I am on the same level with you about Caroline. She is nice to watch but I find her rather boring. She needs to work on her tecnique though. Her jumps are painful to watch. Saying that, she is 13 and tiny and it takes a great deal of work to get her little body in the air to rotate fast enough. I think she has potential and hopefully she wont get burned out.
I Don't Get Caroline Zhang
- Thread starter dancindiva03
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- Jan 22, 2004
But at the same time, it will be even harder for her once she grows to to try to rotate her triples with her bad technique. And honestly, I know plenty of tiny skaters that manage to do their jumps correctly. Better to learn correct technique at her size than to re-learn it after the attack of puberty and the growth spurt that we all know she will go through.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Ant - I appreciate your agreeing our right to differ. As I said before if you agree that the showbiz term applies to figure skating, so be it. I don't. :indiff:
BTW - Am I hyping Rachel Flatt now?and not discussing her? Some posters like her others don't. That is black and white: not hype. just discussion.
Joe
I don't think you or anyone is hyping Rachel Flatt - i think a discussion of her current skating skills is being discussed. No-one has posted things like "Rachel Flatt Olympic Champion 2010...you read it here first".
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
BTW - Am I hyping Rachel Flatt now?
Joe
Also some posters like her and others don't isn't black and white...there's a sea of grey in between where i'm currently floating. I don't like her as much as other posters but i don't dislike her skating. I'm interested in seeing how she develops but i didn't see the musicality that others have. In that respect i'm indifferent!
Ant
I have never seen Caroline skate, but in order to win the JGP, you've got to be pretty good (understatement), at least relative to other junior skaters.
I am really looking forward to seeing her skate. I have a hunch that she has more musicality and style than 98% of junior competitiors out there (never mind about the age). As for flexibility, well, if you had that amount of flexibility, wouldn't you want to show off your strengths and use it to highlight your choreography/music?
I can't wait to see her at the senior level, hopefully next year?
I am really looking forward to seeing her skate. I have a hunch that she has more musicality and style than 98% of junior competitiors out there (never mind about the age). As for flexibility, well, if you had that amount of flexibility, wouldn't you want to show off your strengths and use it to highlight your choreography/music?
I can't wait to see her at the senior level, hopefully next year?
Caroline can skate in the Senior GP and in the "B" Internationals (Nebelhorn, Karl Schafer). Skaters have to be 14 by July 1, and Caroline will be (also Rachael).
However, I hope Caroline will stay in the JGP and get a chance to improve her jump technique. I don't think Yu-Na Kim would have done as well in the Senior GP if she had gone last year. The extra year in Juniors was good for her, and it should be good for both Caroline and Rachael as well. I can't see these two tiny little ladies getting respect in the 'big' GP.
However, I hope Caroline will stay in the JGP and get a chance to improve her jump technique. I don't think Yu-Na Kim would have done as well in the Senior GP if she had gone last year. The extra year in Juniors was good for her, and it should be good for both Caroline and Rachael as well. I can't see these two tiny little ladies getting respect in the 'big' GP.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
I don't get her either. Superior spirals, spins, big flashy moves, a huge flutz...Isn't that similar to someone else who hasn't managed to complete a clean program in an international event? From what I've seen at the Mexico JGP and her "You Raise Me Up" exhibition, she doesn't even interpret the music. Just a bunch of flashy moves. Well, she is only 13, so I'll shouldn't be too critical. But, so far, I see her as the second comig of Sash Cohen *cough* totally overrated *cough*.
Aside from the flutz, I don't get the comparison to Cohen. Caroline skated two 6-triple performances in the JGP and another in the JGPF.
Caroline singled the second jump in a combination at the first event in Mexico, but her other two FSs were clean except for the deduction for the flutz. Caroline's marks were incredibly consistent in all three competitions, and her marks were not artificially boosted by PCS scores.
By comparison, Sasha has never skated a clean FS in a non-cheesefest competition. She managed to win or medal even when she didn't skate cleanly because she had the benefit of high PCS scores.
Caroline singled the second jump in a combination at the first event in Mexico, but her other two FSs were clean except for the deduction for the flutz. Caroline's marks were incredibly consistent in all three competitions, and her marks were not artificially boosted by PCS scores.
By comparison, Sasha has never skated a clean FS in a non-cheesefest competition. She managed to win or medal even when she didn't skate cleanly because she had the benefit of high PCS scores.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2006
Big moves are fine as long as they interpret the music or at least go along with it. I just don't see the point of having music if you're not skating TO it (or with it).
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
Exactly. One or two flashy moves that go along with a particular section of music is fine. Its stringing together one "LOOK!!!!! I'm SOOOOOOOOOO flexible!" move after another just for the sake of showing off while not relating the moves to your music at all that is not fine. It just looks like showing off and quite honestly, figure skating is not all about the flexibility. Thats just one part, and it needs to be brought into balance with the rest of the elements.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
A fine sentiment, but unfortunately this succession of big moves is what we get from all the skaters with COP, only some of them can do the wow moves and most (alas) cannot.
But is this really the point? As far as I can see, you've made it your mission to prove that Caroline Zhang and Sasha Cohen are emperors without clothes. But you know what? Sasha is the reigning Olympic silver medalist with a zillion international podium finishes and Caroline just won all her events by a landslide. Their talent and results are obvious. Really, dumping like this on a brilliant little 13-year-old -- it's too absurd. How about a little respect?
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Ahem....as much as there should have been a deduction there were none for the flutz. Ignoring the combination jump since apparently the jiggarry pokery of COP judging means you canjump a flawed lutz and make it up by adding two nice double on the end??? Anyway I digress…
In Mexico Zhang had three +1s and five 0s for her solo triple lutz. I find that amazing for a skater who flutzes - she got no penalty and three judges even thought it was worthy of a +1!!!
In the JGP Taipei the solo Lutz came at the start of the program and she received one -2, four -1s, four 0s and one +1. Bit of a variance there then?
Either way I don't think she's really getting penalised for the flutz but I agree that already she's put down more clean LPs than Cohen has, and she is just at the start of her career.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Can you explain by going through her program which moves you think are too in your face about her flexibility? Or that they are strung together one after the other? I'm not sure i really understand your outrage since i don't think she does that many flexi moves.
I've just rewatched her Taipei LP and it goes like this:
Opening pose, edges, twizzles into Back cross overs.
Down the length for the 3Flutz (she thinks about a combo but decides against it).
Fwd Cross overs into short ina bauer.
Nice RBO spiral into double axel
Edges, turns and back cross overs and front cross overs
3F/2T/2Lp
Flying camel/inside edge/donut (with a very good transition no grappling for the free leg and hold the nice position with arm down for several rotations)
Cross over, edges into 3Lp
Outside spread eagle, cross overs and edges into 3Flutz/2Toe
RFI spiral/COE to RFO Spiral Cross overs LBI Chinese Sprial (it is chinese sprial when its one hand to oppositre balde isn't it?)/RBO I Sprial with hand support then without.
Cross over and edges into 3F
Straightline steps with turns in both directions, brackets, drags etc
3T/2T
Layback spin that went in very fast with nice high turned out free leg, transition to sideways leaning/cathcfoot up to Biellman
Straight into Fwd camel/outside edge/down to sit with mandatory change in position (the one everyone does)/up to layback where she drops her body down to the free leg and pulls her blade to her face/change backsit with change of edge/Ispin
End pose.
1. In total that's 6 flexi moves i counted and i was counting everything. I don't think you can really say the RBO spiral into double axel is misplaced - she has great amplitude and exention on her spirals, she did a nice back sprial into the double axel to make it harder.
2. The Donut spin - a lot of girls do this spin its not peculair to Zhang, she does it very well with an easy transition. I don't think this is a wow move its just a well executed spin.
3. The spiral sequence under COP has become the same thing i don't think Zhangs is any more flashy than anyone else's - the position mimicked Arakawa's Olympic LP (all be it on different edges and not done as well) but i don't think Arakawa's moves were show off-y and i don't think zhangs are.
4. Biellman spin on the layback...complain about COP not Zhange - its still the only definnite way to get that final level up to four for a layback.
5. The layback where she drops her back to the free leg is an exceptionally wow move but it doesn't look forced, it isn't for the sake of being flexible, i think it is a valid difficult spin variation that she hasn't used already and is another way to crank the level four out.
6. I spin - again a lot of girls end their progams with these now.
Overall i don't see any less flexi moves than an Arakawa program. She does as many flexi moves as Slutskaya might do but instead she uses many different variations. I don't thin there is an overuse or bad use of the flexi moves. If you do take exception i'd aim it at COP not the skater.
One thing that i have noticed in watching the LP again writing it up. She needs to work on her camel position - she doesn't get a good position and the start of each camel spin was poor with dropped body and free leg. She needs to wqork on her backsit - thatis remeniscnet of an early Kwan.
The only other thing of note was the number of cross overs - she could maybe also work on her transitions.
Given her age and her jump consistency i think she's doing really well overall and these are all thigns that i'm sure she will work on in the future.
Ant
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Caroline appears to be getting equal good forum hype and bad forum hype.
We've all seen her skate from the clips on youtube. There were some of us at last years Nats who saw her too; Live, and in spite of finishing 8th, we, at least I thought here is talent showing at 13.
Now a big 14 year old and the talent increasing exponentially makes for hope that this phenomenal talent will continue to create a very special skater. Only time will tell.
Joe
We've all seen her skate from the clips on youtube. There were some of us at last years Nats who saw her too; Live, and in spite of finishing 8th, we, at least I thought here is talent showing at 13.
Now a big 14 year old and the talent increasing exponentially makes for hope that this phenomenal talent will continue to create a very special skater. Only time will tell.
Joe
