Ladies LP

[*Sniper*]

You see, I don't have to substantiate my claim because I said,
"... could not have looked around...", which means it's not factual.
It's what's called the "subjunctive mood".
Had I said, "... did not look around...", then I would have to present you with all my raw data and survey results, etc.

Hey, sniper, this is a friendly forum and I didn't mean to offend you and sorry if I did. Nobody thinks that you were really expecting Yu-na to skate in her birthday suit.

It was just a rhetorical question because I couldn't imagine anybody saying, "so that's it?" after seeing Yu-na skate, or after anybody's performance for that matter.

And please watch Yu-na's LP when she performs in Lake Placid, it's a good program. And Sasha and Fumie and Rachel, and the rest of the bunch. They will all be skating their hearts out to please figure skating fans like yourself.

:thumbsup:
Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Daniel5555]

kyla2
Thank you for the response.
I can't agree with everything, but I won't go into discussion either.

I agree that the "art" part declined since the introduction of the new system, but well... Now it's more sport than art.

 

[bubbleyum]

so.... just wanted to say one thing.

i know we are all figure skating fans here on this board, some longer than others (largely due to the advantage of age perhaps )
seems to be a lot of despair over the state of figure skating, especially how the new scoring system is controlling what we get to see presented to us on the ice.

but let's also remember that these athletes are bigger ice skating fans than us keyboard warriors here. it's not like they don't love ice skating as much as we do, and don't care a whit about their programs or quality of skating.

they fell in love with it since they were little girls/boys and put in countless hours of practice, not to mention time, money, and thought in planning their programs etc etc. they are not greedy little trolls who don't care anything about skating and just want to manipulate the scoring system for their own personal gain. (whatever that might be??) same goes for the coaches, many of whom were famous elite skaters themselves... right?

 

[Blades of Passion]

What am I watching? I'm watching Sasha's spiral leave Michelle's in the dust. Michelle may have been a very strong, passionate skater (with almost no weaknesses), but she wasn't quite the best at any individual component. As a YuNa fan, I should be the last person to criticize Michelle's spiral, but alas, it's going to be criticized vis a vis Sasha's better positioning, higher flexibility, and more pointed foot (although Michelle does have good blade control and speed.)

Ah, but she was. Michelle's interpretation of music was, and still is, the best of any modern female skater (Lu Chen aside, although Lu Chen's body of work is smaller in quantity).

And, yes, Sasha had more flexibility and could achieve more difficult positions. However, Kwan had deeper edges and an absolutely flawless change-of-edge in her Spiral. Both of these woman had qualities in their Spirals that are the best ever.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

:yes:SO. MUCH. FUN.:yes:

I imagine if YuNa or Mao had been American, their popularity would have exploded in the U.S. and the resultant waves would have hit the international scene. It's a product of American culture, its power and exportability. I don't think it was Michelle Kwan was a star only because it was Michelle Kwan; if she were, say, a national Chinese, figure skating in the U.S. would have been magical, thriving, and swooning over her?? Oh, please. Highly doubt it.

I can still watch bits of Michelle performances and they don't really impress me. By all means, she is an extraordinary performer and had a long, consistent career, but her spirals were not like Sasha's, her athletic power was not like Irina's, her jumps were not as amazing as either YuNa or Mao's. And I am likewise unimpressed with a certain Sarah Hughes who outperformed Michelle at the last Olympics she went to. Nay, I was quite content to follow men's figure skating when Michelle was at her peak. Imagine Yagudin or Plushenko as Americans, and tell me they would not have blown up the American figure skating scene either.

Two quick points on this portion of our floor show...

1. Spirals are about edge control more than extention and Sasha's spirals while very pretty and awe inspiring - never hit the edge of Michelle or Irina. And I believe even Tiny would agree with that point. As for jumps - not so sure about "amazing" since "amazing" is so subjective... and MK, Irinia and Sasha all had full sets of triples.

2. Men skaters would never get the love of Ladies skaters in the US. In the US, figure skating, like gymnastics, falls into the "America's Sweetheart" marketing catergory aka Pretty girls doing amazing things. You're talking business with that comment, NOT skating. That whole pesky American culture thing that seems to bug you so much...

Prettykeys, you poor thing.

Michelle had some of the best programs ever and the strongest skating skills of ANY modern female skater.

Criticizing her Spiral really makes me question what you are watching. Her blade control on that move is superior to every other woman in the history of skating.

Blades - you're simply awesome and I love you because I love when smart people explain smart things.

That is why I decided not to respond .

Demarinis - you are very mature and I hope to follow your example one day (hopefully BEFORE I'm banned...and with this level of drama so early in the season, its looking doubtful)

kyla2
Thank you for the response.
I can't agree with everything, but I won't go into discussion either.

I agree that the "art" part declined since the introduction of the new system, but well... Now it's more sport than art.

What was it before? Ice Capades? As for the "now its more sport" specificially - you can really tell the difference because the skating is so technically superior than before... from the full sets of jumps to the clean execution to the excellent technique of the top contenders to the overall quality of skating...

Listen, I done fighting the CoP system is detrimental to skating argument - but to say that what we're watching is more like a REAL sport is crazy. Why is it so hard to admit that the quality of skating is suffering because the emphasis has moved away from to perfection to rack 'em up? Gymnastics went through a major shift in technical requirements and the athletes rose to the challenge. Why not skating?

What am I watching? I'm watching Sasha's spiral leave Michelle's in the dust. Michelle may have been a very strong, passionate skater (with almost no weaknesses), but she wasn't quite the best at any individual component. As a YuNa fan, I should be the last person to criticize Michelle's spiral, but alas, it's going to be criticized vis a vis Sasha's better positioning, higher flexibility, and more pointed foot (although Michelle does have good blade control and speed.)

No one's going to call me blind on this one:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Sasha_Cohen_2009_SOI_Halifax_Spiral.jpg

http://content2.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/quiz22/107777/107777_res1.jpg

One is very good; the other is outstanding.

I suppose if Michelle had just the best programs ever, excuse my deprived childhood and/or brain damage. I've been able to do just about everything except realize that. :agree:

You are right: Sasha's spiral was very good - she has excellent posture and pointed toes. Beautiful! Michelle's on the other hand - OMG!. Control, speed, inside edge to outside edge on one takeoff. Truly the iconic move of skating. OUTSTANDING!

And don't worry... if the largest proof we have of your deprived childhood and resultant brain damage is the misconception that Michelle Kwan isn't the GREATEST. OF. ALL. TIME. no worries... we here at GS are more than happy to assist you in correcting that problem.

Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HldRjxM0VKU

Oh and by the way ~ Welcome to Golden Skate. Post Long. Post Often. And don't pick fights. (Toni doesn't like it)

 

[HCOSurfer]

whole post

 

[prettykeys]

And don't worry... if the largest proof we have of your deprived childhood and resultant brain damage is the misconception that Michelle Kwan isn't the GREATEST. OF. ALL. TIME. no worries... we here at GS are more than happy to assist you in correcting that problem.

Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HldRjxM0VKU

Oh and by the way ~ Welcome to Golden Skate. Post Long. Post Often. And don't pick fights. (Toni doesn't like it)

:yes: I already like it here. Agreements, disagreements, drama...it's irresistible.

I probably shouldn't have said what I said, because my "favourite skater" as the one who has already made the biggest impression on me won't change, and my favourite program by her wasn't the one that was her most technically difficult or even artistically complex. It's the sentimental attachment to her Tango de Roxanne. So if Michelle had that effect on the most number of spectators (as well as inspiring a whole generation to follow after her, including mah girl), then I'm not going to (nor do I ever) obsess over her technicalities. There's no denying Michelle was probably the most complete package, and I cannot fully explain why I never got hooked in.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

:yes: I already like it here. Agreements, disagreements, drama...it's irresistible.

I probably shouldn't have said what I said, because my "favourite skater" as the one who has already made the biggest impression on me won't change, and my favourite program by her wasn't the one that was her most technically difficult or even artistically complex. It's the sentimental attachment to her Tango de Roxanne. So if Michelle had that effect on the most number of spectators (as well as inspiring a whole generation to follow after her, including mah girl), then I'm not going to (nor do I ever) obsess over her technicalities. There's no denying Michelle was probably the most complete package, and I cannot fully explain why I never got hooked in.

For the same reason I am from Detroit, my husband is a University of Michigan grad and I STILL root for the Ohio State University. Because I can. No worries. Everyone here as their favorites and we are passionate about skating overall - GS is a great board and we tend to play nice here vs. other boards. But its an Olympic Year and that brings the crazy.

But seriously - your childhood was deprived if you don't see the awesomness that is La Kwan... C'mon over to the dark side... try it. you'll like it.

 

[Tonichelle]

actually Toni doesn't like teh suggestion that Golden Skate is MKF Jr.

 

[R.D.]

actually Toni doesn't like [the] suggestion that Golden Skate is MKF Jr.

:chorus:

How'd a thread about the TEB LP become one about Kwan anyway?

Suppose I need not ask though...

 

[silverlining]

Michelle had some of the best programs ever and the strongest skating skills of ANY modern female skater.

Michelle Kwan isn't the GREATEST. OF. ALL. TIME.

Oh, here you are. The very ones I was referring to earlier:

some of you are still going, "Oh Michelle, we miss you Michelle... There's not going to be another skater like you, Michelle~~."

Why are you talking about a retired skater in a forum for a recently finished competition?

I really feel sorry for Michelle for having uncivilized fans like you guys who don't hesitate to call others "visually impaired", "with deprived childhood" and "having brain damage".

How low can you get?
And I thought Yu-na's and Mao's fans were bad. Phew.

 

[prettykeys]

Actually silverlining, I called myself "possibly deprived and brain-damaged", nothing's been taken personally on the return.

 

[Tonichelle]

you have to take Kwanford Wife at face value... some of us love the sport and are serious about it, but we like to take it 'to the extreme' and have a good laugh.

it's okay, it's all chill.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

How'd a thread about the TEB LP become one about Kwan anyway?

Suppose I need not ask though...

She came up and its fun to poke the bears...

Oh, here you are. The very ones I was referring to earlier:



Why are you talking about a retired skater in a forum for a recently finished competition?

I really feel sorry for Michelle for having uncivilized fans like you guys who don't hesitate to call others "visually impaired", "with deprived childhood" and "having brain damage".

How low can you get?
And I thought Yu-na's and Mao's fans were bad. Phew.

Please refrain from changing my responses. Disagree all you want but its rude to change others opinions.

you have to take Kwanford Wife at face value... some of us love the sport and are serious about it, but we like to take it 'to the extreme' and have a good laugh.

it's okay, it's all chill.

Exactly! I love skating and I learn a lot here in possibly the last bastion of quality figure skating on-line discussion. But I'm also here for the fun & giggles. My real life is stressful enough and I'm passionate about a sport that my family & friends think of at best every four years or at worse a joke.

 

[Mathman]

...some of you are still going, "Oh Michelle, we miss you Michelle... There's not going to be another skater like you, Michelle~~."

You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

 

[R.D.]

You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

It's not bad, per se, but it does get repetitive. :indiff:

 

[demarinis5]

KW I see that you figured out how to multi quote. Should I warn the Michelle detractors.

 

[Tonichelle]

KW I see that you figured out how to multi quote. Should I warn the Michelle detractors.

she knew she was skating on thin ice (over used pun! ) with me with this whole MK lovefest so she didn't want to further poke the bear!

 

[Daniel5555]

Kwanford Wife

What was it before? Ice Capades? As for the "now its more sport" specificially - you can really tell the difference because the skating is so technically superior than before... from the full sets of jumps to the clean execution to the excellent technique of the top contenders to the overall quality of skating...

There are a lot of people who think that IT IS technically superior. Actually I was the one who asked about this, because when I started to watch it I remembered "past" performances, so I really was in trouble about this.
Overall quality of skating? I don't think that girls of this years were born with less talent than girls before. Maybe it's really harder now...

Listen, I done fighting the CoP system is detrimental to skating argument - but to say that what we're watching is more like a REAL sport is crazy. Why is it so hard to admit that the quality of skating is suffering because the emphasis has moved away from to perfection to rack 'em up? Gymnastics went through a major shift in technical requirements and the athletes rose to the challenge. Why not skating?

What gymnastics?
If you mean rhythmic gymnastics, that is a sport that has way more troubles than figure skating. If you are talking about artistic gymnastics, I don't know anything about it.

But anyway, let's get to our point.
That is Michelle Kwan from 2002 at QR Worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-RaCEW9xWM (and I choose this performance only because of video quality, the performance with higher marks looks like trash).
And that's... Yuna Kim from 2009 Worlds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTJQdaT6NME
I'm not trying to say that Yuna's version is better, for the God's sake, I assume it's inferior in any case in that our conversation. But is it really that much inferior that the quality is "suffering"? If you enjoyed first program, why can't you enjoy the second? Are they so different?

Now OK, I'm bringing Yuna here only because you're talking about Kwan who is legendary skater and so on. So naturally I have to select, possibly, the best lady skater right now.

Well, overall... I find all this talk about declining quality and so on just too subjective and basically I think that people just don't want to open their minds to new skaters and new programs that have different style, but are not really that inferior in any case.

 

[spark67]

I'm very disappointed by Yu-na's program this year. Her score was inflated! I know that her 3Lz combo is beautiful, but her other elements are just plain mediocre. Look at her layback. Her toe was pointed down, there was no attitude position, and it's slow. There is nothing unique about her spins. Her spiral sequence is nothing spectacular. I don't see any flexibility in her positions that would deserve any plus GOEs. Also, I've noticed that she always puts the same jumps in her program.

Really? Hmm...do you think perchance you could be a "leetle" biased in your views?

Yu-na is a wonderful skater, but I REALLY don't think that she deserves all the hype that she is getting at all. A beautiful flip and lutz is not everything in skating. All of her elements need improvement.

So you're really going to make the argument that the only reason why Yuna received her scores were STRICTLY due to the beautiful flip and lutz jumps? Hmm...were you WATCHING the LP? Yuna OMITTED the flip. Her triple combination was the lutz and LOOP. Why bother saying you think Yuna is a "wonderful" skater if you only admire her triple lutz/3 loop combo? Your argument lacks reason.

I feel that her music and dress this year are very plain and flat.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the judges give points for ugly outfits, do you? I mean, I could also make the same arguments about the outfits of some of the skaters, but that would be just juvenile, don't you think?

She acts very arrogant outside of the rink, and I know that many will disagree, but this is my true and honest opinion.

How exactly do you know this? Do you know her personally? Has she dissed you in a personal way? Or is this just your "observation" after watching her competition and when she's at the Kiss-and-Cry area? This is a little childish. You ARE aware of that, right? Just because this is your "true and honest opinion" doesn't make it RIGHT.

Why does everyone always bring the Japanese media into this? That has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make...

Please enlighten us with your great logic and expound on the point that you were trying to make because obviously missed out on it. If you don't like Yuna's skating, then that's a totally valid and acceptable opinion. But don't stoop to these childish antics. It just makes you look mean-hearted.