Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

[chuckm]

It does, if you have seen the performances and can note what transpired. I saw DelShoes' TEB and CoR performances. The FD at TEB may have been slightly better than the CoR performance, but except for the small mistake (foot down for a second on a twizzle) the performance level was good at both. Yet there was an 8.5 point difference between TEB and CoR. If you subtract 5 points from the TEB FD to account for overmarking, DelShoes took a 3.5 point hit for that momentary foot down.

By comparison, Dubreiul's near-fall on a twizzle at the GPF, a much bigger and more noticeable mistake than DelShoes', cost them less than two points over their NHK FD performance, and if you subtract out the 1.00 deduction for an extended lift, less than one point. BTW, Lauzon's FD twizzle mistake at NHK cost D/L only 1.5 off a home-ice inflated SC score.

One team gets hammered, and the other seems to be made of Teflon.

 

[La Rhumba]

And if anyone looked at the Obersdorf gala-she felt down.

Right on cue she fell on the twizzles in "At Last"!

Dorispulaski wrote: Warning : I tend to be a non-fan of dancers who can't dance though

D&L's second number was an absolutely gorgeous routine to "Ne Me Quitte Pas" - stunningly beautiful, and such a pleasure to see a mature couple dancing on the ice - pure dancing and romantic connection, I'm so pleased they stayed eligible.

However..... HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!

To you too lanadd.

 

[euterpe]

I gotta say it: I HATE "Ne Me Quitte Pas"! and I'm none to fond of "At Last". If they're planning on staying in another year or so, I'd like to see D/L buckle down and do something just a tad outside their comfort zone, something with a bit more speed and no more 'loverly' stuff. To me, they are "Ice Dancing Lite" a la Harlequin romance. What they do looks like high school stuff compared to what the other top teams are doing, and they aren't even doing it without mistakes!

 

[dorispulaski]

euterpe, I've got to agree with you on that one. IMO At Last is very, very treacly stuff, right up there with 'That's Entertainment' on the misplaced exhibition number list.

But I suppose D/L were trying to be more daring with 2005's Last of the Mohicans and the judges did not appear to like it . Perhaps that is what forced them back into the Harlequin romance format again.

 

[hockeyfan228]

It's true that a few years ago they did not have the speed of the top teams, but having seen them live I can tell you that that is no longer the case. When they moved to France to train this was one of the goals — to break down and recreate their technique so they would be competitive speed-wise. It worked. date.

I agree that it worked, but only to some extent; they are faster than they were before the move to Zazoui, but they're still not that fast. I think that Wilson's two FD's for them have a lot of flow, which is different than speed. There are a number of teams that look slower than they are because their skating looks full of effort and lacks the smoothness of flow, although they are, objectively, faster than they teams that skate more open routines.

We obviously have different perceptions of seeing them live.

 

[rain]

I gotta say it: I HATE "Ne Me Quitte Pas"! and I'm none to fond of "At Last". If they're planning on staying in another year or so, I'd like to see D/L buckle down and do something just a tad outside their comfort zone, something with a bit more speed and no more 'loverly' stuff. To me, they are "Ice Dancing Lite" a la Harlequin romance. What they do looks like high school stuff compared to what the other top teams are doing, and they aren't even doing it without mistakes!

Totally agree on "Ne Me Quitte Pas." It is such a snooze and they can do soooo much better. However I adore "At Last." I disagree strongly about their style being "high school" compared to other top teams. Just because they're not heavy choral doom and gloom doesn't make them any less legitimate. "At Last" is a gorgeously sensual, smokey, jazzy number that is anything but the jock and the cheerleader. As for mistakes, well, everyone's made them this season, so.....

 

[La Rhumba]

I finally understand what Doris meant about different styles and tastes in Europe and America in Dance! I didn't really believe it before, but it must be true! Putting D&L temporarily in the French[canadian] camp - that routine has been received well every time they've skated it in Europe. I'm astounded that it doesn't appear to touch any of you, and as a couple they're referred to as either "not dancey enough" or "highschool". I think I must be living on another icedance planet.

My God, is it any wonder there are Judging controversies in Dance when tastes can vary so substantially from continent to continent?

When two posters interpret the Kerr's Last Of The Mohicans FD as a "poor political statement about Native Americans"?

It's all too weird for me to comprehend.........I feel old......

 

[chuckm]

Putting D&L temporarily in the French[canadian] camp - that routine has been received well every time they've skated it in Europe.

"At Last" or "Ne Me Quitte Pas"? AFAIK, the only time D/L performed "AL" in Europe was in the GPF (their previous performances were in Canada and Japan).

I could understand "NMQP" being well received in Europe since the song is in French and D/L train in Europe. They are more or less 'adopted' Europeans.

 

[SK8LUVR]

I absolutely love D/L's FD to "At Last". Yes, it is similar to their last year's number but it really suits them. It is my favorite FD this year in terms of entertainment. I can't wait to see them at Nationals because I get to see it in person. I really find that allot of the top teams are back to the more theatrical type of ice dance and too me that is a real turn-off which I find boring. A team that draws you in is important and D/L do that for me with this number. I saw their GPF free dance just the other day on re-runs and it was my absolute favorite of the top teams. They, however, had some touble but by worlds it should be awesome.

 

[dorispulaski]

LaRhumba,
You should have seen the trouble with Semanick and Gregory ('88 Olympics was their last appearance). The difference in taste was so radical, they basically had to have a different FD for Nationals and Worlds.

It's not as marked now, but it's worth noting that the US Professional Skaters Association voted the NavBom's FD at US Nationals the best last year (5th place). It was a dancy number to 'It's a New Dawn, It's a New Day'. The audience loved it much more than B&A, G&P & M&Z, all of whom finished ahead of NavBoms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=664k3L1ym3E

As to At Last, don't feel too bad Those in Europe did not see I&B skate At Last endlessly as an exhibition number (2003 to 2005) as we did here in the USA. It is more trite to us than it is to you, for sure.

And re the Kerrs: you probably didn't hear K&O and D&L excoriated for Last of the Mohicans either. All three dances were full of stereotypes, sort of like wearing blackface makeup to dance to a medley of Cotton Eyed Joe and The Blue Tailed Fly. I'm sure that none of the 3 couples meant anything by it, at all, but it's one reason never to perform either a blackface dance or an Indian dance. There will be people offended, even when no offense was meant.

And to appreciate the opposite taste, focus on the man instead of the lady (consider her extra eye candy or a prop, as happens with the man in the opposite taste) and watch CD's & OD's to see who's skating on the beat and whether they look waltzy if it's a waltz, polka-y if a polka, etc.

(I do the reverse exercise before complaining too loudly about dance judging-I focus on the lady, her extension, speed, and are they telling a story (none of which in my true guise I care about that much.) There is a Canadian criterion that I can't exercise because I don't know what it means, really :"draw you in". Where I live, that means 'cheat you' (which can't be what the above poster means).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I gotta say it: I HATE "Ne Me Quitte Pas"! and I'm none to fond of "At Last". If they're planning on staying in another year or so, I'd like to see D/L buckle down and do something just a tad outside their comfort zone, something with a bit more speed and no more 'loverly' stuff. To me, they are "Ice Dancing Lite" a la Harlequin romance. What they do looks like high school stuff compared to what the other top teams are doing, and they aren't even doing it without mistakes!

As I said Americana music will not sell in competition. One has to skate with surging dramatic european music to show some passion, whatever that is.

Joe

 

[Jasper]

Wow, a lot to talk about in this thread! I have some two cents to put in because ice dance is always such a controversial yet intriguing debate.

Firstly, with Domnina/Shabalin, I must say I actually like their programs this year. I love the emotion they give their OD and I find it much more "watchable" than Belbin/Agosto's, even though D/S having been taking a lot of criticism for their OD portion. And I agree that their FD costumes are horrid and they have a bit to much arm flailing going on, but the music selection is a perfect choice for them, they have great lifts and usually skate very close together, and just have strong skating basics. I think they could still improve their speed and emotion towards each other, but I think they definitely show better promise and talent than Navka/Kostomarov. If N/K can dominate in a field so much more dynamic and skilled than they were, then I guess Dom/Shab will definitely dominate as well. But their rise is definitely sketchy considering that last year they were getting total scores mostly in the 170's, and now are suddenly in the 190's. I do think they were previously undermarked, but definitely don't deserve to be ahead of the French team yet.

Someone earlier mentioned that N/K improved greatly over the years, but I sadly must disagree. I think their Austin Powers/Pink Panther routine was by far the one that had the most energy and actual dance quality to it, even though some of the steps and footwork may not have been the most difficult. They peaked with that at the '04 Worlds, and just went downhill with drabby, unpleasant, unoriginal garbage choreography that makes me hate Tosca and Carmen - two brilliant, incredible pieces of music that N/K just BUTCHERED.

I was actually rewatching my tape of the 2005 Worlds Ice Dance competition in Moscow and WOW what a loud of bullshit from the judges. N/K won by a very large margin of about 6 points over #2 B/A and about 20 points over #5 Den/Stav, but their FD was completely full of flaws. He stumbled noticeably during the circular footwork and other steps, plus they had awkward moments coming out of lifts. Yet they were the best by that large of a margin? At the time, it was actually the highest score ever in the new system - a sign that ice dance judging is biased and not dependable, if a program with so many problems can dominate so much. Meanwhile, I forgot how exciting B/A were back then! Their lifts were not memorable, and they still aren't very memorable in that department, but overall that Gypsy Dance was the best FD they ever did and they've gotten worse since that season with music and choreography, IMHO.

The 2005 Worlds podium that year should have been Del/Scho (with their brilliant Frida), then B/A, then Den/Stav (I loved Bach to Africa but they didn't skate it their best in Moscow) or maybe G/G who had a really exciting version of Winter/Air that they should have used again for the Olympic season. Because even though G/G won the Bronze medal in Turino, it was one of the worst programs I've ever seen by a top team in my life and they never performed it fast with any excitement.

 

[Jasper]

As for the Turino results, looking back at that competition, I think it may be one of the low points in recent ice dance. The three medal teams had three very bland and boring free dances!!! It was a shame that teams with superior free dances had knocked themselves out of the competition beforehand, like D/L with the fall, Den/Stav with the bobbled spin, and D/V with the fall. And I still can't understand how G/G's program could score higher than what the French team did... can someone explain to me why the judges were so willing to inflate the scores of some Ukrainian team over a French team beloved by audiences around the world???

People were so excited at the time of the CD in Turino because there were upsets and the results were surprising; however, in the end, everything unraveled "as it should have." The top five were the same top five as the previous year's Worlds, and in the same exact order. So much for better, fairer judging, right?

Another problem with ice dance judging that I think was evident at the Olympics was the ridiculous emphasis on footwork and steps over the creativity and innovation of lifts. Lifts are the most exciting aspects of ice dance for me, usually, and the best teams at that are definitely D/L, Den/Stav, and Del/Scho. I doubt I will find more teams in the past, present, or future who can come up with better lifts than they create on the ice. However, the top three on the podium were all teams with, in comparison, very boring and unoriginal lifts. I think with N/K, B/A, and G/G, the judges emphasized difficulty (although not speed, because the Russians and Ukrainians were SO slow) in footwork sequences and twizzles over lifts, which I found to be a real shame to the sport.

Unfortunately, as much as I and everyone else love the French team, I don't see them medalling at Worlds this year. I believe they are stilly fairly young (they've only skated once at Olympics, yes?) and I think they can still have their time, but they might need a program to soften them a bit or get them to bring out more relation to one another. I find it interesting that even Susie Wynne, a great ice dance commentator in the US however a commentator known for not being forward/direct/honest about addressing unfair results, mentioned that Del/Scho are consistently undermarked by the judges and she doesn't know why. If she is bold enough to say it, it's definitely true. So hopefully their time will come, but it's unlikely to see them surpass Dom/Shab or B/A ever again, even though their FD's are always more fun, dynamic, and usually the most difficult of all the top teams!

The other team I would like to talk about is Kohklova/Novitski, because while some people question their rise in the rankings, I actually saw this team for the first time recently and LOVED their style on the ice. Her flexibility is jaw-dropping and allows the team to hit incredible, flawless positions in spins and lifts that are better stretched out than anyone else. I also think their FD to Aranjuez is sexy and romantic and they dance to the music well, IMO. However, I do have to question judging and why they've been held back for years and suddenly are getting such high scores - because it's clearly not just improvement on their part but also a change in the judges attitude related to the retirement of N/K and the need for more top Russian teams. But I am happy for them because I think they're terrific to watch on the ice and I'd like to see them competing for medals at Worlds eventually, just not ahead of De/Scho or D/L, please.

My prediction for this years Worlds (and I don't think how well they actually skate will be very relevant, sadly):
1 Denkova/Staviski
2 Dubreuil/Lauzon
3 Domnina/Shabalin
4 Belbin/Agosto
5 Delobel/Schoenfelder
6 Kohklova/Novitski

 

[JonnyCoop]

And I still can't understand how G/G's program could score higher than what the French team did... can someone explain to me why the judges were so willing to inflate the scores of some Ukrainian team over a French team beloved by audiences around the world???

I think with N/K, B/A, and G/G, the judges emphasized difficulty (although not speed, because the Russians and Ukrainians were SO slow)

Unfortunately, as much as I and everyone else love the French team, I don't see them medalling at Worlds this year. I believe they are stilly fairly young (they've only skated once at Olympics, yes?)

Technically, G/G's program wasn't scored higher than Deloebel & Schoenfelder's; D/S were actually 2nd in the FD (99.50) to G/G's 3rd (99.17), at least in Torino. Still, comparing the 2 programs, it IS quite ridiculous that D/S should only beat G/G by a lousy THIRD OF A POINT.

re. Grushina/Goncharov and them being "so slow" in Torino. Yeah, they were slower than most of the other top-10 couples out there but that may have been in part because they were ACTUALLY SKATING AT THE PACE OF THEIR MUSIC MOST OF THE TIME, as opposed to this propensity for racing around at 90 miles an hour even if you're skating to something mellow and slow-paced, which personally drives me up the nearest wall. I am one of those who does feel that speed is MUCH over-rated in dance; the speed should depend on the tempo of the music, not on the fact that it's an unwritten rule that you should go out there and fly and buzz around like you're double-parked and just want to get outa there. Tho I did not care for G/G's overall FD, what I actually DID like about it was that they were one of the few couples that was actually skating at the same pace as their music; this, however, seemed to be (and still is) widely interpreted as "slowness". Now, had their music been faster-paced, and had they still skated at their Torino pace, I would agree with this.

Torino was actually D/S's 2nd Olympics; they were 16th in SLC.

 

[layman]

My prediction for this years Worlds (and I don't think how well they actually skate will be very relevant, sadly):
1 Denkova/Staviski
2 Dubreuil/Lauzon
3 Domnina/Shabalin
4 Belbin/Agosto
5 Delobel/Schoenfelder
6 Kohklova/Novitski

It's a sad (but true) commentary that Ice Dance Results can be predicted with perfect accuracy THREE MONTHS IN ADVANCE, but I know and the skating world knows (as of January 4, 2007) that this is EXACTLY how everyone will finish. It's a tragic "sport." Nothing has change AT ALL with the "New Judging System."

 

[gkelly]

Another problem with ice dance judging that I think was evident at the Olympics was the ridiculous emphasis on footwork and steps over the creativity and innovation of lifts. Lifts are the most exciting aspects of ice dance for me, usually, and the best teams at that are definitely D/L, Den/Stav, and Del/Scho. I doubt I will find more teams in the past, present, or future who can come up with better lifts than they create on the ice. However, the top three on the podium were all teams with, in comparison, very boring and unoriginal lifts. I think with N/K, B/A, and G/G, the judges emphasized difficulty (although not speed, because the Russians and Ukrainians were SO slow) in footwork sequences and twizzles over lifts, which I found to be a real shame to the sport.

I wouldn't take issue with most of your other points, but I think you're letting your personal love of lifts overpower a perspective of what ice dance has been historically and will or should be in the future.
(Do you by any chance enjoy pairs more than dance in general?)

The one thing that dance has always been about as opposed to freestyle is steps to music. Even in freestyle, people have often referred to "dance steps" when the focus has been on expression of rhythm.

Historically, dance lifts were meant to be brief and to express the character of the music rather than to be athletic feats as in pairs. With the loosening of lift restrictions in dance and especially under the new system, the difficulty of the lifts has become more important and the timing rules measured in seconds rather than measures of music has decreased the relationship between the lifts and the music. Many would contend that that is not a good thing.

Some of the rules and trends for step sequences have also decreased the relationship between the steps and the music as well. Again, purists would argue that that trend loses one of the defining characteristics of ice dance.

Look back at the OSPs from the 70s and 80s, and you'll see that they were all about difficult steps, turns, and edges to the music, with ice speed a plus but not the only criterion, and quickness only important when that year's musical rhythm was quick. No lifts, no dance spins. You did see those, especially the former, in the free dances.

Personally, I think it's great that the difficulty of what the blades do on the ice (in the steps -- obviously one of the partner's blades are not on the ice at all during lifts) is explicitly one of the most important criteria in judging dance.

I just wish there were a way to explicitly reward and thus encourage creativity and specificity to the music in all technical elements (steps, lifts, and twizzles and spins also) and transitions. Yeah, those things get covered in the component marks, but there are enough other criteria to the components that they're not necessary to win, and unfortunately some of the current requirements for the technical elements are structured so that it's more rewardeing to structure the elements to gain points rather than to express the music.

 

[Jasper]

gkelly,

Actually I love love love ice dance in comparison to pairs and with the exception of Mishketunik/Dmitriev and maybe a few other teams, watching pair programs have never given me the excitement of watching ice dance. I understand your points that ice dance should be based mostly on the actual rhythm and the edges of the skaters on the ice; however, I think the sign of a great team is the ability to dance to the music AND blend in great lifts that are appropriate to the music. I think the teams I mentioned, Del/Schoe, Den/Stav, and especially D/L, can place the lifts at the right moments and create shapes that make sense. But you're right that there are far too many teams who don't understand how to match lifts to their music. And I can understand complaints that new lift rules make the sport a little too gymnastic and less about pure, pure dance. I'm not sure how I feel about timing lifts either because it does give a sense of regularity and makes it easier to judge, but are deductions for doing a lift for a tad bit longer really fair or important???

Once I showed one of my friends who doesn't usually watch skating D/V's program to Phantom of the Opera from Europeans because she loves that music and it's probably my favorite ice dance program ever; however, she said she felt the dance was too "aerobic" and she didn't enjoy it as much as D/L.

 

[Jasper]

Technically, G/G's program wasn't scored higher than Deloebel & Schoenfelder's; D/S were actually 2nd in the FD (99.50) to G/G's 3rd (99.17), at least in Torino. Still, comparing the 2 programs, it IS quite ridiculous that D/S should only beat G/G by a lousy THIRD OF A POINT.

re. Grushina/Goncharov and them being "so slow" in Torino. Yeah, they were slower than most of the other top-10 couples out there but that may have been in part because they were ACTUALLY SKATING AT THE PACE OF THEIR MUSIC MOST OF THE TIME, as opposed to this propensity for racing around at 90 miles an hour even if you're skating to something mellow and slow-paced, which personally drives me up the nearest wall. I am one of those who does feel that speed is MUCH over-rated in dance; the speed should depend on the tempo of the music, not on the fact that it's an unwritten rule that you should go out there and fly and buzz around like you're double-parked and just want to get outa there. Tho I did not care for G/G's overall FD, what I actually DID like about it was that they were one of the few couples that was actually skating at the same pace as their music; this, however, seemed to be (and still is) widely interpreted as "slowness". Now, had their music been faster-paced, and had they still skated at their Torino pace, I would agree with this.

Torino was actually D/S's 2nd Olympics; they were 16th in SLC.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that speed for the sake of speed is ridiculous in this sport. But with G/G at the Olympics, I didn't really get the feeling that they skated slower because of the music but I just felt they were slow because their footwork was too complex and so difficult to complete, and because he is not the best skater. I think they would have skated it faster if they honestly could have pushed more. But whether or not the slowness was intentional, I just think their entire program was awkward, clumsy, and unaesthetically pleasing! lol In G/G's Vivaldi FD from the season before, they were successful at skating slow during the slow parts and then skating fast in the fast parts. I don't know if they changed choreographers over the summer (probably not), but their next FD was just so much worse!

 

[nuge]

I agree I thought their Vivaldi FD was probably their best .G/G always had much better ODS IMO anyway.I watched
the olympic FD to see if it was as slow as what I remember and you know what it was much worse :yes: It was in parts near an absolute stand still I wanted to give them a push .Never seen a dance so bad .It was a shame as they looked good and especially Elena is one of the best female dancers ' has so much expression .When I was watching though I kept thinking of G/P and how they used the music .No one should use this music again .Is it true they have split off ice ?