Is it OK that PCSs tend to track TES? | Golden Skate

Is it OK that PCSs tend to track TES?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I will stick my neck out and give the argument for yes, that’s OK (and in fact inevitable). First, if you mess up your technical elements, that obviously detracts from the overall evaluation of skating skills, diminishes the effectiveness of the presentation, and interferes with the execution of the full choreography.

So now we turn to: Does an excellent quad have greater impact on the program as a whole than an equally excellent triple does? To me, it seems clear that the answer is yes.

Any oposing views? :)
 
I will stick my neck out and give the argument for yes, that’s OK (and in fact inevitable). First, if you mess up your technical elements, that obviously detracts from the overall evaluation of skating skills, diminishes the effectiveness of the presentation, and interferes with the execution of the full choreography.

So now we turn to: Does an excellent quad have greater impact on the program as a whole than an equally excellent triple does? To me, it seems clear that the answer is yes.

Any oposing views? :)
If the mistakes are plainly visible and interfere with the program, like a fall, an awkward pop, bad landing or big hooking UR, yes that should have effect on PCS. A q, a UR or edge call that all require slow motion to see? No, they shouldn't. But the truth is that this is still basically 6.0 in disguise. All the numbers and rules just obscure the fact the the judges are free to pretty much do whatever they want. It all comes down to who the judge thinks is better, but the 6.0 was just more upfront about it. Not that's not necessarily bad. To me the points system always seemed like deciding who wins a football game by whoever has the most first downs. Lol They got busted cheating, kept the people, and changed the scoring system to another completely subjective system that this time is obscured by a wall of numbers to give them cover if we don't like their opinion.
 
No, it is not okay. But since you brought it up . . .

TES 106.85
PCS 97.14

TES 110.66
PCS 80.72

Had the PCS even been close with these two guys, all hell would have broken loose.

Hint: One of them was Patrick Chan.
 
No, it is not OK. That's not what PCS were for. Were they to follow TES and double on it, they might just as well be never introduced.
IMHO, they were to assess different aspects of the program and separately from TES.
Two separate panels, and with different competences, should be introduced to do it ok.
I always wondered how these TES judges are judging things like choreography, presentation or interpretation while they themselves surely are no expert on these. You should have professional dancers, ballet dancers, floor choreographers judge this, not people clearly focused on TES....
But then,. they would probably expect to be paid for their effort and would not be fooled by a dinner with some fed guy or a coach who is neither a star nor TPTB in their books...
Oh, and for starters, of course, any contacts between judges, TC, or other people on the panel, whatever you wanna call them, and the feds or coaches, should be strictly prohibited anyway.
Oh, wait, they actually are appointed by the feds now... oh!
 
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TES is for technical elements, PCS for the rest, not for boosting those with stable jumps. I was so furious with PCS Kornel Witkowski got at Euros because he still doesn't have stable 4Lz (yes, I'm still bitter). PCS around middle 6 for the guy who had the prettiest (ok, subjective) and one of most difficult slides this year and one of best 3A during the event (in SP)... And even skating people tend to think it was ok because because of pops and falls. Ekhm, I'll just walk from this thread for now :angry2:

Oh, and PCS for Jari Kessler, the guy whos spirals stand out, even compared to what women are now showing... They removed spirals and standalone element and still aren't rewarding it in PCS...
 
I can only agree partly. Obviously falls, awkward pops, stumbles etc. which truly break the flow of a programme should impact PCS (it's the last bit that's important) but not otherwise. Can't help but think of Alina's programme at the WTT which had wonderful flow (and enjoyment but that doesn't count) but was technically less strong than others. So what? The choreography, performance and skating skills were fine.
 
TES is for technical elements, PCS for the rest...
That is the part that I wonder about. Are the PCSs about everything "else" or about the program as a whole?

There really is a conceptual difference between 6.0 and IJS with regard to the "first mark" and the "second mark." With 6.0 the intent was that the technical mark covers technique and the artistic mark covers artistry. Sport and art, each considered in relative isolation from the other (in principle.)

Not so with the IJS. Now the disctinction is between between points accumulated for individual elements and points for the program as a whole. The Skating Skills component, for instance surely falls more naturally into the "technique" side than the "artistry" side, yet is grouped with choreography and presentation. (And for for that matter, once you see what the skater got for SS, multiply by three and you have the overall PCS. Back when there were five components, multiply by five, but make a tiny adjustment for the fact that Transitions -- being easier to quantify -- would be a half-point lower than the other four.)
 
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I always wondered how these TES judges are judging things like choreography, presentation or interpretation while they themselves surely are no expert on these.
If by "TES judges" you mean the technical panel, they are former elite skaters themselves (not necessarily true of the nine-person panel of judges. Their role is to identify and name each element, together with errors like under-rotations and wrong edges. Otherwise, they are not there to pass judgement on anything.

I personally think that having two separate judging panels, one to give their opinions on the quality of jumps and the other to give their opinions on the esthetic aspects of a program, would be going in the wrong direction. The strength of figure skating, compared to other sports, is the unity of a figure acting performance, not the division into this aspect and that.

As for the belief that they're all a bunch of crooks anyway, that is a separate issue.
 
If by "TES judges" you mean the technical panel, they are former elite skaters themselves (not necessarily true of the nine-person panel of judges. Their role is to identify and name each element, together with errors like under-rotations and wrong edges. Otherwise, they are not there to pass judgement on anything.

I personally think that having two separate judging panels, one to give their opinions on the quality of jumps and the other to give their opinions on the esthetic aspects of a program, would be going in the wrong direction. The strength of figure skating, compared to other sports, is the unity of a figure acting performance, not the division into this aspect and that.

As for the belief that they're all a bunch of crooks anyway, that is a separate issue.
By the TES judges I mean the nine-person panel who align PCSs with TES scores. They are obviously TES focused, no matter what they or anyone else says about it. Their deeds speak for who they are....

If you don't want choreo and other components to be assessed by people who are expert in these areas, then let's not pretend they are being assessed in any expert way. It is TES experts assessing presentation and choreo etc. which they are not really qualified to assess - and creating the mess whish we have here. Sorry, but it is either one way or another. You may not have expert judges who are not expert in the field they judge. And with all due respect, former skaters are not necessarily expert on choreography or presentation. Some even elite skaters are really rather poor in these areas, and I would not like them to move on to judge others on things they have neither mastered, nor valued themselves.

As for a bunch of crooks, one myth which needs to be dealt with is that transparency measures are required only when we think people dishonest, and it is some kind of conspiracy seeking that makes us demand it, while decent judges will be ok in any situation, and innocents will never suspect dishonesty. Nope. This is simply not true. Aniti-corruption measures, even most basic, help people to keep their integrity, while lack of transparency makes them more prone to fall even at a slightest opportunity.
Proven by decades of social research. :rock:
 
I am all for rewarding athletes for what they bring to the ice.

If that's big jumps... give them big TES points... but if their program is like a jump drill, do not reward them PCS.

Ilia doesn't deserve 9s. Misha doesn't either.

I'd be okay to give them 9s for flawless exciting performances in the presentation part... if they manage to bring the crowd down, then fine.

But not for skating skills and definitely not for composition.

It is ridiculous.
 
I don't think anyone has a problem with skaters losing some PCS for falls, the problem is that all too often the top jumpers get high PCS they clearly don't deserve according to the criteria in the rulebook.

Also, the fact that the three components of the PCS mark are virtually always within 0.75 of each other and most of the time within 0.5 of each other even before the marks of the individual judges are averaged, shows that the judges are pretty much ignoring the rules. If they were judging according to the rules there should have been plenty of cases of skaters with let's say really good precentation mark but only good skating skills or vice versa. Before they removed the transitions mark it was even more blatant when some programs which barely had any transitions were getting high 8s or even 9s for it.
 
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Personally, I don't think the PCS are ever fair. There is no rule book that prevents the judges from ranking the skaters in the top 10 and adjusting the GoE/PCSs. Judging will always be in the eyes of the beholder until measurements of speed/coverage/elevation, span control GoE and PCSs, save for the artistic impact.

Overall though, it's okay with me that technical difficulty of the program floats PCSs because I recognize the higher athletic investment required into higher tech and I'd rather want the risk taking to be awarded versus creating the PCS exceptions and making the rest of the field non-competitive.
 
I don't think anyone has a problem with skating losing some PCS for falls, the problem is that all too often the top jumpers get high PCS they clearly don't deserve according to the criteria in the rulebook.

Also, the fact that the three components of the PCS mark are virtually always within 0.75 of each other and most of the time within 0.5 of each other even before the marks of the individual judges are averaged shows that the judges are pretty much ignoring the rules. If they were judging according to the rules there should have been plenty of cases of skaters with let's say really good precentation mark but only good skating skills or vice versa. Before they removed the transitions mark it was even more blatant when some programs which barely had any transitions were getting high 8s or even 9s for it.
This is exactly the point which I was to bring up. Correlation between different component marks is exactly the proof of faulty judging from the methodological point of view. If these factors are not factually related - and they are not - and the scores go together on all of them, then clearly the judging is faulty - incompetent or corrupt. There is no other way to look at it if you know anything about scoring methodology - and common sense.
Different component marks should not be correlated and they obviously are, and they always were, which means the system never worked as it should. Removal of transitions as a component only made it visibly worse as this was the only tangible part of the PCS score.
 
Let’s look at choreography/composition. The choreographer prepares a program and if it is good choreography then the skater gets points for the quality of the choreographer’s work. Is this fair?

Yes, it is, because the choreographer can only work with what the skater brings to the table.

My all-time favorite piece of skating choreography was one time Mirai Nagusu was in a local club competition at age 6.. Her music was a cartoonish march, and boy did she ever march cartoonishly! Every step was right on the beat, every movement was in synch with the theme and even the phasing (such as it was) of the music.

But she didn’t get 9,50. Why not? Well, at 6 a skater is not capable of the nuance and variety that we expect of seniors.

Is it wrong that a skater’s choreography is more highly regarded if he works in feats of technical virtuosity as choreographic highlights and well-placed internal climaxes? Don’t we applaud more vinously for the prima ballerina in Swan Lake who can do 32 fouettes than to the equally graceful dancer who can’t?
 
Are we talking about whether a given skater's PCS should rise or fall proportionally to how well they execute their technical elements/what kind of TES scores they end up earning for each particular performance?

Or whether skaters who do high-value elements should automatically earn higher PCS than skaters who execute lower value elements with comparable quality?

In general, skaters who have stronger skating skills will be able to execute more difficult elements, more often with higher quality. Especially when it comes to earning level 4 on step sequences, but also on jumps to some degree, particularly when it comes to speed and flow in and out, depth and security of the takeoff and landing edges.

If a skater who has high-level skating skills but is not blessed with the ability to rotate quads or triple axels, or who chooses to omit those elements in a specific performance because of injury, illness, exhaustion, or reworking technique on specific elements, I do think their skating skills (and other PCS) should be scored based on what they actually do, skillwise, and not on the base value of their jumps. This is obviously more true for non-jump elements, where judges may not even be aware whether they earned level 1 or level 4.

Of course, a skater who is injured, ill, or exhausted might not be skating with their usually strength quite aside from what elements they execute, so the same reasons that reduce their base values might also reduce their program components.

For juniors, you might have skaters who are strong in skating skills and also several triples but in any given year may have to stick to double of their nemesis jump of loop, flip, or lutz if that's the required SP solo jump that year.

And doubling or singling jumps in short programs or omitting a combination without a visibly disruptive error, or failing to achieve the required position for enough revolutions in a spin (e.g., sitspin not low enough, foot below hip height in camel) might result in a significant loss of base value especially if the element ends up not counting at all but may not have any effect on the quality of the actual skating or performance. Also true in free skates, although just doubling one or two jumps without visible disruption may not have as big an impact on base value if other jumps in the program are rotated. Or maybe it will, if what should have been a quad combination turns into just an OK double.

Now that one of the Skating Skills criteria is worded as "Clarity of edges, steps, turns, movements and body control," that seems the more obvious component in which to penalize technical errors now, especially those that are not disruptive to the overall impression of the performance (e.g., q calls or even <, !, and e calls, with no other errors that would be evident to a casual viewer). Obviously, disruptive errors can and should be penalized in both Skating Skills and Presentation. And sometimes Composition, to the extent that errors interfere with executing the program as intended. E.g., a skater who usually gets rewarded for a creative exit from a jump or transition from a jump into a spin shortly afterward would lose that reward in performances where the jump landing is so bad or nonexistent that they are not able to include the creative exit or transition at all that day.
 
By the TES judges I mean the nine-person panel who align PCSs with TES scores. They are obviously TES focused, no matter what they or anyone else says about it.
This has not been my experience at all. The judges have two responsibilities. To judge the quality of the technical elements (GOE) and to judge the effectiveness of the program as a whole (PCS). I do not see any evidence that they take one of their duties more seriously than the other, or that they bring greater expertise to one task than to the other.

And in fact, fans grouse and complain just as loudly about GOEs and they do about PCSs.
 
I always wondered how these TES judges are judging things like choreography, presentation or interpretation while they themselves surely are no expert on these. You should have professional dancers, ballet dancers, floor choreographers judge this, not people clearly focused on TES....
This is an interesting idea.

First of all, part of the PCS is Skating Skills. That needs to be judged by judges who understand skating technique. You're calling them "TES judges," but if the panels were to be split between technical and what we might call artistic judges, then I believe the Skating Skills component should be judged by the technical judges. Separately from the TES, certainly in terms of base value and to some extent of execution.

Although I outlined in my previous post why there may be strong correlations between TES and skating skills, both in terms of underlying ability and in terms of execution on a given day. And also why there might be situations in which a strong skater who deserves high SS scores might end up with lower base value without compromising the SS at all.


As for Presentation and Composition components...

Skating judges have been trained to judge these components according to the criteria for judging them within the context of skating rules and traditions. Within that context, the experienced judges have more expertise than most fans or outside performing artists or experts in the evaluation of off-ice performing arts.

Some judges already have their own background/expertise in performing arts, outside of their skating knowledge. Others know nothing about the arts except what they had to learn as part of their judging training.

There could be definite advantages to bringing in outside arts experts to judge PE and CO; there are also definite practical obstacles toward doing so, primarily financial. As you note, these outside experts would expect to be paid and not just donate their time. And using more judges in total, if that were to be the plan, would rack up more expenses for the host.

Scheduling would also be an issue, especially for outside experts who might have their own busy careers in their chosen fields.

For the sake of argument, let's assume those practical issues could be resolved.

How would we want performing arts experts to be trained in the process of judging skating?

Do we want them to understand realities of skating technique and athletic demands that affect the kinds of choices choreographers make in laying out a program?

And the realities of technical program requirements that shape what needs to be included in the programs?

Do we want these outside judges to be educated in the history of skating choreography, famous programs and advancements in creativity, so they can recognize true originality (or homages to past works) in program themes etc., and also in technical content like new or rarely used types of jump combinations, spin and lift positions, combinations of steps and athletic moves that might be seen in sequences, etc.? Surely we don't want someone who hasn't paid much attention to skating before, at all or recently, to see the first skater in an event doing something they'd never seen before and reward them for originality, only to realize that although this move may have been rare last time they watched skating it's now very common and expected.

Do we want them to be exposed to skating as it is practiced at and below junior level, so they can work with a similar understanding of what 1.0 or 3.0 or 5.0 means on the 0-10 scale? Even if we're only bringing them in to judge elite events that don't include skaters in that skill range for SS? But if they think a senior level skater is deficient in PE or CO, can they judge them on the same scale as lower level skaters who might be similarly deficient in those areas?

Do we want these outside experts to get on the same page as each other as to what to reward and penalize? Or is it OK to let serious classical artists and hiphop or pop artists each to bring their own biases to the task? Or actors/directors vs. dancers/choreographers vs. singers vs. instrumentalists/composers vs. painters and sculptors, etc.? Professional artists vs. academics/critics? Should there be any effort to balance the outside-arts backgrounds of these outside artists brought in to evaluate skating, or will the skaters be subject to the luck of the draw or of who happens to be available that week whether they get a panel full of ballerinas or rock musicians?

I think it's fascinating to try to figure out how this might work. But the more I think about it, the more complex it seems to try to make a workable system that would be more fair to skaters.
 
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That is the part that I wonder about. Are the PCSs about everything "else" or about the program as a whole?

There really is a conceptual difference between 6.0 and IJS with regard to the "first mark" and the "second mark." With 6.0 the intent was that the technical mark covers technique and the artistic mark covers artistry. Sport and art, each considered in relative isolation from the other (in principle.)

Not so with the IJS. Now the disctinction is between between points accumulated for individual elements and points for the program as a whole. The Skating Skills component, for instance surely falls more naturally into the "technique" side than the "artistry" side, yet is grouped with choreography and presentation. (And for for that matter, once you see what the skater got for SS, multiply by three and you have the overall PCS. Back when there were five components, multiply by five, but make a tiny adjustment for the fact that Transitions -- being easier to quantify -- would be a half-point lower than the other four.)
Yup, skating skills are more tech than artistry, but still, there are many tech elements that aren't scored in TES and they should be reflected in PCS. The same way, elements scored in TES should be considered in composition - i.e. jump placed perfectly with music, but shouldn't affect skating skills.
 
The way judges put in their scores may lead to Tes focus. Each element is called in. Judges input their GOE. Then, only at the end, they give their PCs score. They are not looking in real time if there were nicely executed difficult transitions and if edges and turns were clean. They are, at the end of a program, giving their overall impression of the skate. It would be pretty difficult in my opinion to expect them from forgetting about a masterful technical display... Even if that performance was relatively empty from much else than elements. So there we have it, that's the whole issue. This is why having two panels would be better.
 
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