Is Dance the best judged discipline now?

[life684]

Bezic was not commentating on that video. That was Tracy Wilson - who by the way was never a huge fan of B/K. As for the one comment about the ISU VP saying there was no wrong doing, I have to make two points as this statement is completely false:

1. There is audiotape proof about what went down in 1998 - thanks to a judge who taped a phone conversation. She was later suspended for releasing the tape - :disapp:

2. "Against the backdrop of the Olympic pairs judging scandal that has overshadowed the Salt Lake City Games, ISU officials Wednesday confirmed that Yuri Balkov of the Ukraine will likely judge the Olympic ice dancing competition despite what ISU general secretary Fredi Schmid conceded was "major misconduct" by Balkov in Nagano". This judge was also suspended in 1999 for his actions in 1998.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-82832075.html

There is also this article:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_omalley/20020213.html

It's quite obvious something occurred before the competition.



Do we know forsure that Kraatz made a mistake? So this other comment is saying that B/K were deducted for their mistake and deserved their 5th place finish. If so, why weren't G/P deducted for their mistake then?

My gosh, I sure do not miss 6.0

I am asking Doris or others(considerably more knowledge than me to comment on the subject) to comment on whether they made a mistake or not, the post i put had mention to specific errors. No body events were results is fixed, but just because wilson or Bezic suggests something we have to believe them is bit hard to swallow (i have seen too much eurosport commentary). If the Canadians made the mistakes they didn't deserve to place higher than the russians, whether or not it was fixed.


I can't buy everything North american commentators say on TV because i hear completing different and opposite commentary on the skating by europeans. Every Russian gold medal is treated by commentators (and some posters) as non deserving. I am sure that this will come up after this Olympics as well.

 

[i love to skate]

I am asking Doris or others(considerably more knowledge than me to comment on the subject) to comment on whether they made a mistake or not, the post i put had mention to specific errors. No body events were results is fixed, but just because wilson or Bezic suggests something we have to believe them is bit hard to swallow (i have seen too much eurosport commentary). If the Canadians made the mistakes they didn't deserve to place higher than the russians, whether or not it was fixed.

I don't think anyone is saying that B/K should have won. They should have been third, IMO, and I think many others would agree. The bolded point is the crucial statement though. People are willing to just throw away what happened because some believe that the results worked out fine anyways.

The point is that B/K were not given the chance to skate for a medal as it was taken away from them, and they knew it. Can you imagine skating at the Olympic Games with twenty years of training behind you, having dreamed of this moment all your life, and knowing that you will not place no matter how well you skate??

Every Russian gold medal is treated by commentators (and some posters) as non deserving. I am sure that this will come up after this Olympics as well.

I don't think this is true at all. Yagudin, Plushenko, Kulik, T/M - people don't have a problem with those. The ones that are often talked about or disputed are those where there was a judging scandal (B/S and G/P) or ones where controversy surrounded the event and eventual placement (Urmanov's gold in 1994).

 

[life684]

I don't think anyone is saying that B/K should have won. They should have been third, IMO, and I think many others would agree. The bolded point is the crucial statement though. People are willing to just throw away what happened because some believe that the results worked out fine anyways.

The point is that B/K were not given the chance to skate for a medal as it was taken away from them, and they knew it. Can you imagine skating at the Olympic Games with twenty years of training behind you, having dreamed of this moment all your life, and knowing that you will not place no matter how well you skate??



I don't think this is true at all. Yagudin, Plushenko, Kulik, T/M - people don't have a problem with those. The ones that are often talked about or disputed are those where there was a judging scandal (B/S and G/P) or ones where controversy surrounded the event and eventual placement (Urmanov's gold in 1994).

English is not my first language in fact is third, i did use the word fixed very loosely, i only slightly biased judging (we have seen judges placing their own countrymen higher than the others0, and if u look the judging only two judges put them in third position after CD, surely u don't mean other 7 made mistakes.

I hope you won't change the heading if Domnina and Shabalin wins at the Olympics, because many of them had hard time believing they won at last worlds and thought that only the system had changed but the outcome was the same.

 

[janetfan]

Bezic was not commentating on that video.

My gosh, I sure do not miss 6.0

There used to be a clip where Bezic ripped apart G/P and showed several mistakes they made that were overlooked.

I have to say you are enjoying your little 6.0 holiday

It might not take too much realization to know that it was crooked judges and federations that were fixing the Dance events and it had little to do with 6.0.

If a bloc of judges today decided not to mark down Dance teams and just look the other way when they made mistakes would that mean that CoP Dance scoring was horrible - or that the people in the sport were still horrible?

Looking at some of the scores I have seen this season it is easy enough to see that things are not as good or fair as they could be. Reputation scoring is rampant and it is harder than ever for a good performance by an newer skater to be judged and scored fairly.


I haven't seen much Dance this season coz NBC hasn't shown it. But I have to wonder why the compulsary part of Dance competition is getting eliminated.

That was part of the competition where judges could really see the difference in teams - if they actually wanted to. Apparently CoP decided this is not a good thing.

 

[i love to skate]

It might not take too much realization to know that it was crooked judges and federations that were fixing the Dance events and it had little to do with 6.0.

If a bloc of judges today decided not to mark down Dance teams and just look the other way when they made mistakes would that mean that CoP Dance scoring was horrible - or that the people in the sport were still horrible?

Looking at some of the scores I have seen this season it is easy enough to see that things are not as good or fair as they could be. Reputation scoring is rampant and it is harder than ever for a good performance by an newer skater to be judged and scored fairly.

Sure, it was the people that made the mistakes but it was the system that allowed them to place the skater wherever they wanted. There were no mandatory deductions for mistakes, and the judges could work together through signals. For example, foot tapping - which was the same judge as in 1998 - I have no idea why he was allowed to judge again in 2002.

Is the COP perfect? No. Will there ever be a sytem that is perfect? No. However, it is a far better system then 6.0 was.

ETA: I don't agree that newer skaters are held down. There have been some amazing debuts in dance. Which performances or skaters are you talking about?

I haven't seen much Dance this season coz NBC hasn't shown it. But I have to wonder why the compulsary part of Dance competition is getting eliminated.

That was part of the competition where judges could really see the difference in teams - if they actually wanted to. Apparently CoP decided this is not a good thing.

I don't think it is definietly getting scrapped. Might just be a rumour floating around.

 

[Tonichelle]

I can't buy everything North american commentators say on TV because i hear completing different and opposite commentary on the skating by europeans. Every Russian gold medal is treated by commentators (and some posters) as non deserving. I am sure that this will come up after this Olympics as well.

EVERY?

I don't recall Alexi Yagudin being called undeserving in 2002
I don't recall Katia and Sergi getting crucified in 1988 OR 1994 (now there are fans that say the OTHER RUSSIAN team deserved gold, and not G&G...)

there's two examples off the top of my head. A lot of people say that Irina deserved Gold - if Michelle didn't get it - on this board in 2002. Still held it after the games were over, too.


yes, the poor Russians are ALWAYS beat up by the mean old North American fans... G&G is loved world over. Katia still gets an outpouring of love in the US and Canada... I don't get where you come off saying we over here don't think anyone deserving...

AFAIR - come to think of it - Ilia Kulik is another I don't recall as being controversial.

or how about Irina Rodnina - she's looked at in awe of sorts (as is Artur Dm... however it's spelled, I'm not going to try to butcher it) over here with her THREE Olympic medals with different partners... coach Moskvina is also well loved by many of the US commentators...

 

[life684]

EVERY?

I don't recall Alexi Yagudin being called undeserving in 2002
I don't recall Katia and Sergi getting crucified in 1988 OR 1994 (now there are fans that say the OTHER RUSSIAN team deserved gold, and not G&G...)

there's two examples off the top of my head. A lot of people say that Irina deserved Gold - if Michelle didn't get it - on this board in 2002. Still held it after the games were over, too.


yes, the poor Russians are ALWAYS beat up by the mean old North American fans... G&G is loved world over. Katia still gets an outpouring of love in the US and Canada... I don't get where you come off saying we over here don't think anyone deserving...

AFAIR - come to think of it - Ilia Kulik is another I don't recall as being controversial.

Did they get that kind of support when they were skating as amateurs, because i remember her saying that they never received standing ovation.

If russians win by a mile they deserve it , but if they win a close contest they obviously don't deserve it.

P.S. actual question i raised is still not unanswered but the post is highjacked by the observation of the media i made.

 

[janetfan]

.

ETA: I don't agree that newer skaters are held down. There have been some amazing debuts in dance. Which performances or skaters are you talking about?

I don't think it is definietly getting scrapped. Might just be a rumour floating around.

I was talking about Ladies and Mens since we don't see much Pairs or Dance in USA.

I think if the compulsary Dance is eliminated it would be bad for the sport - but good for the judges if they want to continue cheating.

 

[Tonichelle]

P.S. actual question i raised is still not unanswered but the post is highjacked by the observation of the media i made.

it's not been hijacked

and you said commentators... Scott Hamilton fell all over himself in 1994 for those two. He and Sergi were good friends... I have a hard time believing that Katia and Sergei were never shown support over here. Granted I know Lloyd Eisler was none too pleased with their return in 1994 - but then again a lot of skaters that came back from the pros heard the same grumblings around them because it was felt that they had their shot and they should be happy with it. Boitano's comeback was just as "controversial" as theirs was over here. But at least they delivered the goods, so they were forgiven

I don't have your answer to your question, and I did take some offense to the suggestion that we're all sitting here waiting to badger the poor Russian skaters/teams... I don't care to understand Ice Dance in the 6.0 system. It makes no sense to me without seeing a rundown of what what scored and how.

. Apparently CoP decided this is not a good thing.

whoa, time out. CoP isn't rumored to be dropping it, the ISU is doing it because it's "boring" - much in the same way that figures was boring. It is rarely EVER shown on TV in the states, and people sitting in the stands complain about listening to the music 24 + times (not counting practice and warm up). Aside from Midnight Blues, though, I've never had a problem watching the compulsaries for two days straight at nationals (again, practice and competition) midnight blues music would put anyone to sleep, man.

Then you have coaches like Igor who say they are too highly regarded and has his teams focus on the other two thirds of skating (and no, life, I am not pointing this out because he's another evil Russian. I actually love Igor and Marina and many of their teams and what they've done for the sport in N. America... we're lucky to have them). I'm sure he's not the only one, I just recall reading his words/thoughts on it.

 

[i love to skate]

P.S. actual question i raised is still not unanswered but the post is highjacked by the observation of the media i made.

What was the question?

I was talking about Ladies and Mens since we don't see much Pairs or Dance in USA.

I think if the compulsary Dance is eliminated it would be bad for the sport - but good for the judges if they want to continue cheating.

Patrick made a very good debut in 2008 Worlds and had a very good Grand Prix circuit. Brandon Mroz was well received on the GP too. As for the newer US ladies, they have routinely struggled with underrotations and some of the skaters such as Mirai at SC, had virtually little performance quality. Caroline doesn't project when she performs. Rachael had a very good competition at Skate America and was rewarded by winning the freeskate.

 

[life684]

What was the question?

Whether B/K made the two mistakes listed by coleengray in their CD, sorry if that didn't come across as strongly as the other things i listed.

And i am not a fan of 6.0 system and i like the new system, though would like to see some changes in it

 

[Buttercup]

I don't think it is definietly getting scrapped. Might just be a rumour floating around.

The IOC has basically told the ISU to drop the CDs - they've been pushing for it for a while now. I'm guessing it's a ratings issue. There have been rumors that Speedy is pushing a WTT-like event at Olys instead. A few months ago the ISU had several dance teams come and present different options for CD/OD hybrids. I'm not sure where this matter stands, except that it seems very likely that there will be no CDs in Sochi.

As for the rest of this discussion, I am so not going there. I bet everyone can guess what my thoughts are, anyway .

 

[Tonichelle]

when the CDs leave the sport entirely I'm not sure I will hang around as much... truly... it's what makes Ice Dance make sense.

 

[i love to skate]

Whether B/K made the two mistakes listed by coleengray in their CD, sorry if that didn't come across as strongly as the other things i listed.

And i am not a fan of 6.0 system and i like the new system, though would like to see some changes in it

I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question, that's why it hasn't been answered

ETA:

The IOC has basically told the ISU to drop the CDs - they've been pushing for it for a while now. I'm guessing it's a ratings issue. There have been rumors that Speedy is pushing a WTT-like event at Olys instead. A few months ago the ISU had several dance teams come and present different options for CD/OD hybrids. I'm not sure where this matter stands, except that it seems very likely that there will be no CDs in Sochi.

As for the rest of this discussion, I am so not going there. I bet everyone can guess what my thoughts are, anyway .

Thanks Buttercup! I had heard about a possible team event - which I think is a terrible idea. Please do add your comments! I'm really interested in everyone's ideas and comments

 

[KKonas]

Whether B/K made the two mistakes listed by coleengray in their CD, sorry if that didn't come across as strongly as the other things i listed.

And i am not a fan of 6.0 system and i like the new system, though would like to see some changes in it

I believe it was Courtney Jones (retired ISU honcho and 1959-60 world ice dancing champion) who made this remark regarding errors in B/K's CD at the time. Unfortunately it was 12 years ago and I don't have a copy of his remarks.

 

[Ptichka]

I agree that ice dancing is a much better judged sport now than it was under 6.0. However, I don't much like what CoP has done to choreography. I think it's too point-driven, with programs that are too much alike. Then again, it did make it "more of a sport"...

 

[gkelly]

Exactly.

I don't know what the answer would be to encourage more creativity in the free dances and still keep them judgeable on an even playing field.

ODs seem to be just as structured/regulated as ever and just as artistically successful as ever, IMO. It's just the specifics of the structure that are different.

I'd prefer never to go back to the 2-3 rhythms per OD that started in the 6.0 era.

 

[jcoates]

Buttercup is right that the CD's proposed elimination is an IOC driven move. They want all skating disciplines to be pared down to two segments each.

Nevertheless, several ISU officials, most notably, Courtney Jones, have said that CD's will remain in use in their current form for juniors because they are the basis of the way the discipline is taught.

As far as hybrid CD/OD, I saw some video of the test event and was not impressed with the offerings. Still, the nature of the OD gets changed once every twenty years or so (anyone remember OSP's?), so we are due for the next one. We shall see.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Random thoughts on what's been mentioned.

1. I think it's pretty inarguable that the judging in dance has improved since the 6.0 days. The two Russian teams beating Torvill and Dean in 1994 was pretty bad, of course, but the block judging at the Olympics in Nagano. I often wonder how close Lobacheva/Averbukh were to winning in 2002 SLC and what would've happened if the pairs scandal didn't come to light. But frankly, when you have an event where there literally is no change from OD to FD and final results, you wonder how it's even plausible that people didn't fix the situation sooner.

2. While it's too easy to blame block judging for the Nagano results, I don't think they're THAT out of place. Bourne/Kraatz's OD was notoriously weak, for example. I also recall them blaming block judging for a result at a competition where the Canadian Judge agreed with the results (I think the only judge out of step with the rest was the American one, but don't quote me on that). That stated, the fact is, even if you agree with the results (and I do), they were robbed of a fair hearing. Disappointing, to say the least.

3. It's interesting to hear Ptichka comment about the similarity in modern ice dance, because I feel it's still quite diverse. Of course, whenever you shift towards a more objective standard, you're gonna lose some of the variances. But I feel that ice dancing as neatly side-stepped that. I think the variety in straight line lifts that can get level fours neatly illustrates that, as an example.

But I was curious, so I went and youtubed some videos. Here are the 1999 FDs from the top five at worlds.... (or the top five I could find, anyway)

1. Krylova/Ovsyannikov: "African Drums"
2. Anissina/Peizarat: "Man in the Iron Mask"
3. Bourne/Kraatz: "Heart Attack" (not on Youtube)
4. Lobacheva/Averbukh : "Diablo" (from NHK. I think they performed the same dance at Worlds)
5. Fusar-poli/Margaglio: Also cannot find
6. Drobiazko/Vanagas: "Sunrise at Alcatraz"
7. Winkler/Lohse: "Japanese Music" (from Euros).

Now, this is a pretty diverse group of dances. K/O's is practically avant-garde for ice dance (so so strange. I love it, though). Intriguingly, only one of the five dances feels like a romantic one (A/P - though to be fair, I didn't finish watching L/A. Very boring they were). So now, let's jump forward 8 and 10 years. Eight years because it fits the Olympic cycle (both worlds would be one year after the games) and 10 because it's a nice number (getting us into a couple years more of COP and giving us a slate of skaters who had spent most, if not all, of their senior years as COP skaters).

2007 (is it bad that I have the top sevens memorized?)
1. Denkova/Staviski: "Seven Deadly Sins"
2. Dubreuil/Lauzon: "At Last"
3. Belbin/Agosto: "Amelie"
4. Delobel/Schoenfelder: "Bonnie and Clyde" (Cup of Russia)
5. Domnina/Shabalin: : "Polovetsian Dances"
6. Virtue/Moir: "Valse Triste"
7. Davis/White: "Polovetsian Dances"

Obviously, two Polovetsian dances so ouch for diversity. But even there, you see considerable differences (D/W are much softer than the imposing Dom/Shabs). And it's a quieter group of choices, I feel: "Amelie," "At Last," and "Valse Triste" are all reasonably subtle pieces of music (compared to the earlier group). So yeah, I'll say it's a bit less diverse. Nothing as outrageous as K/O's, at the very least. But the improvements made to the sport itself in terms of athleticism really counteract that for me. And now, off to....

2009
1. Domnina/Shabalin: "Spartacus"
2. Belbin/Agosto: "Tosca
3. Virtue/Moir: "Great Gig in the Sky/Money"
4. Davis/White: "Samson and Delilah"
5. Pechalat/Bourzat: "Circus"
6. Khoklova/Novitski : "Rhapsody on a Theme (Euros)
7. Kerr/Kerr: "Ruled by Secrecy"

More comments tomorrow. Sleepy now.

 

[dorispulaski]

Here's the remaining two files for 1999

1999
Shae Lynn Bourne & Victor Kraatz Meet Me at the Love Parade third place
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9RnQm_4P70

Fusar Poli & Margaglio Dracula fifth place
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYWbqCyTI3o

For the COP era, you should probably list where those teams placed in the FD, rather than the overall placing, and especially showing how little the judges were able to decide between the top 4 teams in the FD in 2009. The four dances were within one point of getting the same score, which is really too close to call.

And of course that means that the actual placement was determined more by the CD and OD than the FD, which is apt to be controversial, because many fans don't bother to either watch or understand the CD's. COP makes it easier to understand what happened afterwards. And by highlighting (and indeed having) required elements, it's easy to see where the technical elements are and why one team is better than another in them.


2007 FD

Competitor Country Total Score TES PCS

1 Albena DENKOVA / Maxim STAVISKI BUL 102.09 53.22 48.87
2 Marie-France DUBREUIL / Patrice LAUZON CAN 100.96 52.54 48.42
3 Isabelle DELOBEL / Olivier SCHOENFELDER FRA 99.17 52.20 46.97
4 Tanith BELBIN / Benjamin AGOSTO USA 96.41 50.61 46.80
5 Oksana DOMNINA / Maxim SHABALIN RUS 95.81 49.62 46.19
6 Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR CAN 95.38 52.27 43.11
7 Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE USA 92.17 51.00 42.17

2009 FD

1 Oksana DOMNINA / Maxim SHABALIN RUS 100.85 50.70 50.15
2 Tanith BELBIN / Benjamin AGOSTO USA 100.27 50.50 49.77
3 Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE USA 100.03 51.20 48.83
4 Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR CAN 99.98 50.70 49.28
5 Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT FRA 95.99 49.80 46.19
6 Jana KHOKHLOVA / Sergei NOVITSKI RUS 94.39 48.20 47.19
7 Sinead KERR / John KERR GBR 90.64 47.10 43.54

BTW, it should be remembered that K&N skated really well at Europeans (which they won) and not very well at Worlds, which explains their placement behind P&B, whom they beat at Europeans.