Ladies LP

[frozenhell]

Miki was totally robbed here. SHE should have been in 3rd place. None of her jumps were more than 1/4 short; those downgrades were horrendous.

They should have given her that Quad, she did it so well. Some of her attempts at it have clearly being short but this one deserved a pass.

It REALLY pisses me off that her 2Axel-3Toe was called as underrotated when Kostner's was not.

If the callers are going to be so incredibly strict with the downgrades, the rule absolutely must be changed. This has been out of hand for much too long. Competitions are coming down to a coin flip on whether or not a jump will be called as downgraded. Mao lost Short Program for that reason and she certainly shouldn't have, given the big mistake Yu-Na made (and I like Yu-Na's program more).

Mao's UR in sp was pretty obvious in naked eye but I agree that Miki's UR was very borderline call. I thought she nailed her quad until I saw replay but I wondered whether judges would ratify her quad considering importance of that jump and it isn't like she missed by much. These days Miki just doesn't seem to get any love from judges.

 

[bekalc]

Personally, I like the fact that downgrades are punished. It gives people with good technique hwo rotate their jumps, a chance to compete.. It's a lot easier to well do all kinds of hard triple/triples, quads etc when your underrotating them. This is a technical sport why shouldn't that matter....

Now I think it would help though IF other errors were more penalized, but I'm all for penalizing the underrotations it was a LONG, long, long time coming.

 

[frozenhell]

.

And I don't worry the least about Mao's 3-3s. The girl who managed to fix her Lutz in a way, that doesn't make it an obvious Flutz anymore, the girl who put the Salchow back in her programs - a jump she hasn't landed consistently since Junior days, the girl who managed to fix her sitspin and apparently stabilised her 3Axel enough to be able to do it in combination - and all that in just one off-season - that girl can also get a 3-3 back on ice, that will be ratified.

You know, lots of skaters talk a lot: I want to do this or that, I want to be consistent on this jump and learn this jump, I want to include 3 Quads, I want to do a 4Flip, I want to do a 3Axel. Mao Asada doesn't talk much anymore - Mao Asada just does it.

Actually I am sure that Mao can land 3/3. I am just not sure whether it is possible to land 3/3 while attmepting two 3A. For Mao 3F/3T is much more difficult jump than 3F/3L. That's why she put 3F/3T in early part of program last year.
Now by putting two 3A before 3F/3T, she made it much more difficult job to land 3F/3T.
3F/3L became virtually impossible to get ratified these days and she will attemp this combo after 2minutes mark. Can her leg hold up?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Mao's UR in sp was pretty obvious in naked eye but I agree that Miki's UR was very borderline call. I thought she nailed her quad until I saw replay but I wondered whether judges would ratify her quad considering importance of that jump and it isn't like she missed by much. These days Miki just doesn't seem to get any love from judges.

No it wasn't. I call a jump landed when the blade has touched down, not right when the toepick has brushed the ice and the skater hasn't actually landed. She completed a sufficient amount of rotation on that jump.

That definition is one of many which remains ambiguous, though. I've said it a million times, but CoP needs exact definitions for when a jump should be considered landed, the point at which rotation should start being counted when a jump starts (ie - accounting for pre-rotation), and how much total rotation a jump needs to have to be considered sufficiently rotated.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Personally, I like the fact that downgrades are punished. It gives people with good technique hwo rotate their jumps, a chance to compete.. It's a lot easier to well do all kinds of hard triple/triples, quads etc when your underrotating them. This is a technical sport why shouldn't that matter....

Now I think it would help though IF other errors were more penalized, but I'm all for penalizing the underrotations it was a LONG, long, long time coming.

Very slightly underrotating a jump and landing it cleanly currently gets you less points than if you had fallen on the jump instead. That's the problem (in addition to the other things I just listed above). I don't think anyone is saying that underrotation shouldn't be punished...

 

[sorcerer]

Miki fans, don't worry... She can take all this, she's been through much more difficult situations.
And of course, if I could I'd ask Morozov to give her good transition passages!

Here are some of her words after the LP:
http://iceblue.cocolog-nifty.com/figure/2008/12/200864-bcee.html
"Though the scores weren't good I'm not discouraged. (It's because) I made the quad that I didn't even attempt for so many years! This season I really have a strong wish to jump quad. Though it was downgraded today, I'm so happy to have shown (to myself) that I can still do it in the games. I had a very long talk with my coach whether to go for it or not (in the LP). In the end Nicholai gave me his words 'Okay okay, I'll let you decide...' <Miki smiles here>."

 

[Buttercup]

This is just absurd that Carolina has gatherd this uch hate among the skating fans...sometimes I am really disgusted by fans comments...

Why should she be an imposter?? She is the only one who up until this season could even hope of being up there with Mao and Yu-Na if they made mistakes.
Thankfully also Joannie is in the mix this year.

Whatever, I just whish everyone would stop being so negative in general to skaters in order to support their favorites that they do not even recognize when others do make progress.

There's probably no need to repeat the same sentiment, but I just want to add words of my support for Kostner. She worked the system and deserved her placement. There's no point of wuzrobbing as long as the placement makes sense in the current judging system. COP has been in practice for more than five years, and every skater needs to study and work the system if they want to be competitive. Working CoP is not cheating.

Frankly I like both of Kostner's programs. The short is charming and the long is quite beautiful. Not to mention that Rochette's lay out is IMO not very COP friendly.

Honestly I'm beginning to feel that Kostner is more consistent than Rochette (at least at the bigger competitions) Kostner is a sweet girl and a good skater and doesn't deserved the hatred that she's getting.

Yay, finally some positive posts about Carolina! I'll repeat the sentiment as I was offline in real time and really like Caro as a skater. She's not the most consistent one out there, but she has good skills, nice jump combos, fun step sequences and some interesting programs - and she is not now nor has she ever been a baby ballerina type, which is refreshing. I've been watching her since she debuted at 2003 Europeans and feel she's grown a lot as a skater and a performer, and I still haven't given up hope for two clean programs from her at the same event.

Like kikakiks, I hope to see less negativity regarding skaters. To criticize their performances is one thing, but talk of impostors and wuzrobbed and conspiracies is not doing anyone any good, IMO. Every person we see competing has put in years of hard work, has sacrificed a lot, has probably worked through injuries and pain, and is trying to give the judges and us, the audience, the best performance possible. That's worthy of respect regardless of personal preferences.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Miki fans don't worry. She can take all this

Not if it keeps happening to her. Which it probably will.

She is performing her 3-3's exactly as she always has and then suddenly this year only 1 attempt out of 5 has been ratified. She did a solid Quad and got nothing for it either. That's not good for her or for the sport.

 

[museksk8r]

This is just absurd that Carolina has gathered this much hate among the skating fans...sometimes I am really disgusted by fans comments...

I agree 100%!

She is the only one who up until this season could even hope of being up there with Mao and Yu-Na if they made mistakes.
Thankfully also Joannie is in the mix this year.

How quickly people forget that Miki Ando is the one who won a World Championship in 2007 when Mao and Yu-Na both made mistakes that took them out of the gold.

Why do people never pick at Joannie? She is no better! Her skating skills are not exactly phenomenal, she is not the preeminent example of grace, she bombs whenever she is at an important competition, she is sloppy as well (beacuse she always pops jumps and is slow on spins) yet everyone lovs her...wonder why? She's from North America.

So your solution is that two wrongs should make a right? How is picking on Joannie or Carolina or any skater for that matter going to do anyone any good? ALL the skaters should be respected for all of their hard work and sacrifices. By picking on Joannie, you are the pot calling the kettles black, aren't you?

I just would like everyone to be objective!

Totally agree! It could be argued though that you are not being very objective by stating that people pick on Carolina and not Joannie because of their nationalities. I think it has more to do with some people not appreciating their styles more so than a nationality battle. I've seen plenty of people here rip into Rochette equally as much as they do Kostner. Go to the ladies threads here about this season's Skate Canada and TEB to see what I mean. Objectivity and rationality are definitely traits that skating forums need more of! :agree:

I honestly think she is very musical, she hits every nuance of the music, she just has a very different style, and it is fine if you don't like it, it's personal preference.

Well said! :thumbsup: I like her too!

She has become the very most hated skater on this forum, and this has brought me quite a few times to defend her even if I am not her biggest fan.

I feel the same way. It sickens me to see how much vitriol is directed towards her, but I've grown accustomed to ignoring much of it. Every skater has his/her critics, some more than others.

She does indeed always complete all of her planned elements

Unfortunately, she didn't at Skate Canada this season and her marks suffered for it, placing 7th in the SP when she omitted her 2Axel. I agree with you that she is a fighter though.

Whatever, I just wish everyone would stop being so negative in general to skaters in order to support their favorites that they do not even recognize when others do make progress.

Right on!

 

[Bennett]

I actually didn't even notice that Caro was "hated" by many here. I saw a lot of complaints about the recent Worlds results as well as other podium finishes of hers. But I didn't take them as personal attacks against her. Besides, I just like her skating a lot and that's been enough for me

 

[luvsasha]

Totally agree! It could be argued though that you are not being very objective by stating that people pick on Carolina and not Joannie because of their nationalities. I think it has more to do with some people not appreciating their styles more so than a nationality battle. I've seen plenty of people here rip into Rochette equally as much as they do Kostner. Go to the ladies threads here about this season's Skate Canada and TEB to see what I mean. Objectivity and rationality are definitely traits that skating forums need more of! :agree:

I totally agree with you RE: Joannie. There was tons and tons of negativity toward her when she won both SC and TEB. It made me so upset to read about it because i really like her and she did so well in those competitions. I really don't understand most of it especially those who say she has no artistry...she's a great skater with actual choreography and beautiful jumps. So she doesn't skate like a baby ballerina. Well, imo, there's something to be said for a nice, mature lady skater. That is what the discipline is called. but whatever, I won't let it get to me. I'll like her skating no matter what the haterz say.

RE: Carolina. I think some people are still upset about worlds because they don't think she deserved her score (I don't think it has anything to do with her being from Europe because seriously, who cares? Good for her for coming from a non-skating power and doing well. It's boring when the same countries win all the time). So it could be that they now think that anytime she gets a halfway decent score, she doesn't deserve it and/or Speedy is politiking for her. They become angry and their claws come out whenever she does well.
Funny, that sounds a lot like Joannie too.

 

[oleada]

Carolina was marked fairly. If Rochette had done a single triple in her SP, she would have been third. If Yukari hadn't bombed the long, she would have medaled. They didn't, but Carolina did, and she deserves her marks and the bronze.

 

[Bennett]

ITA about Joannie's artistry. Her programs are very well constructed choreo- and transitions-wise and performed wonderfully. She is a mature performer and would make a great pro skater.

I think that some ppl were just upset about her high marks at SC. But I didn't think that many of them hated her. Regarding her artistry, her wonderful programs this year would make more ppl notice it. Yet, it would still be a matter of preference.

 

[kikakiks]

How quickly people forget that Miki Ando is the one who won a World Championship in 2007 when Mao and Yu-Na both made mistakes that took them out of the gold.:[/QUOTE]


Oh mY! poor Miki! I did forget about her! My bad...She is indeed as - if not more in her best shape - more competitive than Joannie or Caro...it's just that contrary to the two I see her in a downward path (though I hope I'll be wrong)


So your solution is that two wrongs should make a right? How is picking on Joannie or Carolina or any skater for that matter going to do anyone any good? ALL the skaters should be respected for all of their hard work and sacrifices. By picking on Joannie, you are the pot calling the kettles black, aren't you?



Totally agree! It could be argued though that you are not being very objective by stating that people pick on Carolina and not Joannie because of their nationalities. I think it has more to do with some people not appreciating their styles more so than a nationality battle. I've seen plenty of people here rip into Rochette equally as much as they do Kostner. Go to the ladies threads here about this season's Skate Canada and TEB to see what I mean. Objectivity and rationality are definitely traits that skating forums need more of! :agree:

[/QUOTE]

You see? I was trying to say some non partial things and I ended up being partial myself! I was trying to make an example and I went into a bad direction apparently. What I was trying to say is that Maybe joannie has been criticized in the past more for her bad pressure handling than for "robbing" other skaters places. maybe I just took Carolina's cause too much to my heart...
I was reading also other forums (I don't know if I can mention them here, let's say ice-----k) and Caro's bronze medal was really contested. My reaction was:
"it's not like she was gifted anything, just that the others did worse than her...".

Anyway I'm glad to see that Npavel's post has received some positive feeedback.

Congrats to all skaters once again, and I hope they'll all work hard for the world championships. Overall none of them did their best.

 

[bethissoawesome]

Total combined scores (best PCS and TES achieved by each skater this season)...

1. Mao ASADA - 214.06
2. Yu-Na KIM - 213.77
3. Joannie ROCHETTE - 199.51
4. Carolina KOSTNER - 199.09
5. Miki ANDO - 191.09
6. Yukari NAKANO - 190.85

Thank you so much, Beth. I hope you continue adding on 'bests' throughout the season because that is how well the skater has done during that season. One could even divide by the number of entries to get what the skater averaged.

Personal Bests belong to the judges. They are meaningless when so many different contests take place.[/QUOTE]

I plan to I'd like to get up a mens and pairs.... ice dancing would be a bit too hard because it's difficult to compare the compulsory dances to one another. I'm deciding whether to update ladies now or wait until 4cc and euros to do a big update going into worlds.

I agree I'd like to see Yu-na do the 3 loop. But once again Mao is only safe when it comes to TES if she's doing at least a 3/3 combo. If Mao were to blow her 3 axel, and not do a 3/3 combo, she would be hurting quite a bit.. An underrotated triple axel with a fall and no 3/3 would be disasterous for Mao.

As I said earlier if Yu-na doesn't hit her 3 flip/3toe can add a 3toe elsewhere. Heck, there would be nothing stopping Yu-na from doing two double axel/3toes... IF she were to mess up her first 3flip... I woudnt' say everything is over for Yu-na if she doesn't land that jump. I'm sure they have a back up plan in motion.

But what you are saying for Yu-Na could apply to Mao as well... she could "try" to add a 3T somewhere else and still have her combo. The fact is, if you compare score wise... Mao's solo 3A is worth just as much as Yu-Na's 2A+3T, then they both have the 3F+3T, and comparably the 3F+2Lo+2Lo and 3Lz+2T+2Lo are very close in scoring. So Mao's 3A+2T gives Mao a whopping lead over Yu-Na in just regular jumps alone. It's not easy for a female skater to just "throw in" another 3T somewhere, because they have less time in their programs and, for the most part, they are pretty jam-packed. Not to mention, sometimes a skater doesn't know if a jump was UR-ed or not....then they could try to add that extra jump somewhere and wind up making it an invalid element. The fact of the matter is, if Yu-Na can add a 3T somewhere in her program if she misses it off the 3F, so could Mao. There is nothing stopping Mao from making that last 2A a 2A+3T or 3R (depending on what she does for her solo jump) except the time it would take out of choreography which is the exact same problem Yu-Na would have.

When push comes to shove, ladies just aren't as prone to adding an extra jump in somewhere if they miss it the first time as men are. You see ladies sticking to their program, even if they fall on their big combo and could squeeze an extra 2T or 2Lo in somewhere, far more often than you do men. It's just the way skating goes...

There was exactly a discussion like that before Worlds, that Kim could ditch the Loop, that she would win anyway, even if she only had 6 Triples. I think some people already said back then that it's too risky to only plan with 6 Triples. But most were like, she will win anyway. And what happened? She missed the second Lutz - was left with 5 Triples. Had she done a Loop instead of a 2A she would have at least won the silver, perhaps even the Gold, depending on the GOE - the scores were that close.

And I don't worry the least about Mao's 3-3s. The girl who managed to fix her Lutz in a way, that doesn't make it an obvious Flutz anymore, the girl who put the Salchow back in her programs - a jump she hasn't landed consistently since Junior days, the girl who managed to fix her sitspin and apparently stabilised her 3Axel enough to be able to do it in combination - and all that in just one off-season - that girl can also get a 3-3 back on ice, that will be ratified.

You know, lots of skaters talk a lot: I want to do this or that, I want to be consistent on this jump and learn this jump, I want to include 3 Quads, I want to do a 4Flip, I want to do a 3Axel. Mao Asada doesn't talk much anymore - Mao Asada just does it.

I agree with you. Yu-Na's program is far too risky right now. If per chance she blew her combo, she HAS to skate the rest of the program cleanly to be a contender to score equal to Mao (even if Mao has a miss on one of the 3A's). Yu-Na is also clearly having trouble putting in two 3Lz. That's why I keep my fingers crossed that she will go back and get her 3S and 3Lo, because she can't afford to be popping a 3Lz in her program right now while having a jump in it that is already hit-or-miss. If she missed her opening 3F-3T and skated the rest of the program the way she has been, she would be in a lot of trouble.... not even just in comparison to Mao, but by next season, probably several other skaters as well. One year more practice for, say... Rachael Flatt (imho), will put a lot of pressure on Yu-Na to be clean, because the TES will be there and in reality, the PCS point difference between many of the top skaters is just not enough to make a big enough of a difference.

As for Mao, I'm very proud that she went back and tried fixing jumps, etc. I remember a lot of talk about how Mao couldn't do a 3T but could do a 3A back when she first entered the senior circuit. Now, she has a lovely 3T. It takes a lot of determination to go back and say "Okay, I will learn this jump and learn it well" when it is the easiest of the jumps you could use and not worth many points. Yu-Na really needs the same determination for her 3S and 3Lo, because at the end of the day, it just isn't worth it risking it all on one jump or jump combination. Skaters sometimes fall on their best jumps, that's just the way the ice is. It's good to have a program that is still strong even if you miss your main point-getter combo or jump; never rely too much on one element no matter how consistent it seems! (I said this before, but I think this probably was part of the idea with Mao and the two 3A's. Everyone knows the jump is consistent more than half the time, so putting it the program twice almost guarantees having it ratified once. And when attempting an 8 triple program vs. everyone else's 7 triple program, she is risking nothing by attempting the 3A twice.)

 

[eleonora.d]

So it could be that they now think that anytime she gets a halfway decent score, she doesn't deserve it and/or Speedy is politiking for her. They become angry and their claws come out whenever she does well.
Funny, that sounds a lot like Joannie too.

If Speedy was politiking, he should have done something for Faiella Scali, but he didn't and that's clear just look at the gp final free dance they were clearly robbed

 

[dgel]

Not if it keeps happening to her. Which it probably will.

She is performing her 3-3's exactly as she always has and then suddenly this year only 1 attempt out of 5 has been ratified. She did a solid Quad and got nothing for it either. That's not good for her or for the sport.

It's excellent for the sport- it's not a quad if the last rotation is completed in the ice- it's a triple and a spin . Miki's a fine skater and is capable of completing the rotations on most of her jumps - she's got to get out of what seems to be a bad habit of finishing the rotation on the ice rather than risking a fall.

 

[bekalc]

Yu-Na really needs the same determination for her 3S and 3Lo, because at the end of the day, it just isn't worth it risking it all on one jump or jump combination.

Kim's 3flip/3toe isn't the only thing that's important to her program.. Her double axel/3toe is equally as important.... It's those two combinations added together which make her quite formidable because it allows her to put in 2 double axels and 7 triples or 3 double axels and 6 triples..

If she doesn't land her 3flip/3toe she can tack on a triple toe elsewhere, which I assume she's practiced..In fact, in one competition as a Junior, Yu-na missed her 3flip/3toe and promptely did a 3 lutz/3toe moments later. Reports are that she consistently practices that combination. We saw that when she messed up her 3 lutz in the long in China, that she did a 3lutz/2toe at the end of her program. Kim's capable enough of thinking on her feet.

And/or she can replace one of her double axels with a harder triple...There are tons of things Yu-na can do if the 3flip/3toe or the double axel/3toe doesn't go as well as she planned.

As for her 3 salchow, Kim has not fallen on that jump in a long time. I suspect the issue here (and she said it) was stamina and not some inability to land a 3 salchow.. Kim said she was sick and that it hurt her stamina.

She may want to practice her lutzs though.

And frankly until Rachael consistently lands 2 3/3's (or a 3/3 and a double axel/3toe) and a 3/3 in the short (which she hasn't done this year) Kim has nothing to worry about. Rachael also has a lot of work to do before she ever gets PCS like Kims.

And frankly until Asada actually starts going for 3/3's in her long again, she herself is heavily relying on the 3 axels. And Kim's big combinations are still more consistent than Asada's 3 axels.

And seriously, there's nothing wrong strategy wise with going with a jumping lay out that you know you can realistically do. Who knows if Asada can realistically do 2 3 axels and 2 3/3's. She never gotten full credit for two clean 3/3s in the past. Not even credit for a clean 3/3 and a clean double axel/3toe in the past.

Frankly short of getting a 3 axel/quad, there's nothing Kim can do about Asada's potential superiority.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's excellent for the sport- it's not a quad if the last rotation is completed in the ice- it's a triple and a spin

Uhhh....that's not even close to what happened. And such a thing would never be called as a Quad in the first place. It would be called as a Triple with a double 3-turn on the landing.

Miki's Quad this competition was a good one.

 

[icedancexpert]

Joannie had a rough competition. However, I believe she can bounce back at Canadian Nationals. She and Yukari (in my opinion) were the most artistic of the 6 ladies. (I absolutely love Yukari's long program). It's a shame they did not skate better.