Interesting Hersch article in the aftermath of Worlds

[Mathman]

You are saying that the panel's GOE for 3-axel with fall is -3 ?

Yes, I think so. If I am interpreting the rules right, any fall on a jump gets an automatic -3 GOE.

However, if the jump is not worth that much to begin with, then the -3 is "factored." For instance, if you fall on a double Axel (a lesser base mark), then the judges enter -3, but the computer multiplies that by .7, so the effect is -2.1 instead of -3.

They have to do it this way, otherwise the negative GOE might be more than the whole element was worth in the first place.

Then there is the -1 deduction for a fall, but that's separate. As MZheng pointed out, you can avoid that by somehow keeping one foot in contact with the ice while you are sliding along on your butt, LOL.

 

[mpal2]

The way I understand a fall not being counted as a fall would be something similar to Michelle's SLC fall. It was more of a hand down, twist kind of thing than a fall on her butt. Or am I completely wrong?

Does anyone know of an a skater's ESPN televised program that got this kind of no-fall benefit? I could at least go back and look it up to get a better picture in my head.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It was triple toeloop vs 3A that he refers to. No he diddn't specific the example of skater.

A perfect 3toe is 4 points, A falled 3A is 7.5-3=4.5.

A general sense of 'fall' dosn't necessary warrent -1 from overall score under CoP. There is definition of 'Fall' in CoP that both blads have to be left off ice to count as a fall. If you just simply sit down on ice with one blades still touch the ice it is not defined as a fall in CoP. I saw one of this example in one of the GP.

OK, with the 3toe but what if it were a 3loop?
Also how do we know there were completed turns in the 3A? We trust the Tech Asst to catch this like the one who left out an executed spin on Chenjiang Li?
What about the completed turns in a 3A but two footed landings? Is it less bad than a fall?

My only comment on your last para is that "we do pussyfoot this sport".

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Michelle is not even close to the level of Dorothy Hamill's and John Curry's skating. Those skaters skated with body movement against the ice and great spins and not theatrics .This system encourages skaters like Dorothy and Curry.

IMO, Dorothy Hamill's posture and carriage was something that every skater since, including Michelle, would die for. I am not sure whether the New Judging System has a way of rewarding that quality or not. Maybe in the Component Scores?

To me, Michelle does not jump better than everyone else. She does not spin better than everyone else. She does not achieve more beautiful positions than everyone else.

What she does do, IMHO, is skate better than everyone else. Where the metal meets the ice, that's where the action is. That's why the sport is ice skating, not pole vaulting, not ballet.

For my money, just let her skate down to the end of the rink and then turn around and skate back.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think this trend is largely fueled by TV. The few times I've seen skating live, I was struck by how much more I could appreciate the edging in person than on TV. On the other hand, the "tricks" play much better on TV. Unfortunately, it's those ratings everyone is so concerned with...

ITA!! The whole scope of figure skating changes from LIVE to TV.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

For my money, just let her skate down to the end of the rink and then turn around and skate back.

Mathman

Well MM, even according to many MK devotees, you've gotten your money's worth, because she does all that, and TWO bags of chips! (a jump at either end)

Just kidding on that statement, but MM, your post begged it from me, and I delivered.

I stand by my theory that we have PLENTY of awesome singles skating ahead of us. Let's take Weir and Buttle as an example. I suspect before World's, they viewed Plush as a lock on gold before he withdrew (heck, most of us did, and I'm pretty sure we were right!). But here comes Lambiel. A guy with quads AND the rest of the package. I'm speculating that we will see some really exciting new packages next year. Unfortunately, we'll see some falls in the process I suspect, but it will surely be exciting. I want to see what Fumie, Sasha, Irina and others come up with for next year. And MK too.

Pro / show skating is not really my thing. I respect the appeal that pro/show holds for a good % of the FS fan base and TV audience. Personally, I love the risk taking that goes on with the eligible side of things. So of course, all of my opinions are absolutely colored by this personal preference of mine.

DG

 

[mzheng]

OK, with the 3toe but what if it were a 3loop?
Also how do we know there were completed turns in the 3A? We trust the Tech Asst to catch this like the one who left out an executed spin on Chenjiang Li?
What about the completed turns in a 3A but two footed landings? Is it less bad than a fall?

My only comment on your last para is that "we do pussyfoot this sport".

Joe

Question by question. Hersh just just this perticular case toeloop to make his point. I think it is a valid one. If you apply the -1 on the fall on 3A, then the 3Toe only warrent 0.5 more points. Dose that enoug a difference? I think this is open to debate.

If it is a 3loop there is no question a well executed will earn 1.5 more vs. a falled 3A. Still is it good enough a differential.

Yes, a perfect one or excellent 3toe should get +2 GOE. But again how many there were rewarded +2 GOE? A rough glance at the protocol sheet, except Irina no body got close to +2. The judge gave Kwan and Slutz the same -1 GOE on 3Lutz/2Toe in SP?

Joe, I don't think every 2 foot jump warrent a downgrade, it depends if you are fully turned or not. double footed landing occured skater face forward. these are the one warrent down grade, IMO. You must mislead by Dick Button's last year's comment during GPs, since you are such a fan of Dick.

I'm not against CoP, I was among the very few internet posters who embrase the idear from the very biginning. The problem was the implementation. How to reward the well balanced, executed clean programs. There are eareas in CoP its self can be adjusted, such as adjust the point of elements, more deduction on missing elements in SP, reward extra points to the program complete all planed elements cleanly, more deduction on fall or complete failed elements, etc. There are other earea in judge human error, biase can be improved, remove anonymouse judging, educate judges to use PCS and GoE correctly, trainning the caller to make more percise call, etc.....Actually I think she is not strongly against the CoP, she just feel it was implemented rushly. and diddn't well address the problem (cheating/biased judgeing) the system set out to resolve at the beginning. And I agree with her in this count.

 

[Mathman]

That is so true about having to see skating live to appreciate the actual skating part. On TV, sometimes they don't even show the skaters' feet.

If you go to SOI, for instance, that is the first thing that strikes you. These guys (OK, maybe not Sarah so much) can really skate. They make the amateur performances that we just saw at Worlds seem, well, amateur.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Speaking of John Curry, I think there is an interesting parallel between his position in 1976 and Michelle's now. Curry was the class of the field -- maybe the greatest of all time. But he was skating under a judging system that did not reward his style. In Curry's case, the international judges regarded it as too sissy, and told him so.

So Curry took the hint, moved to the US and worked hard at butching up his act. He didn't want to to this, feeling that it compromised his integrity as as artist. But he was told in no uncertain terms that this is what he needed to do to get that medal, so that's what he did. (And the rest is history, LOL.)

OT -- BTW, did you know that Lori Nichol skated with Curry's touring company? What she learned working with Curry became the foundation of her approach to choreography.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Well MM, even according to many MK devotees, you've gotten your money's worth, because she does all that, and TWO bags of chips! (a jump at either end)

Just kidding on that statement, but MM, your post begged it from me, and I delivered.

Well, I asked for it.

But actually, that is pretty much the choreography for Aranjuez, a program that brought the house down at both Nationals and Worlds. Definitely a different style from the Lori Nichol programs. But to me it was Michelle as a lean, mean fighting machine. No irrelevant or wasted movement. I thought it was great.

MM