Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[rabidline]

Daisuke should have won the 2010s Olympics, just saying.

I also find the idea that most humans aren't into music and don't respond with wanting to sing/dance absolutely wild.

OP once said they became a FS fan after watching Shoma I believe? One of the most musical skaters of all time, who lives and breathes the music with his whole body and who said he doesn't really like jumping all that much?

To be fair, Shoma never said he doesn't really like jumping- he said he's not good at it (self aware). This was when he was still pretty young- he said he's not good in jumps and he's kinda good in steps. Also Shoma's on record of saying "wtf are you talking about" when he was told that his fans said his musicality is great, because he doesn't feel like he does anything special and there are many better skaters than him in skating.

But I kinda get what the OP mean, because I had a similar problem in the past. You mentioned Shoma was musical, and I agree, and I was curious enough to look deeper into the skating fandom to find information about him and figure skating after watching his past skates (after noticing him at Olympics 2018). Imagine how it felt to finally find a skating fan community, and have it eviscerate the skater you're interested about every single week because he jumps wrong, he's overscored, his skating and jumping is ugly, so on and so on. You're not even allowed to talk about his good points without saying "I know his jumps are bad but..." Imagine being a normal person who is like, "wow he skates really well with the music and it's so nice to watch" and then having to read this "constructive" criticism which is basically a passive-aggressive facade of hating him for scoring high every single time he competed. And then being told to like the "correct" skaters because they're much better and is more worthy to root for, but you just don't see it. That's not why I was here in the first place!

That's how it looks like to fans who got into skating, who want to learn more about skating, because they find Ilia and Trusova and Shaidorov and the non-PCS, non-artistic jumpers interesting enough to want to root for them.

 

[DancingCactus]

I don't know. If you want adoration without discussion about certain skaters, I guess that's what the fan fests are for?
But in the competition and general threads, there are going to be different opinions about different skaters. I'm trying not to be rude - there are some skaters I just can't stand and I'm trying to word it as objectively as possible, but if we don't want to hear other peoples' opinions and have discussions, we might als well go on Twitter and scream into the void. Apart from a few exceptions, it feels like the majority of users try to keep their criticiscm polite?

 

[rabidline]

I don't know. If you want adoration without discussion about certain skaters, I guess that's what the fan fests are for?
But in the competition and general threads, there are going to be different opinions about different skaters. I'm trying not to be rude - there are some skaters I just can't stand and I'm trying to word it as objectively as possible, but if we don't want to hear other peoples' opinions and have discussions, we might als well go on Twitter and scream into the void. Apart from a few exceptions, it feels like the majority of users try to keep their criticiscm polite?

There are many alternatives now on where to find information and discussion. But it was how it looked like from the perspective of a new fan who was excited.

 

[4everchan]

There are many alternatives now on where to find information and discussion. But it was how it looked like from the perspective of a new fan who was excited.

I was an old fan already when I joined this forum. I joined in Patrick's year's off. I didn't even know it was a year off... I thought he was done. He already had 3 world titles, 2 olympic medals and had gone to two OGs. And I chose that current username as to me, he would remain my fave, even though I was willing to discover a bunch of new skaters.
I joined because of the void I felt from my guy "retiring" but also because this site was a great resources for online streaming and so on. Fans knew where to watch figure skating... It wasn't as easy as it is nowadays and yet, we still would like every competition to be streamed which is not the case (other debate).

In any case, I just wanted to sympathize with you because I wasn't very welcomed positively by many fans of other skaters who didn't like Patrick for whatever reasons. I had a very difficult entrance into the world of forums I got myself in trouble by arguing and trying to "defend" my skater. I learned better now... I guess I was just a "young and passionate" fan when forums are concerned but the reality is that I had been following skating for a long time and always found new skaters to cheer for... My favourite was actually Jeff Buttle for so many years and then, there were Nathan and Shoma who both competed and won against Patrick, yet, I'd still cheer for them (+ local young talents Nic Nadeau and Jo Phan) I mentioned it in this thread before, a sustainable fan is one who likes the sport first and the specific skaters second And this is why I am still active though in recent years, all my faves have retired Now, I am cheering for Adam, Lukas, Frangi, Yuma and Kao among many others and there will be many more.

When someone looks at figure skating as a cyclical sport, with relatively shorter careers than in some other sports, then the GP series is perfectly fine..... It has ups and downs... New stars are created... others shine less and fade. It's the beauty of the sport. Shoma's retirement created a big void in men this year. Sometimes, a discipline only needs a couple retirements to feel empty.. and then the following year, the new stars are bright and the discipline is stacked.

 

[Jeanie19]

I was an old fan already when I joined this forum. I joined in Patrick's year's off. I didn't even know it was a year off... I thought he was done. He already had 3 world titles, 2 olympic medals and had gone to two OGs. And I chose that current username as to me, he would remain my fave, even though I was willing to discover a bunch of new skaters.
I joined because of the void I felt from my guy "retiring" but also because this site was a great resources for online streaming and so on. Fans knew where to watch figure skating... It wasn't as easy as it is nowadays and yet, we still would like every competition to be streamed which is not the case (other debate).

In any case, I just wanted to sympathize with you because I wasn't very welcomed positively by many fans of other skaters who didn't like Patrick for whatever reasons. I had a very difficult entrance into the world of forums I got myself in trouble by arguing and trying to "defend" my skater. I learned better now... I guess I was just a "young and passionate" fan when forums are concerned but the reality is that I had been following skating for a long time and always found new skaters to cheer for... My favourite was actually Jeff Buttle for so many years and then, there were Nathan and Shoma who both competed and won against Patrick, yet, I'd still cheer for them (+ local young talents Nic Nadeau and Jo Phan) I mentioned it in this thread before, a sustainable fan is one who likes the sport first and the specific skaters second And this is why I am still active though in recent years, all my faves have retired Now, I am cheering for Adam, Lukas, Frangi, Yuma and Kao among many others and there will be many more.

When someone looks at figure skating as a cyclical sport, with relatively shorter careers than in some other sports, then the GP series is perfectly fine..... It has ups and downs... New stars are created... others shine less and fade. It's the beauty of the sport. Shoma's retirement created a big void in men this year. Sometimes, a discipline only needs a couple retirements to feel empty.. and then the following year, the new stars are bright and the discipline is stacked.

Your post could have been written for me. Insert Evgenia Medvedeva for Patrick. And I have new favorites Kevin, Deniss, Jacob and now Rino. Plus many I really like....

 

[rabidline]

That's the thing, everyone's entry point to skating is different. The reason I started having an interest on this sport for giving a place for all kinds of skaters to express themselves was because of that one skater opening my eyes to it, regardless of whether their way to express themselves is something I personally enjoy or not. Thankfully now there are a lot more spaces on internet to find when people start enjoying skating, and the atmosphere is decidedly less hostile than how it was, probably because there are much less at stake.

Giving less platform by downsizing the GP is not a solution because you just don't know when and with which skater that eureka moment can happen for others. But then you get to the biggest problem is right now: you really can't watch the sport anywhere unless you're not geoblocked.

 

[eppen]

Ploughed through this thread and it was fascinating to hear about the shift twards Russianness (so to say) in the Russian GP series. I think it has been coming since the skaters have been using more Russian language music, but I had not really paid attention to the scoreboard...

However, I was wondering how have the audiences received this attitude and also the change in number of competitions? I have not watched all of them but was struck by how empty the stands were at Krasnoyarsk and even in the last comp at St Petersburg there were quite a lot of empty seats... So I checked and Moscow the same - lots of empty spaces. The Kazan rink looked tiny and that one also not so full. Magnitogorsk was fine, though. Also, it was interesting to note that pairs and dance were not included in all the comps.

I have really not paid that much attention to how full the stands have been in previous two seasons in Russia, but somehow it did surprise me to see the emptiness this year.

Compared to the ISU GP Series, not much difference in attendance IMO... I was at France which was packed esp. on the 2nd day and at Finlandia Trophy which was half full. Japan was packed, China looked fine, SKAM and SC also not so bad. At Finlandia, it was great to see that they had a lot of local sponsors and not just the (Japanese) ISU sponsors like in France.

They might also have some of the most skilled novice/junior ladies in the world, but the audiences are seemingly equally uninterested in attending the comps as in the rest of the world...

E

 

[eppen]

And on a slightly not so thread-specific matter, @4everchan on Yuma Kagiyama and his free with the 4F attempts. Watch his frees from last year and now side by side and you will notice that a) Yuma likes a short intro, about 10-15 s, 2) his first quad is around 20 s into the program. Then he does about 20 s of transitions before the next jump. Last year the 4S led the way and 4F followed. No real change in this. It is possible that the curving entry into the 4S looks slightly more interesting than the straight one to 4F but it does not change the entry times at all. So there is realle no wasted choreo time this year like there was none last year.

This is also a very common way to pace the jumps for most top men - intro 10-20 s, first jump 10 s after that and then the slightly longer transitions before the second jump, usually around 20 s, and then another 20 s for the third jump. (And already in the 4 min 30 s programs - time Patrick's TEB free for his timekeeping and notice that it is just about that.) This is not so different even for Jason Brown who had 20 s intro, 15 s for 3A, 22 s for 3A combo and 16 s for the 3Lz.

I have also started to wonder what people mean when they talk about crossovers and quadsters. The top men do 3-4 crossovers in the corners before other steps and transitions before the jump. This is eg what Yuma did - 3-4 for the 4F, followed by 3-4 for the 4s and 5-6 for the 4T combo. Malinin did about the same numbers for the first three jumps in his free this season 3-4-3. Jason Brown btw used 3 before 3A, 7 before the 3A combo, 7 before 3Lz and 2 before 3S. Shaidorov started with 3-4 but then needed a lot more for the following jumps (he has still some way to be really a top contender).

So, what was deemed as "crossovers" for Yuma was maybe actually the slightly dead air that preceeds the most difficult jumps, not actual crossovers. (And just check the length of dead air for Jason before his both 3As. He needs also a longish jump prep time for all but the 3S and 3Lo+2T at the end. This could also be a choreographic choice, though.)

E

 

[Mathman]

...there are some skaters I just can't stand and I'm trying to word it as objectively as possible...

That's the great thing about figure skating. We can like some skaters without being required to hate others.

For me, there is only one skater that I couldn't stand. This is Wolfgang Schwarz, the 1968 Olympic gold medalist (he beat the aptly named Emmeriich Danzer, a much superior skater, when Danzer missed a required figure).

After retiring from skating Schwarz went into the human trafficking business, kidnapping Eastern European girls for service in the West, and eventually was sentenced to 8 years in prison.

 

[4everchan]

And on a slightly not so thread-specific matter, @4everchan on Yuma Kagiyama and his free with the 4F attempts. Watch his frees from last year and now side by side and you will notice that a) Yuma likes a short intro, about 10-15 s, 2) his first quad is around 20 s into the program. Then he does about 20 s of transitions before the next jump. Last year the 4S led the way and 4F followed. No real change in this. It is possible that the curving entry into the 4S looks slightly more interesting than the straight one to 4F but it does not change the entry times at all. So there is realle no wasted choreo time this year like there was none last year.

This is also a very common way to pace the jumps for most top men - intro 10-20 s, first jump 10 s after that and then the slightly longer transitions before the second jump, usually around 20 s, and then another 20 s for the third jump. (And already in the 4 min 30 s programs - time Patrick's TEB free for his timekeeping and notice that it is just about that.) This is not so different even for Jason Brown who had 20 s intro, 15 s for 3A, 22 s for 3A combo and 16 s for the 3Lz.

I have also started to wonder what people mean when they talk about crossovers and quadsters. The top men do 3-4 crossovers in the corners before other steps and transitions before the jump. This is eg what Yuma did - 3-4 for the 4F, followed by 3-4 for the 4s and 5-6 for the 4T combo. Malinin did about the same numbers for the first three jumps in his free this season 3-4-3. Jason Brown btw used 3 before 3A, 7 before the 3A combo, 7 before 3Lz and 2 before 3S. Shaidorov started with 3-4 but then needed a lot more for the following jumps (he has still some way to be really a top contender).

So, what was deemed as "crossovers" for Yuma was maybe actually the slightly dead air that preceeds the most difficult jumps, not actual crossovers. (And just check the length of dead air for Jason before his both 3As. He needs also a longish jump prep time for all but the 3S and 3Lo+2T at the end. This could also be a choreographic choice, though.)

E

My point is more about the number of quads, not the type or the order of them. 3 quads is already quite a lot... and usually, the skaters will put them one after another.... at the beginning... but 4 quads, with Yuma when he added the flip (after injury, I believe he did a 3 quad program) is too much... Consider the two 3axels as well, and there is almost absolutely no time for choreography.

I know some people find the jumps the most exciting part of the programs. I love jumps. I love big jumps. Bring them to me. But what I find the most exciting is when a skater connects with the music and transcends this to the audience. Jumps get me excited. But it's a one note feeling. A good choreography has the potential to give me all sort of emotions and that's what I am missing.

My favourite skate of Yuma at worlds last year was his gala number. He was just incredible. He didn't quad his way through it.

 

[DancingCactus]

That's the great thing about figure skating. We can like some skaters without being required to hate others.

Maybe, if we were robots. It's not like I'm actively working on disliking Grassl or Ilia, but especially when I have to watch Grassl, I find his skating so viscerally unpleasant I can't ignore it (especially the cursed spin positions). Add to this his very bad decisions in the last few years and the fact that he doesn't get called on URs and dodgy landings as much as he should be and I just don't like him (as a skater).

I try not to rant about him too much unless provoked

 

[Mathman]

Well, I confess that in the now-distant past I was unkind in my mind to Irina Slutskaya, who I thought was less graceful on the ice than Michelle Kwan.

Over the years I have come around to the position that Irina was a great master of her craft.

 

[Mathman]

My point is more about the number of quads, not the type or the order of them. ..

I know some people find the jumps the most exciting part of the programs. I love jumps. I love big jumps. Bring them to me. But what I find the most exciting is when a skater connects with the music and transcends this to the audience. Jumps get me excited. But it's a one note feeling. A good choreography has the potential to give me all sort of emotions and that's what I am missing.

I agree. The reason that we like quads is that a quad is a "highlight element" in the program. Sometimes a program feels more like the skater is grinding away at an obstacle course.

Although that can produce a satisfying spectator experience, too, as with Ilia Malini's 2023 worlds LP or Nathan Chen at the 2022 Olympics.

 

[4everchan]

I agree. The reason that we like quads is that a quad is a "highlight element" in the program. Sometimes a program feels more like the skater is grinding away at an obstacle course.

Although that can produce a satisfying spectator experience, too, as with Ilia Malini's 2023 worlds LP or Nathan Chen at the 2022 Olympics.

ilia's performance at worlds, i was at the rink, was exciting. I cheered extra hard.. but it was just that... exciting better than bland or flat.. but not as good as let's say patrick chan's nationals in 2017 in ottawa... that was amazing... it was just everything from the brilliant jumping to the speed, flow, ice coverage, skating skills, edge control... mesmerizing.

i have not seen nathan live... that is probably the skater i wish i had seen now (and of course, my son.. Conrad, never seen him live... it was supposed to happen at worlds or at nationals this year... but skating god said no)

 

[Arigato]

ilia's performance at worlds, i was at the rink, was exciting. I cheered extra hard.. but it was just that... exciting better than bland or flat.. but not as good as let's say patrick chan's nationals in 2017 in ottawa... that was amazing... it was just everything from the brilliant jumping to the speed, flow, ice coverage, skating skills, edge control... mesmerizing.

I like CNational 2012. Even with the small blip on the opening jump, I love it. Who even skates big like this? Or the footwork? Only Patrick. This music is perfect for his sweeping style of skating. It's not every day I say I love a program's music, but this is one of them.

 

[Zora]

Maybe, if we were robots. It's not like I'm actively working on disliking Grassl or Ilia, but especially when I have to watch Grassl, I find his skating so viscerally unpleasant I can't ignore it (especially the cursed spin positions).

I rarely watch skating live these days and I just skip every program I don't like, which means I hardly ever watch men's skating lately. (And it used to be my favourite discipline.)

 

[Karoltyna]

Well, I confess that in the now-distant past I was unkind in my mind to Irina Slutskaya, who I thought was less graceful on the ice than Michelle Kwan.

Over the years I have come around to the position that Irina was a great master of her craft.

I still think Butyrskaya was superior and back in my teenage agnsty years I quarreled with my mom when Slutskaya or Kwan were ranked above Butyrskaya. Our neighbours got to involuntarily hear lectures about fs and judging system...

 

[Magill]

The problem with "hate" is that in most cases, though with noble exceptions, it is never called hate when it comes from us, from our own camp, or when it is targeting someone we do not like anyway or perceive as a rival or a senior to our own guy or gal. Then it is just "justified and reasonable criticism", “hard truth but truth”, “a justified opinion”, “just facts” etc. But the very same, or even milder words about our faves become to us an act of “obvious hostility and hate” which – combined with the selective blindness to hostile communication going the other direction – is allowing us to pose ourselves as innocent victims of mean attacks, and never ever question our own. In effect, regardless of the substance, hate is so often being called out not so much depending on what's being said or done, but about whom. And not just in FS, this is much, much broader phenomenon, you can see it in all sorts of discussions and it is much older than social media and internet which just made it more visible. That's human, I know, But sad, nevertheless.
And, of course, you would need someone you trust as objective and unbiased to tell what is what in the whole exchange seen as a cycle of action and response. But we usually do tend to perceive as objective and unbiased only those whose opinions are close to our own, so….

 

[Mathman]

For some reason Maria Butyrskaya never seemed to have enthusiastic support from her own federation, even though she was the first Russian lady world champion as well as six-time Russian national champion. She could be gorgeous on the ice, but she suffered from nerves which affected her consistency and also made her appear somewhat stiff in the knees at tines. She did not receive much encouragement from her early coaches and from the skating hierarchy.

Someone blew up her car. She lost a ton of money when the bank that was holding her winnings, at the direction of the Russian Federation, went bankrupt. Through it all she persevered and triumphed.

 

[Mathman]

...And not just in FS, this is much, much broader phenomenon, you can see it in all sorts of discussions and it is much older than social media and internet which just made it more visible.

The anonymity of the Internet has coarsened society, and not just for teenagers. We used to maintain a veneer of civility in discourse, but that seems old-fashioned now.

(However, that's probably wrong. Modern society does not have a monopoly on meanspiritedness, despite the selective memories of old curmudgeons like me. )