog poo too.

I will keep my ankle information private

And now, I'm off to look for the said Surya Bonaly documentary. I don't know how I got this far but I'm hooked

 

[Anna K.]

Eventually, this thread has so many tips and references and so few cases of users actually accepting the challenge that I changed the title yet again.

I hope that now it will be easier to find for users who want to learn more about Skating Skills and can serve as a worthy resource also after it goes to archive.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

When I earlier posted the previous generation ISU videos that explained the Skating Skills component, I didn't realize that these videos were supported by a set of examples:

Women, average
Women, good
Women, weak

Men, weak
Men, average
Men, good

Pairs, weak
Pairs, average
Pairs, good

Dance, weak
Dance, average
Dance, good

Hope you can use it as a reference!

Sorry, I had completely lost the thread! I've just watched the Women and wow! They're severe! Of course nobody can disagree with the order but Jennifer Kirk "just" average? Judges disagreed by the way, and I still find them a bit severe... or rather, the use of the scales have changed since? Today she would be given high 7s if not 8s given her passport (and I would find it high, I'm never content). Average is normally scored between 5 and 6 in IJS? And Yuka Sato, merely "good"? Who else can have this dynamic and smooth Waltz rhythm from skates to head, so many times in the program that it seems all along? It doesn't need only musicality, it needs and shows terrific Skating Skills (Kazuki Tomono hit it in his 2022-2023 Free Skate)! So many others have tried and failed! As to Surya Bonaly, she didn't have Skating Skills at the level of other Top Figure Skaters, but calling them "weak"?
Well, to those who yell here when anyone proposes any score below 8, if not 9, for today's weaker "top" Skaters, pretending that low Components are only for Juniors if not Novices (!), there's this reference...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think it depends on anatomy. Could be either but that's my bet in this particular case because in balletverse, if child's feet do not naturally fold like a Swiss knife, then ankle flexibility is the most complicated thing to improve. Some teachers would even prefer saying "you should not do ballet" and sending the child away. This is all about ligaments. You have to be very cautious with loads and go bit-by-bit here because, if you seriously wear or tear ligaments, it's game over.

Anyway, it would be interesting to learn Surya's true story because it seems to be quite unique. What if you say "focus" and I say "anatomy" and then we search Surya's interviews to find out what was behind the evolution of her skating style according to her? I search English sources and you search French?

Actually she did Gymnastics, particularly Tumbling, and I don't even remember if she was mentioned among Skaters who had also another Sport? She got a Hope World Medal and a Team Senior then stopped Tumbling but the toes indeed in Gymnastics, have a particular training, and maybe it did hinder her until "her toes/feet muscles forgot" and she could mould them to "pure" Figure Skating positions?

Quand la gymnastique forge une légende du patinage artistique : l’histoire de Surya Bonaly - SpotGym.fr

Avant d'avoir la grande carrière qu'elle a eue dans le patinage artistique, Surya Bonaly a pratiqué la gymnastique puis le tumbling à haut-niveau. Par Charlotte Laroche et Elisa Cohen Elle a découvert la gymnastique un peu par hasard. Alors que sa mère l'emmenait pour s'inscrire dans un club de...

www.spotgym.fr

She did say that these two Sports weren't training the same muscle.

 

[Anna K.]

Please, start a separate tread for score analysis!
Please, start a separate thread for different skater comparison!

This thread is supposed to be about tips how to recognize improved skating when comparing performances of the same skater after a lapse of time.
Please, contribute to this and take other discussions to appropriate threads!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Please, start a separate tread for score analysis!
Please, start a separate thread for different skater comparison!

This thread is supposed to be about tips how to recognize improved skating when comparing performances of the same skater after a lapse of time.
Please, contribute to this and take other discussions to appropriate threads!

There are ways to see improved skating skills over time. You'll see skaters become more confident with more difficult transitions into jumps and spins. You'll see them generate speed with fewer cross cuts. In the footwork sequences if you look at the turn series, you'll generally see deeper edges, and you'll see more multi-directional turns (which is something I specifically look for, because a CW twizzle or LFI loop on the left foot of a CCW "rightie" skater, for example is actually quite trickier and riskier. You'll also see more arm and body movements incorporated into turns and steps because the skater is more assured in their edge/blade control that upper/mid/low movements don't compromise their balance and execution of turns.

Often it comes down to a good choreographer/program too - I do think some skaters can actually challenge themselves with less two footed skating and incorporating more difficult turns in their choreo. I keep bringing up Plushenko in EC2012, where he exhibited far better skating skills than his 2006 or 2010 Olympic FS for example (and it's frustrating that he had not many real challenger post-Yagudin who could push him to showcase better SS - like if Jeffery Buttle had a consistent quad, or Lambiel had a consistent 3A, we might have seen more of the EC2012 Plushenko's SS capabilities). It's not to say he wasn't capable of that in 2006 - he perhaps just chose not to, because a clean skate would give him high PCS marks anyways including SS (even if his 2006 FS lacked difficult turns and had tons of two footed/uni-directional skating).

Not necessarily the case across all the board, but perhaps a secondary indication of SS growth is when skaters start opting for more lyrical/elegant/mature programs, because those ones require finesse in your skating including your edge/blade work (so toe pushes and things like that aren't in line with the theme). Hanyu's Chopin or Sui/Han's Bridge Over Troubled Water or Chan's Four Seasons or Arakawa/Uno's/Shen-Zhao's Turandot are programs I associate with better SS, because thematically they "require" the skater to have good speed/flow/finesse in order to execute the movements but still make them look effortless and aesthetically pleasing. Programs like Carmen or La Strada (omg.... if I see one more yawn!) or most of Stojko's programs (where it's almost in character to have staccato, less-flowy movements), or even in character to have quick steps and losses of balance, even if deliberate (e.g. Charlie Chaplin programs), I personally think do not optimally show off a skater's skating skills.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Actually she did Gymnastics, particularly Tumbling, and I don't even remember if she was mentioned among Skaters who had also another Sport? She got a Hope World Medal and a Team Senior then stopped Tumbling but the toes indeed in Gymnastics, have a particular training, and maybe it did hinder her until "her toes/feet muscles forgot" and she could mould them to "pure" Figure Skating positions?

Quand la gymnastique forge une légende du patinage artistique : l’histoire de Surya Bonaly - SpotGym.fr

Avant d'avoir la grande carrière qu'elle a eue dans le patinage artistique, Surya Bonaly a pratiqué la gymnastique puis le tumbling à haut-niveau. Par Charlotte Laroche et Elisa Cohen Elle a découvert la gymnastique un peu par hasard. Alors que sa mère l'emmenait pour s'inscrire dans un club de...

www.spotgym.fr

She did say that these two Sports weren't training the same muscle.

It must be interesting to switch from sticking landings on two feet to landing on one foot .

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It must be interesting to switch from sticking landings on two feet to landing on one foot .

I would say that it was precisely what a Figure Skating boot allowed her to do more than landing on bare foot (or so near to bare)? I hadn't thought that those bothersome things that are boots could have an use!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I would say that it was precisely what a Figure Skating boot allowed her to do more than landing on bare foot (or so near to bare)? I hadn't thought that those bothersome things that are boots could have an use!

Yuuup! There's a reason why when skaters do off-ice double and triples jumps they're not suppose to stick their landing but do some mini hops out of it. I will say, feet are still more stable than blades, but the transfer from toe pick to blade is definitely not as impactful.

Also worth noting Surya was a tumbler and not an artistic gymnast, so she's always been about the big tricks moreso than dance moves or the frills. I think that's why I enjoyed her skating so much since I was more about the jumps than transitions (and I suppose nowadays because I am actually capable of doing rockers/counters more than a triple, I'm more drawn to developing my skating skills!). Maybe that's the case with elite skaters - as juniors they're able to handle the big tricks with ease, but then as they go through their career jumps become harder so they shift focus on developing their overall skating, including their skating skills.