JFK's Assassination - The Grassy Knoll

[Tonichelle]

I'm watching a conspiracy special on the History channel...

so who's a believer that Oswald was not alone in his plot to kill Kennedy (I'm not in on that conspiracy, I do believe in the Kennedy conspiracy when it comes to Monroe... )

 

[JOHIO2]

Toni, I saw those JFK shows too. When I was younger, I doubted the Warren Commision conclusion that Oswald was the lone gunman. After all, I was only 12 when JFK was assasinated. I grew up in a rather paranoid time, what with the Cold War and VietNam. I always believed the government lied about what they had found as evidence.

However, as time goes on, I find it harder to justify my doubts. There have been lots of ways that the evidence has been explained over the years that make more sense to me. And, my own experience is that there are some people that are looking to make a name for themselves and will go to any extreme to do it. And weird things do happen, like the single bullet thing. The odds may be astronomical, but the result is there.

Conspiracy theories will always surround this murder because the world had so many options as a cause. The Russians, the Mob, the Cubans........etc. But, now, I believe the cause is a deranged individual who got "lucky" in his attempt.

edited to add: it's KNOLL

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Warren Commission was truly, a rush to judgement. Take a premise and make it work. They took Oswald and forced it to work. The refused any other evidence that did not tie Oswald to to the crime. That is fact. Not a theory.

Joe

 

[mike79]

When I was in university I wrote a few papers about this. I've read countless books on the subject. In my mind Oswald played a large part in the assassination but was part of some sort of conspiracy. Whether the evidence is circumstantial or not there is too much of it to simply ignore. Furthermore, I don't believe in the single bullet theory. Yes there have been those who claim it is possible to do the damage that the bullet did, but I don't buy it. The bones in Gov. Connelly's wrist are thick enough to convince myself and countless others that a single bullet is out of the question. The only thing going for that argument is the seated positions of Kennedy and Connelly.

However, I do not like when people watch Oliver Stone's movie JFK and think that they have the answer to the puzzle: 'It was anyone but Oswald!' While JFK is an incredible achievement in movie making, most notably for its editing, it certainly distorts many facts of the true story.

 

[julietvalcouer]

Nope. It was an easy shot with a rifle and scope, I've seen enough recreations to see how the bullets could line up with the wounds on JFK and Connally and their clothes, and three bullets could easily have been fired in the time frame. Oswald was a pathetic little wannbe Red who'd taken a shot at someone before and had the golden oppertunity with his workplace. His behavior after the fact confirms his guilt (why otherwise would he murder Officer Tippit?) I see no reason to look any further, besides the "Kennedy generation"'s unwillingness to acknowledge someone so small could take their hero out.

 

[mike79]

Nope. It was an easy shot with a rifle and scope, I've seen enough recreations to see how the bullets could line up with the wounds on JFK and Connally and their clothes, and three bullets could easily have been fired in the time frame. Oswald was a pathetic little wannbe Red who'd taken a shot at someone before and had the golden oppertunity with his workplace. His behavior after the fact confirms his guilt (why otherwise would he murder Officer Tippit?) I see no reason to look any further, besides the "Kennedy generation"'s unwillingness to acknowledge someone so small could take their hero out.

First off let me say that I believe you have a right to your opinion and I respect that. However, I don't understand your logic about those who believe in a conspiracy. No one needs to think that it was some large conspiracy. If I were to take that logic and apply it to your statement I could say that people who believe the Warren Commission findings must believe that governments (or any large organized group) could never do something like this.

I've seen plenty of these recreations. Why is it that Oswald gets the stars to align as he's attempting to kill Kennedy? Of course there's a chance it could have happened. Chances are greater that it didn't. It's like the lottery.

Until the day comes that we have time travel I don't think there will ever be definitive proof either way.

 

[Tonichelle]

edited to add: it's KNOLL

I know I tried to edit it last night but apparently it didn't take, off to fix it (Again!)

I think it's extremely possible for the single bullet... or the magic bullet that traveled so oddly through both Kennedy and the Governor... you're right it's a million and one chance, but I'm one in 16 billion that gets boils and burns when I come in contact with volcanic ash. Strange things happen to every day people. Sometimes good, sometimes bad...

a weird analogy, but I'm a firm believer that when it's your time it's your time...

I do agree that the whole thing seems rushed, but I think a lot of the conspiracy theories did stem from a very paranoid time in American history...

 

[SeaniBu]

Lee, by himself, act of desperation and government displacement in his own head. He acted alone - regardless of what he might have thought. Some have a hard time with the thought that a US president could be taken out so easily, but that is what happened. There MAY have been other conspiracies to kill JFK, but they were not apart of Oswald's. The only possibility I see, is MAYBE they new of Lee's plans and just let it go. But that is as close to anyone "being evolved" as I can see it.

Toni, I think you watched the doc with Dan Rather?? I saw that about 3 years ago and was living with a conspiracy nut - there are TONS of them in Boulder Colorado, TONS! and he didn't have a theory to stand on. Particularly after the audio evidence was analyzed. Dan sums it up nicely at the end.

I think a lot of the conspiracy theories did stem from a very paranoid time in American history...

ITA.

 

[mike79]

Just to clarify my position on the matter, I do believe that Oswald shot at Kennedy that day. I just think that there was another shooter working in tandem with Oswald. That by itself constitutes a conspiracy.

One of the stranger elements to the assassination was when Ruby killed Oswald. I will never believe that he did it simply to save Jackie from going through a trial. He was a very interesting individual who was scheduled to undergo a second trial but his death put that to an end. It would have been interesting to see how things would have progressed.

It's a shame that Oswald was killed because chances are that we wouldn't be having these debates anymore. I'm sure he would have shed quite a bit of light on the entire ordeal.

 

[Ptichka]

In my mind Oswald played a large part in the assassination but was part of some sort of conspiracy. Whether the evidence is circumstantial or not there is too much of it to simply ignore. Furthermore, I don't believe in the single bullet theory. Yes there have been those who claim it is possible to do the damage that the bullet did, but I don't buy it. The bones in Gov. Connelly's wrist are thick enough to convince myself and countless others that a single bullet is out of the question. The only thing going for that argument is the seated positions of Kennedy and Connelly.

ITA. I used to discount the consipacy theories because I am generally sceptical of them, but the more I learn about it, the more I don't believe it was Oswald alone. Too many people wanted JFK's death, and too many things just don't add up. Of course, conspiracies are always hard to discuss. If you don't believe so - just read any of the consipiracy theory threads at this forum after each major figure skating competition!

 

[Tonichelle]

no I didn't see anything that Dan Rather did... it was some conspiracy thing that they were showing late last night on the History Channel, and I didn't recognize Rather as the narrator

 

[SeaniBu]

One of the stranger elements to the assassination was when Ruby killed Oswald. I will never believe that he did it simply to save Jackie from going through a trial.

Ruby is a nut job. In texas you could / can carry a hand gun. Ruby did it to fulfill his vendetta and because he felt the people would conceder him a great man. His only comments were, "he shot my president, that's the man who killed my president." With a little liquor on his breath.

Lee was scheduled to be transported much earlier and Ruby was just walking by. If Lee - who chose to change and hold up the scheduled proceedings - would have came out when the "plan" was, Ruby would have been walking out his front door and been no were near Oswald. If Ruby had been standing with the press for a while waiting, I can see your "Manchurian candidate conspiracy" but it doesn't add up either. That is nothing on the conspiracy did. A conspiracy at that time would also mean expansion of the government agencies investigating and preventing. The US let the conspiracy be perpetuated, and as Toni pointed out, that was a paranoid point in our history too. Lee Acted alone and by himself.

Toni, it very much sounded like the one of the ones I have seen. The one with Dan was one of the best because they do All reenactments, study All evidence, AND use "technicians" that believe it was a conspiracy - only to disprove their own previous beliefs. Worth the find, and I said, Da n sums it up perfectly at the end.

The ONLY thing that is still a "possibility" is that the CIA knew that Lee had these plans and let him act ALONE.

 

[mike79]

The ONLY thing that is still a "possibility" is that the CIA knew that Lee had these plans and let him act ALONE.

I don't mean to be rude but please direct me to the place where it shows beyond a shadow of a doubt the Oswald acted alone, and I don't mean to the Dan Rather special which I have already seen several times. I prefer to listen to someone like G.Robert Blakey or those who were in Dealey Plaza that day (many of whom claimed to have heard something from the Knoll) than Dan Rather and authors like Gerald Posner on this subject.

 

[Tonichelle]

Dan Rather is passionate about the Kennedys as he was friends with JFK and remains close friends with the rest of the family. I feel he would say it was all figured out just to ease his own mind that his friends killer was found and all involved had met their fate...

but that was not the one I watched, this was just on the conspiracy and how they proved that you couldn't prove that there was no conspiracy...

I've seen others -again not narrated by Rather - that disprove the theories... at least in my mind. And so I'm ok with believing he acted alone...

but we will never really know...

 

[SeaniBu]

I feel he would say it was all figured out just to ease his own mind that his friends killer was found and all involved had met their fate...

Actually it is easier to believe it was a conspiracy is his point. And he like I, believed it to be a conspiracy. With the evidence he was forced to face the truth. People don't want to accept it. But after Dan looked he was admitting he had to draw a different concussion.

eta, maybe it is easier to believe it not conspiracy. Not for me though, JMO.

 

[mike79]

Well one thing is clear. This case certainly divides people; we need not look any farther than this thread!

If we ever find out definitively what happened in Dallas it will be a strange day. It would be great, don't get me wrong, but it would seem weird to not be able to debate the merits of either side of the argument anymore. It would be somewhat like the Watergate scandal. It was always interesting to wonder who Deep Throat was. When we found out it was great, but it ended much of the mystery surrounding the events which I found to be fascinating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The word: conspiracy immediately makes some people believe it is not factual. Why?

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

The word: conspiracy immediately makes some people believe it is not factual. Why?

Joe

That is not the case in Boulder - sorry that doesn't answer your question, for I agree some do discount any thing labeled a conspiracy - but if you say "it is a conspiracy" to a majority of people I know and the whole town of Boulder, people will assume it is true immediately. And bombard you with a thousand other conspiracy theories. Most of which I fully believe, but I used to about JFK too.

It gives some satisfaction to the idea "you don't know." It is a form of justification. JFK was larger then life, it only seems fitting that it would not only take something larger than life to bring him down but also that there had to be some "hidden reason" why he was killed. For everything the public knew "including Oswald if he acted alone" was wonderful, and no one could have possibly wanted him dead - hence it had to be a conspiracy just to justify JFKs death. No one could have killed the JFK we all knew. It has to be a conspiracy. There had to be some greater unknown reason for some one to kill him. He must have vetoed something, the Cubans wanted revenge, the Russian gov were mad that he foiled their plans." Some greater reason is justification. Some of those things may have been true, AND there was likely a few plans in the works to kill JFK - probably were the SS had been focusing their attention to miss this one little dude and let him slip by, or other groups that did conspire were detracting the attention away form Lee so he would get away with it, purpose or unintentionally.

Much like when some question their favorite skaters marks, or they promote something in FS. Some immediately say it is a conspiracy against my favorite skater or whatever. If you blame it on conspiracy you can justify it. Sometimes people would rather say they will never know instead of facing the truth.

IOW, I believe there were conspiracies to kill JFK, but I feel LHO was not a part of any of them. No one wanted, trusted or had faith in Lee. He was a renegade idiot that no one could have trusted with a single word, he would have slipped, he had a history of slipping. He was not trustable with information. He was a excellent marksman in the service. Yet they didn't want him. No one wanted him, and in his pathetic little brain he blamed Kennedy.