Ladies LP

[Kwanford Wife]

passion is the new black!

 

[TripletA]

Kwan fans have nothing on Lipinski fans.lol

I was a huge gymnastics fan a few years back and let me tell you the Liukin fans take the cake when it comes to blind fandom.

 

[PROKOFIEV]

Yu-na does do two kinds of combos a double axel/3toe is different from a 3flip/3toe you know.. And once again doing a 3toe in combination shows she can do a 3toe. Kim probably has the best 3toe technique in the world.

I definitely agree with you that Yu-na has the best technique for 3toe combination. When I used to skate, I was taught that there were 2 different kind of combination. One is toe combo-that is you add any kind of toe jump (single, double or tirple) to
the first jump
the second kind is loop combo- you add loop jump after the first jump
I was told to learn both kind of combos,and it was much harder to do loop combo because I had to control my first jump landing more than toe combo in general.

 

[bekalc]

the second kind is loop combo- you add loop jump after the first jump
I was told to learn both kind of combos,and it was much harder to do loop combo because I had to control my first jump landing more than toe combo in general.

Yes it's harder to do the loop, but it shouldn't be a requirement to do a 3/3loop combination. Skaters who do that get extra base value.

Kim does do a 3lutz/double toe/double loop.

 

[Dipyramidal]

In a perfect world, yes, millions of people can change their face to music. In a real world, not so many. If it's that easy, why would some get praised with it and some won't?
Of course artistry is not all about facial expression. There are glances, finger movement, arm movemet, every subtle bodiy movements...
However, facial expression sure is very important and basic in not just figure skating but in EVERY kinds of performances-all kind of dances, play, mime, and what not. Have you ever seen any 'artistic' performer with stone face?? I can't think of any ballerina who danced with worried, nervous, frown looks... unless the music demands it. Can you?

One more thing. Why do you think performers wear heavy makeup? Isn't it to emphasize their facial expression? 'Stupid faces' doesn't really explain it I guess.
Don't insult them, please.

I am not insulting people on wearing make-up. I never even said a single thing about that on my post.

In Yu-Na's case, her expression does absolutely nothing for me. Yes she is good with her face, but the ability and the talent to make faces doesn't mean that it is true artisty of any depth beneath it. I don't see her expressions as a natural thing of some emotional coming out. Just a certain face nothing else. A forced face or a distracting face is nothing else then no expression at all.
Although, I am being quite biased here, this applies to many skaters as well as Miki ando and sarah meir.

Yes I can imagine a ballerina dancing sadly w/o the music because maybe she is having a bad day!
http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/images/four_continents/2009 4c Kim SP 0782.jpg

Yes. This is SO kim.



------------------------------------
I agree that kim has a good toe. I also believe that kim should work on triple loop.
It seems that the only skaters that can do triple loop at the end is mao asada and miki ando. The loop is delicate jump and therefore when under pressure you can easily underrotate it.

 

[gourry]

Looks like I post reply to you quite often.

I am not insulting people on wearing make-up. I never even said a single thing about that on my post.

When I said 'don't insult them, please', it was not about the people who put on make-up. It was about the people who try to use facial expressions which is very basic for performers. Since you said this.

millions of people can change they're face to a music -___-. Artistry is not stupid faces.

Yes I can imagine a ballerina dancing sadly w/o the music because maybe she is having a bad day!

Isn't it totally human but simply unprofessional...? You know, something like 'smile though your heart is aching smile even though its breaking~'

 

[Mathman]

...this applies to many skaters as well as Miki Ando...

Miki Ando's deadpan, femme fatale, "if-ONLY-you were-man-enough-to-look-at-ME" face is perfect. (As was Michelle's "The Feeling Begins" face.)

 

[Kinga]

In Yu-Na's case, her expression does absolutely nothing for me. Yes she is good with her face, but the ability and the talent to make faces doesn't mean that it is true artisty of any depth beneath it. I don't see her expressions as a natural thing of some emotional coming out. Just a certain face nothing else.

I agree with you about Yu-Na expression. Although she deserved her title and was clearly the best, I still cannot feel her. For me she is not genuine in her expression, something feels artificial and not complete. I would call her programs solid performances, but that's all. I don't have any of her programs on my youtube favorite list, and I am really trying hard to feel her programs (the only one I liked was tango Roxanne). I think Yuna's Scheherazade was not even close to Michelle's. But congratulations! Her jumps were to die for, especially combos!

I loved Miki, both in LP and SP. I think I would give her silver, Joannie bronze, but that is a close call, because I love Joannie too! Miki had a very energetic skate. Her posture was not spot on, but somehow it did not bother me this time, because it conveyed this energy very well. It was mine favourite LP of the night, strangely enough, because I am not her fan. But what I find interesting about Miki, is that her style is very difficult to define. It is neither atheltic, nor lyrical. Maybe something in between. Sometimes it does not play her any favours, but this time it did.

Asada's LP is great, but if she is clean. If there are mistakes or she does not hit two 3A or a 3-3, it looses impact to me. And so it happened in LA. A pity, because it was my favourite LP for the season. VEry powerfull, and I LOVE Masqurade waltz! It would prompt me to dance any time, even if someone woke me up at 3 am.

 

[hikki]

Back from LA!

I was there for Ladies FP (missed Miki in SP due to damn traffic!!). Was a great night of skating.

My :thumbsup: :Miki and Yu-na. Disappointed live: Fumie and Mao.

Yu-na
She had the presense of a champion even from the 6-minute warm-up. Her high jumps with speed in and out, ability to "hit" (not every, but the important) rythm and making effective crescendo stood out. Oh her tears! Congrats!

That said, I wish this win hadn't relied so much on subjective components, the GOE and PCS. +3 GOE for her 2axel? Did her straighline step sequence deserve +2 pretty much across the board? As for PCS, yes the scores were inflated for pretty much everyone, but when comparing the the top 4 skaters' PCS to those at 4CC, Yu-na's jumped much more than the other 3 skaters. Her SP, for instance, IMO, was better at 4CC but the scores say otherwise. I do think her 10+ points lead affected the mental state of the competitors, Yu-na included, in the LP and should not have happened.

Miki
For those saying she's just a jumping bean, may I point out that:

1. Her speed was amazing THROUGHOUT
2. She appeared to be skating on deep edges, visible in the spiral and the step sequence
3. Her step sequence, along with Yu-na's, really hit the music with great attack
4. She emoted her heart out, visible on her face and with arm movements
5. Not many skaters could've skated this story-less piece of music with the way she did, creating her own drama.

I agree with Blades of Passion 100% on the double downgrading penality issue and think she should've been 2nd in SP, making her the silvermedalist.

The important thing is that Miki herself doesn't seem to be arsed about it and she's so happy with her come back!

Picture of Miki & Rochette talking after the medal ceremony (Link welcome):
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=0qmhmznlk1t&thumb=5

Mao
My heart went out for her... I screamed so much after her 2nd 3axel. Sentimentalism aside, I do think her speed, attack, telegraphing, use of music, etc. was not as good as the top 3 so I agree with her placement. It's a shame as her line is the most beautiful. I know Tarasova is trying to pull off a Kulik, but I'm worried.

On a different note, I got an autograph from Even Lysacek! Great to see Kristi, Debbi and Tiffany! People taking flash photography suck!

 

[Tonichelle]

yes flash photogs are on my not so cool list...

you DON'T NEED FLASH... it's well lit and you're not close enough to the subject for it to work ANYWAY... and if you don't know your camera well enough to turn it off then don't bring it lol you should know the equipment before you bring it. /rant

 

[R.D.]

Toni is right. I have tried similar shots in the past (not at performance shows though!) and it just doesn't work. I have no idea why the arena staff don't point that out as a deterrent to taking flash photos at the shows. You need High ISO coupled with a Fast Lens and quick Shutter Speed to freeze the action. AFAIK, only professional SLRs have that capability.

 

[Tinymavy15]

yes flash photogs are on my not so cool list...

you DON'T NEED FLASH... it's well lit and you're not close enough to the subject for it to work ANYWAY... and if you don't know your camera well enough to turn it off then don't bring it lol you should know the equipment before you bring it. /rant

no, you don't need it, but most digital cameras do it automatically when they sense that you are not in sunlight.

 

[Tonichelle]

you can turn that feature off, it's not that hard to do.

 

[jsteam4501s]

I guess I'm pretty late with this question, and I'm asking for a reply from anyone who knows the answer and is interested enough in setting this old guy (67) straight to answer it:

Tom Hammond (NBC telecast) made much of declaring as a milestone that Yu-Na was the first woman in the "history" of the "new" scoring system to break 200 points and that her total of 207.71 was the new world record for a total score. I accepted that at the moment because I really don't make a point of keeping total scores in my "memory bank".

Then today, I went into my skating DVD archives and watched the Ladies LP from 2006 Worlds - Kimmie finished with 218.33, Suguri was 2nd with 209.74, and Sasha 3rd with 208.88!

Uh - Huhhhh?

So, someone here is going to tell me that 2006 Worlds was skated under an "old" new scoring system and there has been a "new" new scoring system in place since '06?

And because of a few modifications in the "old" new scoring system to create the "new" new scoring system, Yu-Na Kim is officially considered to be the world record holder and the first over 200 points under the - uhh - "new" scoring system?

And so all the scores achieved under the "old" new scoring system apparently are "unofficial" and therefore don't count?

 

[museksk8r]

I guess I'm pretty late with this question, and I'm asking for a reply from anyone who knows the answer and is interested enough in setting this old guy (67) straight to answer it:

Tom Hammond (NBC telecast) made much of declaring as a milestone that Yu-Na was the first woman in the "history" of the "new" scoring system to break 200 points and that her total of 207.71 was the new world record for a total score. I accepted that at the moment because I really don't make a point of keeping total scores in my "memory bank".

Then today, I went into my skating DVD archives and watched the Ladies LP from 2006 Worlds - Kimmie finished with 218.33, Suguri was 2nd with 209.74, and Sasha 3rd with 208.88!

Uh - Huhhhh?

So, someone here is going to tell me that 2006 Worlds was skated under an "old" new scoring system and there has been a "new" new scoring system in place since '06?

And because of a few modifications in the "old" new scoring system to create the "new" new scoring system, Yu-Na Kim is officially considered to be the world record holder and the first over 200 points under the - uhh - "new" scoring system?

And so all the scores achieved under the "old" new scoring system apparently are "unofficial" and therefore don't count?

In 2006 when Meissner won her World title, the qualifying rounds were still in place, so with 3 phases (QR, SP, and LP) instead of the 2 (SP and LP) that are in place now, the scores were higher back then under COP. The Total Segment Score from the qualifying rounds were factorized by 0.25. The QRs were abolished from the World Championships in the 2007 season. It's no surprise to me that NBC failed to acknowledge this fact during their broadcast.

The reality is that the medalists from the 2006 Worlds finished with a total score higher than Yu-Na's at the 2009 Worlds, thanks to the qualifying round.
1 Kimmie MEISSNER USA 218.33 2 5 1
2 Fumie SUGURI JPN 209.74 1 2 2
3 Sasha COHEN USA 208.88 3 1 4

Also, from the 2005 Worlds, the gold and silver medalists finished with a total score higher than Yu-Na's, also thanks to the qualifying round.
1 Irina SLUTSKAYA RUS 222.71 1 1 1
2 Sasha COHEN USA 214.39 1 2 2

Another fact to consider is that the judging was not as strict when COP was first initiated into figure skating as it became during the 2007-2008 season. That's the season when the ISU really started cracking down on wrong edge entries to jumps and downgrading for under-rotated jumps.

 

[jsteam4501s]

Thank you, museksk8r.

Not only had I forgotten about the QR being factored in to the scores in the earlier years, I didn't even know the QR had been dropped since then.

My fault for not paying attention to technical scoring changes in recent years. Thanks again.

 

[Blade Runner]

Wow, I think this is the most arrogant statement of the year.
I think you can simplify all your posts down to four words: "Yuna Kim is perfect", if you feel the need to post. That would save both yourself and the readers a lot of time.
I try really hard to like Yuna, but her many obsessed fans just turn me off completely the next second. I don't think figure skating has witnessed such extreme fanaticism ever. Not even from the Kwan fans.

I am trying to comprehend what you mean by "I try hard to like Yuna but her many obsessed fans just turn me off completely the next second". Are you not judging the skater and her abilities on the ice because of her fanatical fans ? The fans are not the ones doing the beautiful 3F3T, she is. It seems unnecessary and sophomoric to confuse the two, as the messenger and the message are two different things. Your liking of a skater seems to depend not on the pure talents on ice but the inverse degree of fanaticism on the part of her fans.

Lets face it, Kwan had her legendary fanbase because of her talent and her connection to them. It is no different for Yuna or anyone else of skating significance. I see that you are a fan of Matt Savoie(I as well), but would you not like him if similar over-enthusiastic fans expressed their love for him and his skating ?

In general, why are some of us so critical of these uber enthusiastic fans, when they are important part and parcel of the growth of the figure skating sport(in the very least, making things interesting off ice), as its fanaticism is no different than that of football, soccer, baseball(just ask any Yankees-Red Sox fans).

 

[shine]

Lets face it, Kwan had her legendary fanbase because of her talent and her connection to them. It is no different for Yuna or anyone else of skating significance. I see that you are a fan of Matt Savoie(I as well), but would you not like him if similar over-enthusiastic fans expressed their love for him and his skating ?

Believe me, I am more than aware of the rabid Kwan fans. However, I have NEVER read a statement from even the most crazed Kwan fan that's even remotely close to the effect of "There is nothing wrong with Yuna Kim; Yuna Kim is perfect, it's the JUDGES that need to reconsider". I've seen fans bicker at opposing opinions, but never have I seen them blatantly call the JUDGES blind for judging the technique a certain way.
There have always been debates over how the presentation or PCS is marked for a certain performance, because it is indeed much more subjective. But when it comes to a purely technical element like the flip, it's much less debatable. To me the statement above literally sounds like "How DARE you damn technical caller called the wrong edge take-off on her perfect flip, you need to piss off. Yuna and all of us know better." I mean, does it occur to them that the flip may be called this way FOR A REASON? The callers have known skating all their life, and so have many, many skating fans who notice the outside edge take-off on Kim's flip. For a fan to state something like that simply shows the utmost ignorance and disrespect IMO.
My point is, you have seen Sasha fans defend Sasha when Kwan fans claim that Michelle has better artistry or spiral, and vice versa, but you don't see them defend to death Sasha's lutz being called a flutz.

And hey, my negative feelings may be projected wrongly, but that is how *I* feel nonetheless. You can't tell someone to FEEL a certain way or whatnot. And I have no obligation to like ANY skater if I don't. Since I already am indifferent toward Kim, seeing the way some of her fans behave naturally doesn't help at all. And need you not worry about Savoie's over-enthusiastic fans. Because they are simply non-existent; at least much less to this extreme degree.

 

[steyn]

Believe me, I am more than aware of the rabid Kwan fans. However, I have NEVER read a statement from even the most crazed Kwan fan that's even remotely close to the effect of "There is nothing wrong with Yuna Kim; Yuna Kim is perfect, it's the JUDGES that need to reconsider". I've seen fans bicker at opposing opinions, but never have I seen them blatantly call the JUDGES blind for judging the technique a certain way.
There have always been debates over how the presentation or PCS is marked for a certain performance, because it is indeed much more subjective. But when it comes to a purely technical element like the flip, it's much less debatable. To me the statement above literally sounds like "How DARE you damn technical caller called the wrong edge take-off on her perfect flip, you need to piss off. Yuna and all of us know better." I mean, does it occur to them that the flip may be called this way FOR A REASON? The callers have known skating all their life, and so have many, many skating fans who notice the outside edge take-off on Kim's flip. For a fan to state something like that simply shows the utmost ignorance and disrespect IMO.
My point is, you have seen Sasha fans defend Sasha when Kwan fans claim that Michelle has better artistry or spiral, and vice versa, but you don't see them defend to death Sasha's lutz being called a flutz.

And hey, my negative feelings may be projected wrongly, but that is how *I* feel nonetheless. You can't tell someone to FEEL a certain way or whatnot. And I have no obligation to like ANY skater if I don't. Since I already am indifferent toward Kim, seeing the way some of her fans behave naturally doesn't help at all. And need you not worry about Savoie's over-enthusiastic fans. Because they are simply non-existent; at least much less to this extreme degree.

It is quite interesting that your thought on Yu-Na's uber fans are almost opposite to mine. If they are talking about PCS or other subjective issues, they would not be like what they are. Maybe like Kwan fans according to your standard. Grading subjective stuffs need the authority of experts.

As you clearly wrote, however, measuring the angle of edge does not need any special knowledge or experience because it is a mathematical thing. So, "if" somebody believes that he/she measured it accurately, then he/she has all the reason to claim that his/her result is correct. This is like science or mathematics where 1+1 cannot be 3 no matter how a great mathematician claims so. I think that's why Yu-Na's uber fan say Yu-Na's flip is perfect. Don't get me worng. I am not saying that they are correct. What I am saying is they have their own reason why they are so sure.

Well, you may argue that Yu-Na's flip is obviously outside edge and they are simply lying. No, I don't think they are lying. I think they simply say what they see. Or at least it is not obvious at all. Even at golden, many people say that it is inside or not obvious.

Personally I feel technical panels sometimes fail to be consistent. I know that they have known skating all their lives but it does not mean that they are always consistent. I think the number of technical panels should be increased from 3 to at least 5 or 7. They have too much power.

 

[R.D.]

Shine brought up a VERY GOOD POINT with the Yu Na crazies (or bots, or whatever you want to call them) just being outright annoying and spoiling everything. But let's not forget things- the worst of the Kwaniacs and the CohenHeads were pretty bad, too.

But the main reason the YuNa people annoy me even more than the above two is they just don't know when to stop. They think Yuna should always be winning and should get favored calls from the panel, and if they don't it's the judges' fault. And they do this in EVERY competition thread. Give me an effing break, Please.

I don't even care about the politics, and people bringing it up time and time again annoys me, too. All this commotion is further fueling the fire that is me hoping Yuna does not win next year. It might anger the Skate Gods, too, so watch out. They have a way of getting even.

The Asada fanatics aren't that much better so don't you get excited.