How will the Nationals results send 3 to Worlds?

[bekalc]

That was wrong. That's what I'm saying. Let them skate and see who wins. Don't manipulate either the placements at nationals or the selection to the world team afterwords.

To get to the finals you have to win the semi-finals. Not just be somebody's darling or the favorite of the powers that be.

I would have no objection to some kind of point system where you also got credit for success in other international events, as long as the criteria were objective and clearly delineated beforehand. What I am against is having these things decided behind closed doors by the whimsy of some committee of politicians and self-proclaimed big shots.

Oh I agree with you there.. But well considering how well the Japanese managed to manipulate their point system.. Well.. And I think too in international events you have to consider the toughness of the event. For example, if Nakano had been judged fairly at that Nationals. The person who would have been left of the team was not Ando, but Shizuka. Why because Shizuka didn't make the Grand Prix final. Now Shizuka in the Grand Prix actually put out the fourth highest point total (after Mao, Irina, and Sasha) but she was screwed by the competitions she attended. The Japanese I guess decided to make Arakawa their babysitter for Mao.. Tarasova was quite vocal and angry about it, actually.

So I think in judging international events they have to also take that one into account not only placement but your actual scores.. I agree the criteria has to be objectively layed out. (And if they USFSA was actually going by consistency, Paul Wylie wouldn't have been on that team anyways.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mark outskated Paul totally, probably even outskated Christopher, and on top of that Todd was clearly not ready to go to the Olympics which was made obvious when he got there. Basically they clearly wanted those 3 at all costs and Mark could have hung by the rafters and not gone that year.

The above is the crust of this debate. It had already happened. Feds have the power.

Joe

 

[feraina]

It just occurred to me that icentwk has been publishing a world rankings list, which differs from the ISU list in that it actually takes into account results from National's. I was wondering how such a ranking list could possibly be useful given that the competition within each country is so different. But maybe this is a way for USFSA to take into account not just National's but also other international events in deciding the Worlds team? If so, I think that would be great idea! It would assuage MM's concern that the selection be out in the open, and everyone else's that Alissa & Bebe aren't consistent.

Of course there will still be room for maneuvering, like just what the formula for the world rankings ought to be, and the exact scoring at National's, but I think it could provide a good compromise for now.

 

[bekalc]

It just occurred to me that icentwk has been publishing a world rankings list, which differs from the ISU list in that it actually takes into account results from National's. I was wondering how such a ranking list could possibly be useful given that the competition within each country is so different. But maybe this is a way for USFSA to take into account not just National's but also other international events in deciding the Worlds team? If so, I think that would be great idea! It would assuage MM's concern that the selection be out in the open, and everyone else's that Alissa & Bebe aren't consistent.

Of course there will still be room for maneuvering, like just what the formula for the world rankings ought to be, and the exact scoring at National's, but I think it could provide a good compromise for now.

If rankings were about equal and both people were somewhat consistent, than I think go with the person who won nationals. I'm all for Nationals being heavily weighted.. I just think that it's okay to consider consistency as well... And concerns about Bebe and Alissa's consistency level is quite fair.

But in let's say the case of Caroline versus Ashley. Well Caroline has had a lot easier competitions than Ashley, so far in the Grand Prix. (So that really should be taken into account as well.)

 

[Mathman]

Actually, for both Alissa and Bebe I think Nationals is the big goal anyway.

Last year Alissa made the podium at U.S. Nationals (wining the free program). I bet that bronze medal meant a lot more to her than her trip to Worlds, where she finished fifteenth.

If either A. or B. actually won the national championship she would be so far over the moon she wouldn't care whether there was a world championship contest or not.

Even Johnny and Evan -- likely top ten finishers at 2008 Worlds with chances of medalling -- are on record as saying the U.S. championship is their primary goal this season.

 

[feraina]

But in let's say the case of Caroline versus Ashley. Well Caroline has had a lot easier competitions than Ashley, so far in the Grand Prix. (So that really should be taken into account as well.)

You never know what will happen if Caroline skated at SC, or Ashley at SA or CoC. SA's technical panel was extremely strict with UR calls, SC technical panel seemed to pick on edges, and at CoC the ice conditions were apparently bad, possibly resulting in more falls and slower speeds (plus they didn't remake the ice in between the two groups, though they frequently cleaned the ice during the EX -- totally baffling!).

It only makes sense to have Caroline and Ashley, as well as Bebe, Alissa, Kimmie, Emily, and everyone else, to skate together in the same competition, on the same ice, judged by the same people, in order to get a sense of which of them is better (on that night). I do kinda see MM's point. But I also think overall consistency matters. So USFSA should stick to some well-publicized policy that takes both national's and recent int'l results into account.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

You never know what will happen if Caroline skated at SC, or Ashley at SA or CoC. SA's technical panel was extremely strict with UR calls, SC technical panel seemed to pick on edges, and at CoC the ice conditions were apparently bad, possibly resulting in more falls and slower speeds (plus they didn't remake the ice in between the two groups, though they frequently cleaned the ice during the EX -- totally baffling!).

It only makes sense to have Caroline and Ashley, as well as Bebe, Alissa, Kimmie, Emily, and everyone else, to skate together in the same competition, on the same ice, judged by the same people, in order to get a sense of which of them is better (on that night). I do kinda see MM's point. But I also think overall consistency matters. So USFSA should stick to some well-publicized policy that takes both national's and recent int'l results into account.

I think it one way to have all of them skate-off at Nats, and the top 3 go to Worlds.
Another way, would be to look at their history of competitiveness.

Certain US Ladies are just not good for competitions. They may have a good skate in one but it's chancy to expect that to happen in the Big One.

Looking at the GPs should give the powers that be an inkling of who are the best under fire. Past competitions will show support for the best of the best and not necessarily a medal. A skater who is in 9th after the SP and pulls up to 4th after the LP is showing guts! Ashley did just that in SC, when she was arbitrarily put in the first group and moved up to the main group after the SP. Johnny Weir did that at his first Worlds.

I think the Feds have a decision to make on who to send but if they allow the US
Nats as the sole venue for selecting the Team, they could find themselves in trouble. Especially this year since the consensus is that Kimmie will not make the Worlds podium and the USFS needs a strong back-up to retain 3 skaters for 2009 in Los Angeles.

It's a very very very important decision to make this year for the Ladies.

Joe

 

[merrywidow]

I take it because of all the preceding arguments that the USFSA has scrapped the rule that only our National Champions are guarenteed a spot on the World team? When did that ruling change? And what about the 1988 Nationals when Boitano had the worst skate of his life but was held up & awarded the gold medal? It was an era when being National champion meant a lot to International judges. If he'd gone to the Olympics as our silver or bronze medalist you can be sure that Brian Orser would have been awarded the Olympic Gold not Brian Boitano.

 

[Mathman]

I take it because of all the preceding arguments that the USFSA has scrapped the rule that only our National Champions are guarenteed a spot on the World team? When did that ruling change?

I think that's still the rule. But I think the tradition is to send the silver medalist if they have two spots, and the bronze medalist if they have three, except in extraordinary cases.

For assignments like Four Continents, they usually just go right down the list of placement at Nationals until they find someone who is willing to go.

I believe that in this respect USFS takes quite a different tack than other federations do. (Alexei Yagudin never won a Russian championship, but never missed Worlds, for instance).

And what about the 1988 Nationals when Boitano had the worst skate of his life but was held up & awarded the gold medal?

In my humble opinion, that was dead wrong. If Boitano didn't win, then he didn't win. Olympic prospects should (in a perfect world, LOL) have nohing to do with it.

I just think that spots on the world team should be decided on the ice, not in smoke-filled back rooms.

 

[bekalc]

I think that's still the rule. But I think the tradition is to send the silver medalist if they have two spots, and the bronze medalist if they have three, except in extraordinary cases.

For assignments like Four Continents, they usually just go right down the list of placement at Nationals until they find someone who is willing to go.

I believe that in this respect USFS takes quite a different tack than other federations do. (Alexei Yagudin never won a Russian championship, but never missed Worlds, for instance).In my humble opinion, that was dead wrong. If Boitano didn't win, then he didn't win. Olympic prospects should (in a perfect world, LOL) have nohing to do with it.

I just think that spots on the world team should be decided on the ice, not in smoke-filled back rooms.

But are you really going to argue that the Russian Federation was unfair to send Yagudin all those times, Math? For whatever reason Russian Nationals was just not Yagudin's competition... But he won everything else in sight... Besides most of the time Yagudin did place in the top three...

Yeah, tradition is tradition, but I don't think it's wrong for the USFSA to look at recent competitions and think about consistency. As long as they are honest about it.

 

[Mathman]

Yeah, tradition is tradition, but I don't think it's wrong for the USFSA to look at recent competitions and think about consistency. As long as they are honest about it.

Aye, there's the rub.

The minute you have things decided by a committee with no rules sitting around "thinking about concistency," you have opened the door for who-knows-what agendas to creep in.

I am not so much saying that "traditions" must always be followed, just that there should be some rules which everyone, including the skaters, all understand at the beginning of the season. If you do this, that, and the next, you go to worlds. If you don't, you stay home. You cannot depend of being the favorite of some shadowy selection committee.

 

[essence_of_soy]

2006 Australian nationals

This thread reminds me of what happened to Miriam Manzano and Joanne Carter in the lead up to the Torino Olympics.

In 2005, the Australian team for worlds was chosen based on results from the 2005 Four Continents championship. This was apparently decided by Australian officials at that championship.

Carter was fourth in the short and seventh in the free, finishing fourth overall. Manzano was 16th in the short and sixth in the free, finishing 9th overall. Carter went to worlds.

Based on her performance and the Australian Olympic Committee's requirements, at the 2005 world championships Joanne placed within the top 16, thus qualifying a skater for the Olympic games.

For reasons I still can't fathom, Carter was given the Olympic spot there and then.

However, in the next season on the 2005 / 2006 Grand Prix circuit, both skaters performed about the same.

At the national championships, Manzano beat Carter by 1 point. Carter had skated a clean short but popped 2 triples in the free. Manzano put her hand down on the 3 flip, but skated a long 10 points better than Carter.

Manzano made a court case out of it, areguing that she only found out at the last minute that the 2005 Four Continents event was the qualifying round for worlds, limiting her preparation time.

However, as Carter was the one who qualified the skater for the Olympics in the first place, she had already been chosen. As compensation, Miriam was sent to worlds

In what became an ugly mess, neither skater performed up to their potential. Carter finished 25th in the short in the Olympics and Manzano finished 16th in her qualifying round at worlds.

As the short was Carter's forte and the free Manzano's, strategically, it really was the right decision to send them to those particular competitions.

But it really shows what can happen when a country has two talented, evenly matched skaters and can only send one to the big show.