Ladies Finals: Am I the only one who....
- Thread starter Frau Muller
- Start date
I personally don't have an issue with fans rooting for their favorite skaters to win even if that includes wishing for whatever combo of great skating from the favorite and mistakes from others it takes to make the wish come true. Though that in of its self isn't pretty. I will admitt I've been there 
But that's a weakness in my character. I always hope for a well skated competition. What I don't like is for people to wish for whatever ensures a skater you don't like doesn win. I don't think threads like this one should be encouraged because it promotes hate instead of like. Even if that wasn't the intent of the original poster. I just don't see the need to hate enough to be happy that a skater didn't win. I know hate's a relative term but I mean it as promoting the negative for the purpose of the negative instead of a positive like the competitve placement of a favorite skater.
But that's a weakness in my character. I always hope for a well skated competition. What I don't like is for people to wish for whatever ensures a skater you don't like doesn win. I don't think threads like this one should be encouraged because it promotes hate instead of like. Even if that wasn't the intent of the original poster. I just don't see the need to hate enough to be happy that a skater didn't win. I know hate's a relative term but I mean it as promoting the negative for the purpose of the negative instead of a positive like the competitve placement of a favorite skater.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
This is not an unusual thread when it comes to a favorite.
Kwaniacs will defend Michelle to the hilt.
Sashadoras will do the same for Sasha.
Best to keep the tempers cool. At least there were no trolls in this thread.
Joe
Kwaniacs will defend Michelle to the hilt.
Sashadoras will do the same for Sasha.
Best to keep the tempers cool. At least there were no trolls in this thread.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
Sorry Red Dog, I don't know what happened to you so I don't understand.Red Dog said:
That's a great answer. Out of common decency I would probably do the same. But I wouldn't when someone is tryting to be cute and coy. No way!!
Dee
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Rgirl said:An attorney! But of course! Only a lawyer, and a good one, could so cogently state ideas that I've been aimlessly blabbing about in one overblown post after another in one beautifully constructed paragraph. That's the OGM of posts on this subject, IMO, Ant.
I hope you'll give me your permission to use it, with all proper acknowledgments of course, if I ever get into another thread in which this subject comes up again, which I hope never happens. But I'm not a pigs-can-fly kind of gal, so...
Anyway, bravo Antmanb!
Rgirl
There isn't an emoticon for blushing is there?!
Awwww - thanks Rgirl that's a very nice compliment - of course you can use it (flattery will get you everywhere!) !!
Ant
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Red Dog said:
But therein lies the beauty of the "freedom of expression" argument - you (generic you) can't have your right to freedom of expression protected to allow you to say something and then claim to stifle someone else's right to freedom of expression when they beat you about the head with your argument and tell you they think you are not only wrong but mean for saying wht you did...its all freedom of expression, invoking the argument means we have them all or none at all
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Dee4707 said:Ant, I agree about the costumes.
Red Dog has very selective reading skills and either doesn't like me or I am the most stupid person to walk the face of the earth. I will say though that Red Dog is one of my favorite internet people.
Dee
Thank goodness for that!! Crisis averted i can get all my bitchy comments about the costumes ready for next season!
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Red Dog said:
Ok so in the UK violence and drunkeness tend to go hand in hand with football matches...does that i mean i crave drunken brawls in the stands at the end of skating competition and fights with huge police presence and ambulances carting the victims of violence off just so that figure skating is classed more of a sport by the meat headed idiots who will never be convinced?
Should we give skaters balls to dribble about the ice because others don't think of our sport as a sport?
The figure skating as sport has been done to death but you insist on bringing it up every couple of weeks. If you want to keep having this debate its going to get pretty boring so let me summarise:
People who don't think figure skating is a sport, are never going to be convinced it is by anything anyone does to the sport...pointing out areas of similarity to other sports, like cheering when things go wrong for a team, isn't going to make Mike Macho suddenly think its a sport.
The real fans of skating don't think it should be changed to pander to the meat heads because firstly, we like it exactly how it is (tweaks to the judging system notwithstanding) and because the detractors will never be convinced. Figure skating is like NO OTHER sport...i don't need it to be like any other sport...if it was more like other sports, i would probably not watch.
The reason why I don't cheer people falling is simple - i want "my" skater to win the compeititon skating the best program he/she/they can perform. I want them to win beating every other skater, with the other skaters skating the best they can so that i can categorically say - there you go, not only do i love their skating but they truly are the best and no amount of whining that if so and so had landed their triple loop, or so and so hadn't fallen on their flying camel then "my skater" would not have won cannot be entered into.
WARNING: CAN OF WORMS ABOUT TO BE OPENED:...which is why Nagano in the ladies competition, in my opinion, has been rehashed to make it sound like Michelle went out on the ice like drugged zombie who barely attempted to breathe any life into her program i think part of that comes from fans who saw her nationals skate which was, i'm told magical (i didn't see it). For me it was the first time i'd seen it at the Olympics and i was blown away, she'd finished her program which was clean (anyone claiming the triple flip was flawed i will beat over the head with my tape cos it was clean!) and extremely well presented, i thought it won. But part of it is people trying to make excuses for her in defending her "loss" to Lipinski. To my mind there is no denying that Lipinski came out and skated a blinder too but with a slightly harder jump content. Either way, both skated well, my favourite didn't win, but i was so pleased to see a clean skate from the top two skaters ...and if you ignore Chen's "wing and prayer" 3T/3T, she was pretty much error free too.
That was my favourite podium of the ladies because of the performances that were put on the ice...we'd be hard pushed to find an other Olympics where any of those three performances wouldn't win...all would certainly have won this year.
Ant
03-30-2006, P4, Post #50
You are correct that Michelle went on to top her previous bests, at least under the 6.0 system. One point about champion Irina, however; whom I've loved since the first time she skated on US TV, which was when she won '97 Euros, IIRC. Irina won Euros a total of seven times, which is a record, and she beat Michelle at a number of GPFs. But Irina did not win Worlds until 2002, her sixth try, after coming in 2nd most times, but when through a period sometime between around '98 and '00 or '01 (I don't know the exact years, so if someone does, I'd appreciate the info) when she was only winning bronze or not even on the podium. Puberty hit Irina's body hard, so hard that she questioned whether she even wanted to keep skating. But, as we know, Irina came back and the rest is history. Sadly every LP she skated in competition from Moscow Worlds even through '06 Euros would have won the OGM. The same can be said of Michelle, especially in the '02 OWG. But as Joe so gently reminds us, lol, the skating that counts is what happens that night.
Perhaps the underdogs often win the OGM because they don't expect to win and perhaps don't train with such a stressed mindset, and may even not train as hard. Shizuka's "Nessum Dorma" was significantly watered down in terms of jump content. Even her new coach, Morozov, has been quoted as saying that when Arakawa called to ask him to coach her in December, "I didn't think she could win [the Olympics]." As Kurt Browning said on I believe the "Season Review" show, only in figure skating does the way a skater feels about himself as a person so greatly affect how he's able to compete, or words to that effect. And I couldn't agree more.
But I digress. Anyway, with Irina and Michelle, we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight through three Olympic cycles. With Sasha, her first major international event was the '02 Olympics, at which she finished 4th, which was considered by the media to be either a failure or at least a disappointment. (Prior to that she'd competed in GPS events, but those weren't considered "major.") When she finished 4th again at '02 Worlds, because Sarah Hughes wasn't there, "just" Michelle and Irina ("just" lol), her finish was again considered a failure because Sasha lost to Fumie Suguri, the Japanese National champion. From that point on, no matter how Sasha did in any other event all season, if she didn't win Worlds she was considered a failure.
The common "recipe" for how to gain confidence is to do something well, receive acknowledgment for doing it well, and improving in some way over time on that task or activity. Sasha has lived up to all the ingredients for gaining confidence except one: shee never received acknowledgment for doing well or improving. When she won World silver, the media headlines and commentators' responses, at least in the US, were that she "lost World gold again." She used to make significant mistakes in both the SP and LP at every event and, at Worlds, also in the Q round. In '03, '04, and '05, she improved not only on how clean she skated each phase of the competition, ie, clean SPs, fewer and less significant mistakes in the LP, and even a whistle clean Q round in '04, IIRC, but she also improved her performance quality. She skated with more relation to the audience and more noticeable joy in the moment. But the media and commentators still looked only at the color of the medal, silver, even against an unbeatable LP skate by Irina in '05. From the '02 Olympics on, Sasha never "won" anything according to the media and commentators. Even when she won '06 USN on the heels of the flu, her LP lacked "spark" according to Peggy Fleming, plus she "fell off the beam" said Dick Button when she stepped out of her 3sal/stp/3sal sequence and she only won, said many in the media, because Michelle wasn't there. Button however, did praise Sasha for the focus he saw in her.
My point is that Sasha was never given acknowledgment for her wins, even when she deserved it. Without that acknowledgment from "the powers that be," it is virtually impossible to build confidence and without confidence, improvement and interest in competition eventually end.
So I don't know if Sasha wasn't "made to be a champion," as you say RD, or if the champion traits of her personality got too worn down by lack of acknowledgment of her improvements and/or successes. Basically a nature vs. nurture, or lack of nurture, question.
This is one reason why I find writing about Cohen interesting. That is, there are so many unique variables to consider. It's not about making excuses, for me it's about examining what effect different situations have on making a successful skater or not. Of course we may never know with Sasha, but at least for me, it's interesting to try to understand.
Personally I think that saying "Sasha just wasn't made to be a champion" is looking at her too simplistically. However, whether she was made to be one or not, the fact is the circumstances that have surrounded and affected her are what they are and I don't think they will ever change unless Sasha starts skating clean SP/LPs every time and bringing home World gold every year for the next three years. OTOH, even when Tara won USN, Worlds, and the OGM, the media still didn't like her. By the time Tara came along, the media's love affair with Michelle was so strong, nobody could have gotten a positive reaction from the figure skating media and critics, no matter how she skated, IMO.
These things just happen--think Navratilova and Agassi in tennis; Kim Zmeskal in gymnastics after an undiagnosed stress fracture in her leg at the time of the '92(?) Olympics turned a previously supportive media completely against Zmeskal. Yours truly knew about Zmeskal's injury, which was diagnosed after the Olympics, when even The New York Times didn't know--I heard it from a commentator during a gymnastics event on TBS, for criminy's sake.
Anyway, that's the way life is. Overly fair to some, overly unfair to others. Seems like very few get it "just right" lol.
Rgirl
More than a little late here, but just to make a couple of points. Kwan lost the World title she first won in '96 to Lipinski in '97. Michelle also lost her '96 National title to Tara in '97. Then Tara won the OGM in '98 and, with a bad hip from all those 3lp/3lps, her physicians believe, but which probably nailed the OGM for her, turned pro to skate with SOI because, as Tara has said, she knew her hip wouldn't stand up to eligible competition.Red Dog said:
You are correct that Michelle went on to top her previous bests, at least under the 6.0 system. One point about champion Irina, however; whom I've loved since the first time she skated on US TV, which was when she won '97 Euros, IIRC. Irina won Euros a total of seven times, which is a record, and she beat Michelle at a number of GPFs. But Irina did not win Worlds until 2002, her sixth try, after coming in 2nd most times, but when through a period sometime between around '98 and '00 or '01 (I don't know the exact years, so if someone does, I'd appreciate the info) when she was only winning bronze or not even on the podium. Puberty hit Irina's body hard, so hard that she questioned whether she even wanted to keep skating. But, as we know, Irina came back and the rest is history. Sadly every LP she skated in competition from Moscow Worlds even through '06 Euros would have won the OGM. The same can be said of Michelle, especially in the '02 OWG. But as Joe so gently reminds us, lol, the skating that counts is what happens that night.
Perhaps the underdogs often win the OGM because they don't expect to win and perhaps don't train with such a stressed mindset, and may even not train as hard. Shizuka's "Nessum Dorma" was significantly watered down in terms of jump content. Even her new coach, Morozov, has been quoted as saying that when Arakawa called to ask him to coach her in December, "I didn't think she could win [the Olympics]." As Kurt Browning said on I believe the "Season Review" show, only in figure skating does the way a skater feels about himself as a person so greatly affect how he's able to compete, or words to that effect. And I couldn't agree more.
But I digress. Anyway, with Irina and Michelle, we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight through three Olympic cycles. With Sasha, her first major international event was the '02 Olympics, at which she finished 4th, which was considered by the media to be either a failure or at least a disappointment. (Prior to that she'd competed in GPS events, but those weren't considered "major.") When she finished 4th again at '02 Worlds, because Sarah Hughes wasn't there, "just" Michelle and Irina ("just" lol), her finish was again considered a failure because Sasha lost to Fumie Suguri, the Japanese National champion. From that point on, no matter how Sasha did in any other event all season, if she didn't win Worlds she was considered a failure.
The common "recipe" for how to gain confidence is to do something well, receive acknowledgment for doing it well, and improving in some way over time on that task or activity. Sasha has lived up to all the ingredients for gaining confidence except one: shee never received acknowledgment for doing well or improving. When she won World silver, the media headlines and commentators' responses, at least in the US, were that she "lost World gold again." She used to make significant mistakes in both the SP and LP at every event and, at Worlds, also in the Q round. In '03, '04, and '05, she improved not only on how clean she skated each phase of the competition, ie, clean SPs, fewer and less significant mistakes in the LP, and even a whistle clean Q round in '04, IIRC, but she also improved her performance quality. She skated with more relation to the audience and more noticeable joy in the moment. But the media and commentators still looked only at the color of the medal, silver, even against an unbeatable LP skate by Irina in '05. From the '02 Olympics on, Sasha never "won" anything according to the media and commentators. Even when she won '06 USN on the heels of the flu, her LP lacked "spark" according to Peggy Fleming, plus she "fell off the beam" said Dick Button when she stepped out of her 3sal/stp/3sal sequence and she only won, said many in the media, because Michelle wasn't there. Button however, did praise Sasha for the focus he saw in her.
My point is that Sasha was never given acknowledgment for her wins, even when she deserved it. Without that acknowledgment from "the powers that be," it is virtually impossible to build confidence and without confidence, improvement and interest in competition eventually end.
So I don't know if Sasha wasn't "made to be a champion," as you say RD, or if the champion traits of her personality got too worn down by lack of acknowledgment of her improvements and/or successes. Basically a nature vs. nurture, or lack of nurture, question.
This is one reason why I find writing about Cohen interesting. That is, there are so many unique variables to consider. It's not about making excuses, for me it's about examining what effect different situations have on making a successful skater or not. Of course we may never know with Sasha, but at least for me, it's interesting to try to understand.
Personally I think that saying "Sasha just wasn't made to be a champion" is looking at her too simplistically. However, whether she was made to be one or not, the fact is the circumstances that have surrounded and affected her are what they are and I don't think they will ever change unless Sasha starts skating clean SP/LPs every time and bringing home World gold every year for the next three years. OTOH, even when Tara won USN, Worlds, and the OGM, the media still didn't like her. By the time Tara came along, the media's love affair with Michelle was so strong, nobody could have gotten a positive reaction from the figure skating media and critics, no matter how she skated, IMO.
These things just happen--think Navratilova and Agassi in tennis; Kim Zmeskal in gymnastics after an undiagnosed stress fracture in her leg at the time of the '92(?) Olympics turned a previously supportive media completely against Zmeskal. Yours truly knew about Zmeskal's injury, which was diagnosed after the Olympics, when even The New York Times didn't know--I heard it from a commentator during a gymnastics event on TBS, for criminy's sake.
Anyway, that's the way life is. Overly fair to some, overly unfair to others. Seems like very few get it "just right" lol.
Rgirl
Thanks, Ant. Being able to use or refer to it will save me a lot of writing and, even more important, posters a lot of reading of overly written and confused attempts to say the same thing.antmanb said:
BTW, get ready to need that blushing emoticon again because I think your post #130 on this page is another award winner. Too bad GS isn't into giving awards to gold, silver, and bronze posts of the season from various folders.
I've tried tackling the "Fans hate the other guy in every other sport" assertion a number of times, but once again, what I really wish is that I'd written yours.
But since I didn't, I hope you'll give you permission again to use it with proper acknoldgments or at least refer to it. You should charge royalties. With myself along, you could probably make anywhere from 10 to 50...cents.:yes: Sorry, but I know the royalty rates all too well unless you're Tom Clancy or one of those dudes.
Also, ITA with your post on Kimmie and Surya. Now, after seeing Surya skate live with COI in her prime, I saw her skating in a completely different light. When she was out there skating a partly choreographed, mostly improvised program to the most beautiful and unique opera arias, looking absolutely stunning in a blue unitard (then not allowed in eligible skating), with a body that was so lean and muscular (but not bulky) that her percent body fat probably couldn't even be measured given the standard error, well, I fell in love, as did the entire audience. I went to COI every year starting in the late '80s (it had a long unwieldy name then) and every time Surya skated, the audience gave her a well-deserved standing ovation.
However, I still couldn't stand to watch her compete. She didn't even look like the same skater.
I've also seen Kimmie skate live with COI last spring and I have no idea where the comparison with Surya comes from. Surya was all hurky-jerky movement and no edges. Kimmie is smooth, sophisticated for her age, has a lithe gir-next-door look, and edges to die for. Hopefully puberty won't ruin that, but at least over the past year, Kimmie's skating in competition and on tour has given me nothing but pleasure.
Kudos again for yet another superb post. If I need any legal work....
Rgirl
Rgirl said:
I'm aware of the situation about Irina. And yes, isn't it tragic almost for the both of them. Their worst performances of those seasons were at the Olys. But once again, it's only the performance that night that counts, not what they've accomplished before. So therefore, they are not Oly Champions.
I think Shiz looked relatively calm at the Olys even though she had the game face on. I knew at that point that she was going to do well. I wasn't sure she would win, but I figured she would skate well. I think there's something in the comment that the Underdogs are the ones that often come out and sweep the competition. Even seasoned veterans like MK and IS couldn't handle the intense pressure of the Olys (as favorites). If they can't do it as the fav, I'm not sure anyone else can.
IIRC SHE thought placing fourth at the Olys was a failure. Sorry to be blunt here but I think she partly brought it on herself. However, the press here DOES to portray anything less than first as a failure (if you're in a position to win that is). So I agree with you there.
Also, I think you're right about Cohen's improvement being overshadowed by other FS news and the press. But another thing to consider is that she wanted to win, win, win. And she didn't feel any better about it than these negative press reports. She admitted this herself IIRC. I don't think it would matter much WHAT the press said about it.
I really don't know how much the press affects a skater because I'm not one. However, let me go off topic for a second. I was watching this documentary on ESPN classic about my hometown favorite Houston Rockets. They won the NBA championship in the years 1994 and 1995. During the 1994 playoff semifinals against the Phoenix Suns, the Rockets had the home court advantage. This was a best-of-seven series with the 2-2-1-1-1 format (the home team plays two, road team plays two, home team one, road team one, home team one). In not one- but BOTH of the first two games in Houston, the Rockets held a 20-point lead in the 4th quarter and managed to lose BOTH games. And you can guess what happened next- EVERYONE was slamming them. The Chronicle here had the headline "CHOKE CITY". In one of the interviews, one of the players (Mario Elie I think) said something like "I was reading all the papers...Choke City...No way they're coming back...they're out of it...everyone was killing us...I mean, no one gave us a chance." And then you know what they did? They used that as motivation to get stronger. They won the next two games in Phoenix, went on to win the series in 7 games and eventually won the NBA championship. So my point here is that it can work both ways; you can let it get to you and diminish your confidence, or you can toughen up and believe in yourself and just go out there and do it. The Rockets did the latter and despite heavy criticism among the press and being counted out by practically everybody (even their own fans), they believed in themselves and won those two titles.
I don't know how it works for a skater, though, whether the situation is different or not.
Again, see comment above. You have to believe in yourself, no matter how tough it gets or what everyone else says about you. IMO, if you let that get to you, you just will never be a champion.
It's hard to tell what might have become of her if the press left her alone. But I think she WAS nurtured...don't forget all the raving and praising she got in the early years. Then when she didn't deliver, that's when the slams begun. IMO, didn't the same thing happen to Kwan but she was able to rise above all that?
Allow me to be direct once again: I just don't think she's tough enough to be a champion. It's that simple. You have to be willing to stick it out even when things get rough. You have to dig deep and find the answer within. And you have to have enough stamina to get through a program and a season. Right now, she just doesn't have that. This is why I think she will give it up after this summer is over.
She's a great skater, I'll give her credit for that. There is much that she should be proud of. And she's one of the best out there. But if we have to raise the bar to the championship level, she's just not there.
yeah. I don't think she should be condemned, however, for not having won a (major) international competition. Very few people can do that. It's just that SHE herself wants it so bad and is unable to do it. I hope for her sake that she doesn't buy into what everyone else says about her and she can dig deep and believe in herself...believe that she CAN do it. (And prepare adequately for the competition, too...can't hurt.)
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Pressure, Pressure, Pressure. Irina and Michelle are extremely seasoned skaters. Any pressure they may have is turned into their adrenalin glands and they are on course with their best. Michelle was not at the 06 Olys. Not necessary to put her there, and Irina was hot on winning. She had a stumble and it shook her up because Shiz had skated before her. It was not the pressure of the Olys but the knowledge that she just blew the gold with that stumble, and the thoughts of Shiz. Very sad for Irina.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
I was in the stands. after Sasha's program, I was so upset I just left the arena. I didn't see Kimmie skate. I just read in the paper the next day, when we went back to Ohio, and I'm too polite to say what I did with the paper.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Rgirl said:Thanks, Ant. Being able to use or refer to it will save me a lot of writing and, even more important, posters a lot of reading of overly written and confused attempts to say the same thing.
BTW, get ready to need that blushing emoticon again because I think your post #130 on this page is another award winner. Too bad GS isn't into giving awards to gold, silver, and bronze posts of the season from various folders.
I've tried tackling the "Fans hate the other guy in every other sport" assertion a number of times, but once again, what I really wish is that I'd written yours.
But since I didn't, I hope you'll give you permission again to use it with proper acknoldgments or at least refer to it. You should charge royalties. With myself along, you could probably make anywhere from 10 to 50...cents.:yes: Sorry, but I know the royalty rates all too well unless you're Tom Clancy or one of those dudes.
Also, ITA with your post on Kimmie and Surya. Now, after seeing Surya skate live with COI in her prime, I saw her skating in a completely different light. When she was out there skating a partly choreographed, mostly improvised program to the most beautiful and unique opera arias, looking absolutely stunning in a blue unitard (then not allowed in eligible skating), with a body that was so lean and muscular (but not bulky) that her percent body fat probably couldn't even be measured given the standard error, well, I fell in love, as did the entire audience. I went to COI every year starting in the late '80s (it had a long unwieldy name then) and every time Surya skated, the audience gave her a well-deserved standing ovation.
However, I still couldn't stand to watch her compete. She didn't even look like the same skater.
I've also seen Kimmie skate live with COI last spring and I have no idea where the comparison with Surya comes from. Surya was all hurky-jerky movement and no edges. Kimmie is smooth, sophisticated for her age, has a lithe gir-next-door look, and edges to die for. Hopefully puberty won't ruin that, but at least over the past year, Kimmie's skating in competition and on tour has given me nothing but pleasure.
Kudos again for yet another superb post. If I need any legal work....
Rgirl
Thanks again for your kind words Rgirl (god knows i need them right now!)! You may, of course, use my post and royalty free!!!
I agree with you whole heartedly with the apprasial of Surya's skating. When i've seen her in exhibiotn galas she has been stunning, more choreo than she ever put in her competitive programs and still ripping off those 3/3s. The most impressive thing was a couple of seasons back seeing her land a pretty much clean 3Lp - a jump that by the time Nagano Olympics came round she wasn't able to land properly still because of her injury. Its really good to see she worked hard and got that back once she'd "retired".
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
The whole post was great but i just want to comment on the recognition of achievements you note in the section below:
I couldn't agree with you more about this and Sasha. One problem which i think most people had with Cohen in 2002 was her attitude and her personlity...i have to confess to actually liking her bad girl attempts and the running down of skaters...it was just too funny that someone who came onto the ice over emoting and doing pained pretty face while skating tryin to be oh so dainty was trying to knock her opponents flyin goff the practice ice...that is just my warped sense of humour though!!
Getting back to the point (and i think i do have one in here somewhere!), Cohen got 4th place at her first two senior international Championships...that beats Lipinski's first attempt, Kwan's first attempt, Hughes first attempt...she looked poised to be amazing....better than any of the list already mentioned. It was really unfortunate that people weren't sat around saying - 4th place on her first attmpet, wow, what a skater. Instead people were sad she'd failed to medal. That's tough, especially since, if she'd played safe and not tried the combo on the rough lutz or done a safe double, she may have won it there and then...who knows?
And from then on people expected slightly more than she could deliver. Part of what irked people back then was the hype created by her coach and herself. They all bought into the Sasha is the best in the world. They talked up her skating and told everyone who would listen that she would win...and she repeatdely did not. What all of the other girls did was give the standard soundbites, not have a wildly overinflated expectations about their performances. Criticse all you will, the skaters who say they wanted a "top six finish" or a "podium finish" that's what all these girls did, if they did it then they achieved their goals. Not one of them said "i'm going to win gold just you watch" and then always fall. I think if camp Sasha had kept their mouths shut and done the the standard soundbite people would have given credit where it was due. Because she herself talked up her "going to win gold" angle the media portrayed every comeptition as a loss.
Ultimiately i agree though, she achieved a lot despite a hostile media/figure skating fan and had she gotten that she would have done well. She should have stuck with TT who has a way of praising her skaters for the tiniest achievement that makes it so rewarding for them. She needs that kind of praise and belief full time not someone who panders to her.
Ant
Rgirl said:
I couldn't agree with you more about this and Sasha. One problem which i think most people had with Cohen in 2002 was her attitude and her personlity...i have to confess to actually liking her bad girl attempts and the running down of skaters...it was just too funny that someone who came onto the ice over emoting and doing pained pretty face while skating tryin to be oh so dainty was trying to knock her opponents flyin goff the practice ice...that is just my warped sense of humour though!!
Getting back to the point (and i think i do have one in here somewhere!), Cohen got 4th place at her first two senior international Championships...that beats Lipinski's first attempt, Kwan's first attempt, Hughes first attempt...she looked poised to be amazing....better than any of the list already mentioned. It was really unfortunate that people weren't sat around saying - 4th place on her first attmpet, wow, what a skater. Instead people were sad she'd failed to medal. That's tough, especially since, if she'd played safe and not tried the combo on the rough lutz or done a safe double, she may have won it there and then...who knows?
And from then on people expected slightly more than she could deliver. Part of what irked people back then was the hype created by her coach and herself. They all bought into the Sasha is the best in the world. They talked up her skating and told everyone who would listen that she would win...and she repeatdely did not. What all of the other girls did was give the standard soundbites, not have a wildly overinflated expectations about their performances. Criticse all you will, the skaters who say they wanted a "top six finish" or a "podium finish" that's what all these girls did, if they did it then they achieved their goals. Not one of them said "i'm going to win gold just you watch" and then always fall. I think if camp Sasha had kept their mouths shut and done the the standard soundbite people would have given credit where it was due. Because she herself talked up her "going to win gold" angle the media portrayed every comeptition as a loss.
Ultimiately i agree though, she achieved a lot despite a hostile media/figure skating fan and had she gotten that she would have done well. She should have stuck with TT who has a way of praising her skaters for the tiniest achievement that makes it so rewarding for them. She needs that kind of praise and belief full time not someone who panders to her.
Ant
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