Ladies LP

[quikrush]

I don't really understand why people think that a fully rotated jump with a fall gets so much more credit than an underrotated one anyway. If you do a fully rotated 3Loop with a fall, you'll likely get -3GOE, with another -1.0 deduction, so it comes to a total of 1.0. Whereas an underrotated 3Loop will score 1.5, and with the new rules it might score even higher.

But that's not the point I want to make here. My point is that the whole downgrade thing is meant to REWARD the good jumpers as much as to punish those who are not so good. If they risk a difficult jump and do succeed, they can get a big lead over those who don't - as they rightfully should, IMO. So I see it as an incentive for skaters to perfect their jumping techniques, rather than a threat to take it out of their programs altogether.

 

[skatingbc]

I give up on this whole UR argument thing. I think it best to just agree to disagree. I despise UR's jumps and will never want them to be given higher marks than someone who actually completes a triple jump. Sorry.

Sorry, BoP, but I can't take anything you point out about URs seriously anymore since you came up with that whole, "Let's establish a point system for skaters who complete 2.648463 rotations." Seriously? I actually that you were joking at first.

I did think you had a point about spins being worth more though. I think that's about the only thing we agree on.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't really understand why people think that a fully rotated jump with a fall gets so much more credit than an underrotated one anyway.

Not a fall, a -3 GOE.

For example, Triple Lutz with a -3 GOE (ie - an absolutely atrocious landing, but not quite a fall) = 3 points.

Underroated, but clean, Triple Lutz = 1.9 points (and possibly less after -GOE deduction).

----

I give up on this whole UR argument thing. I think it best to just agree to disagree. I despise UR's jumps and will never want them to be given higher marks than someone who actually completes a triple jump. Sorry.

Well if you wish to ignore the facts, okay. You can feel free to continue and define jumps with horrible landings as "completed triple jumps."

Sorry, BoP, but I can't take anything you point out about URs seriously anymore since you came up with that whole, "Let's establish a point system for skaters who complete 2.648463 rotations." Seriously? I actually that you were joking at first.

Well, again, I don't feel that you understand. I have provided numerous examples and entertained every idea you've come up with, but you continue to ignore the arguments I have laid out (very telling how you completely ignored the example of Sasha's jump vs. Ashley's jump) and instead use the fallback that everyone uses in a debate when they are losing - "I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree". I mean, really?

The system of giving underrotated jumps their own values would be very easy. They are already denoted in the protocols.

Look at all of the different levels and classifications for spins. Every couple rotations worth of a "difficult variation" counts for something.

It makes little sense that there should be no middle ground between a Double and a Triple jump, when there is a huge margin of difference between the two. Ignoring the inherent middle ground creates far too much of a mathematical deviation and, on top of that, it places too much power in the technical specialist's hands. Human error happens and bad calls can, have, and will be made.

CoP is an exacting system where everything counts. If you do far more than a Double Jump, you should be given credit for more than a Double Jump. An underrotated Triple = at least 1/2 more of a rotation than a Double. It shows a more significant attempt at doing a Triple than a Double does.

You say establishing a point system is ridiculous, but that's exactly what CoP is. If this is the system we are working with, it needs to be perfected.

 

[Mathman]

I despise UR's jumps and will never want them to be given higher marks than someone who actually completes a triple jump. Sorry.

That is the part of your POV that I am struggling to understand. If a skater falls on the landing, do you count that as completing a triple jump?

I guess we have a different definition of what "completing" means.

 

[R.D.]

I guess I'm on the fence on this one...I still think a fall should be redefined as a complete loss of balance (both hands down on the ice, or a knee or butt on the ice) and 0 points be given for that attempt (or even points taken away, but I guess the system doesn't work like that). I'd sooner see that happen than the downgrade rule modified.

 

[mskater93]

Isn't a two footed-landing technically underrotated, or am I way off base (regarding BoP's example)?

No, I have competed under the IJS against a skater who rotated a jump, landed backwards on 2 feet, got complete credit for the jump and a -2 GOE. If the feet are still together and the free foot hits down first or both feet hit simultaneously, it will typically be called UR because the way tight feet are in a jump will mean it is technically under-rotated (the free foot will be more than 90 degrees UR).

Seriously, I see everyone is ignoring BoP's visual example who are on the UR scored correctly team. Anyone?!

 

[skatingbc]

That is the part of your POV that I am struggling to understand. If a skater falls on the landing, do you count that as completing a triple jump?

I guess we have a different definition of what "completing" means.

Well if the rotation is completed, then the TRIPLE part of the jump is completed.

Many people here talk about how errors mar a program for them and decrease their enjoyment of it. I've never really understood that. Things like skater's stepping out of jumps and touching the ice don't really bother me. URs bother me and are fairly obvious for me to see. Watching skaters underrotate jump after jump after jumps decreases my enjoyment of their program. I understand why people don't think URs should penalized as harshly as they are. I'm just not of the same opinion.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Seriously, I see everyone is ignoring BoP's visual example who are on the UR scored correctly team. Anyone?!

No need to response to the previous post, I'll just quote this.

 

[skatingbc]

Sasha did a TRIPLE flip, with a step-out and hand down. Ashley did not do a TRIPLE flip.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Insanity.

Looking at Ashley's Flip, without knowing it was downgraded, you probably would not have even felt anything was wrong with the jump.

I should actually put together a montage of jumps that have been downgraded, mixed in with jumps that had close landings but weren't downgraded, and see how accurately you can decipher which ones were which. Everyone would probably fail this because of the variances between tech specialists and because of how there is sometimes no difference at all between the jumps and it simply comes down to what the tech specialist feels like at that moment.

Any coach, judge, skater, and objective skating fan would classify Ashley's Flip as the more successful one.

Sasha's Flip had no more rotation that Ashley's. It could have been downgraded if the tech panel really wanted to.

 

[skatingbc]

Ok, BoP, since you clearly have issues with CoP, what are your ideas to go about changing it for the better?

 

[skate4ever]

If you legitimize UR as you suggest and give in-between points,
skaters who are not quite capable of clean triple jumps or 3-3 combo will be practicing under-rotation and doing them on purpose in competition.

I've talked about this before and it is simply not true. If a skater tries to do that, it will affect their landings and they won't gain any extra points.

I don't know on what grounds you're making this claim,
but you're downright wrong.

Under-rotating is considered borderline cheating.
In fact, ISU blatantly calls UR "cheated jump" in their technical handbook, which means that it can very well be done with design and intent.

Take a look for yourself. Page 14:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

Also, you're contradicting yourself.

Any underrotated jump is still an actual figure skating move. It is simply an easier version of said element.

Some underrotated jumps even look pleasing to the eye still.

If a skater tries to do that, it will affect their landings and they won't gain any extra points.

So what you're saying is:

"An under-rotated triple loop is a move that's easier than a triple loop, and it can look pleasing to the eye.
However, a skater cannot TRY to do it becasue it will affect his/her landing.
It's a jump that can only be performed properly by accident."

Obviously, that doesn't even make sense to yourself, does it?

Even if what you're saying is true,
it doesn't make any sense because
you want to create a new element that a skater can't practice, can't attempt, and can only be done by accident?

What kind of an element is THAT?

.
The difference between a "real" Triple and an underrotated Triple can be almost nothing. A few degrees of rotation.

Again, you're wrong.
A jump is downgraded when a skater under-rotates by 90 degrees or more.
I'm sure you agree that 90 out of 360 (25%) is not "a few degrees".

*********************

If your argument is that skaters should be more heavily penalized for putting their hand(s) down or doing two-foot landings because you consider them to be greater failures than UR, then I might (not agree but) understand.

But suggesting that judges should give an UR triple jump points between a double and a triple is simply outrageous.
.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I've already talked about a couple key things here but perhaps it is time for a in-depth thread in the Main forum.

 

[Mathman]

A jump is downgraded when a skater under-rotates by 90 degrees or more. I'm sure you agree that 90 out of 360 (25%) is not "a few degrees".

I think what Blades of Passion is referring to is the current rule that says if you underrotate by 89 degress you get full credit for a triple, but if you underrotate by 91 degrees, then you only get credit for a double.

To me, the question is one of proportion among the three stages of the jump. The entry/take-off, the rotations in the air, and the landing. Messing up on any of the three should call for evenhanded penalties.

If we want to be hard-nosed and say that an underroated triple is not a triple, then we should be consistent and say that a Lutz off the wrong edge is not a Lutz, and a jump that is not landed satisfactorily is not really anything at all. (Anyone can jump into the air. It's the coming down part that distinguishes good skating. )

 

[Kwanford Wife]

I think what Blades of Passion is referring to is the current rule that says if you underrotate by 89 degress you get full credit for a triple, but if you underrotate by 91 degrees, then you only get credit for a double.

To me, the question is one of proportion among the three stages of the jump. The entry/take-off, the rotations in the air, and the landing. Messing up on any of the three should call for evenhanded penalties.

If we want to be hard-nosed and say that an underroated triple is not a triple, then we should be consistent and say that a Lutz off the wrong edge is not a Lutz, and a jump that is not landed satisfactorily is not really anything at all. (Anyone can jump into the air. It's the coming down part that distinguishes good skating. )

Couldn't agree more... and while we're at it - why oh why can't we adjust the point value for a fall on a jump? The way I look at it is simple: you fall - no points. Now THAT would be a change worth having and would up the ante on the importance of technically difficult, clean skating.

 

[janetfan]

Couldn't agree more... and while we're at it - why oh why can't we adjust the point value for a fall on a jump? The way I look at it is simple: you fall - no points. Now THAT would be a change worth having and would up the ante on the importance of technically difficult, clean skating.

That's close enough for me - but remember, Speedy has promised us a new, more exciting and athletic style of skating under CoP.

He forgot to warn us that in the race for points skaters would be adding meaningless movements (umm, I apologize for plagiarizing Lambiel) and would be doing certain elements with little or no relationship to the music.

I wish they would have tweaked the system to address certain things such as bad jumps counting when they crashed and failed, and in general have a system with greater rewards for quality and originality and NOT only quantity.

6.0 = quality and the quest for a perfect program

CoP = quantity and the quest for racking up points.

Seems there could be a better/happy medium between the two.

 

[skate4ever]

I think what Blades of Passion is referring to is the current rule that says if you underrotate by 89 degress you get full credit for a triple, but if you underrotate by 91 degrees, then you only get credit for a double.

Even so, we've got to draw the line somewhere.
Plus, that's not what happens in practice (between 89 and 91 degree rotations).
Skaters get the benefit of the doubt and most jumps that receive downgrades look significantly under-rotated even to untrained eyes such as ours.

To me, the question is one of proportion among the three stages of the jump. The entry/take-off, the rotations in the air, and the landing. Messing up on any of the three should call for evenhanded penalties.

Agreed. And I think the ISU is trying to do that by amending their rules at the end of each season.
It might SEEM, however, that some aspects are penalized more heavily than others because skaters tend to make some mistakes with higher frequency and likelihood than others.

(Anyone can jump into the air. It's the coming down part that distinguishes good skating. )

Disagreed. You're placing too much emphasis on landing per se.
Anyone can land cleanly if there's nothing special to do in the air.

Most, if not all, skaters who frequently fall or mess up their landings after triple jumps can land cleanly after single or double jumps.

That's why you rarely hear anyone say "that skater has good landing skills."
It's not an isolated skill and what happens in the air makes the landing difficult or easy, successful or not.

Same with take-offs.
A common misconception is that wrong-edge takeoff is a bad "habit".
Actually, skaters are doing it for a practical reason. Taking off on a certain edge gives them more thrust and less loss of momentum.

Some skaters get more thrust when they take off on the inside edge so flutzing becomes a problem.

I'm sure Mao can do a beautiful single or double lutz by taking off on a perfect outside edge. It's just that she has/had problem doing a triple lutz.

In Yu-na's case, however, because she has focused on triple lutz since her junior years, she gets more thrust by taking off on the outside edge.
That's why she used a shallow outside edge to take off for her 3F-3T combo until last season.
Now that she's doing a less-demanding solo 3F jump, she has no problem using an inside edge, at least to this point in season.

 

[Mathman]

Even so, ...

**whole post**

I think I hold the world's record for the most number of posts on a figure skating board and never winning an argument.

About "landing skills," I guess the reason I am so impressed by a smooth landing with continuous flow into the next element is because it is a consequence of the skater's mastery of the whole jump.

Kurt Browning, commenting on the men's LP at the Rostelecom Cup, acciused Plushenko of "showing off" by holding his landong position so long on his jumps, just so everyone vould see how perfect they were.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Also, you're contradicting yourself.

So what you're saying is:

"An under-rotated triple loop is a move that's easier than a triple loop, and it can look pleasing to the eye.
However, a skater cannot TRY to do it becasue it will affect his/her landing.
It's a jump that can only be performed properly by accident."

Obviously, that doesn't even make sense to yourself, does it?

Let me clarify:

A skater can try to do an underrotated jump, but that would be pointless. Why try to do an underrotated 3Loop, for example? If you are not actually able to do the 3Loop, trying to do an underrotated 3Loop will not increase your score. Placing a Double Axel in this part of your program (which is what every skater uses as a jumping pass in place of a Triple they don't feel comfortable with) would be better.

Aside from that, what I said about messing up the landings is also true. If you are trying to land in a position where the blade isn't flowing backwards, it isn't very beneficial. Underrotations happen because a skater is going for a certain jump and doesn't attain the exact speed/takeoff/air position that is needed. A skater could try to perfect the technique of landing on the blade to accommodate an underrotation but, again, this wouldn't help their score.

Therefore, nobody would try to do it.

Again, you're wrong.
A jump is downgraded when a skater under-rotates by 90 degrees or more.
I'm sure you agree that 90 out of 360 (25%) is not "a few degrees".

It looks like MM cleared it up but, again:

A ratified Triple jump might be 90 degrees short on rotation.

An underrotated Triple jump might be 91 degrees short on rotation.

Basically no difference, except the second jump receives a massive penalty in regards to the scoring.

But suggesting that judges should give an UR triple jump points between a double and a triple is simply outrageous.

It's not outrageous at all, for the reasons I already pointed out:

1.) An underrotated Triple is not a Double. It is much more than a Double and should be scored as such.

2.) There is too much mathematical deviation in the scoring when it comes to downgrades.

Skaters get the benefit of the doubt and most jumps that receive downgrades look significantly under-rotated even to untrained eyes such as ours.

This isn't true. Or at least, it isn't true consistently.

Even so, we've got to draw the line somewhere.

Ah, that's just the thing, though. It isn't BLACK and WHITE.

For example, when a person kills someone the description of that act can vary. It might be Manslaughter, it might be First Degree Murder, it might be Second Degree Murder, etc. The penalty and definition of that killing depends on the situation. We don't just throw everyone in the death chair.

In terms of skating, look what happened with the wrong-edge deductions. "e" was being handed out inconsistently. If a skater was attempting a Lutz and had a very slight roll over to the inside edge, sometimes it wouldn't get marked at all with a deduction and sometimes it would get an "e" and a massive penalty would be imposed upon a tiny flaw in the jump.

ISU decided to introduce "!" to fix this problem. They expanded the definition of the Lutz from 2 categorizations to 3. The result is that wrong-edge calls are now being made far more fairly.

The exact same thing should happen when it comes to how jump rotations are defined.

 

[Tonichelle]

Kurt Browning, commenting on the men's LP at the Rostelecom Cup, acciused Plushenko of "showing off" by holding his landong position so long on his jumps, just so everyone vould see how perfect they were.

he would know, he's done that a few times himself