Ladies Qualifying Round

[Rgirl]

Jill Trenary was my favorite skater when I was a kid and I remember I loved hearing she was one of Oksana Baiul's favorites too.

And unlike Sasha Trenary won a World Championship.

Yes indeedy, Jill has a World gold while Sasha has two silvers. And, as we all know, two silvers don't equal one gold in any way, shape, or form.

Off-topic, but another thing struck me re the COP. At least once every major competition, Terry Gannon makes reference to who has the highest SP or LP score since the advent of the COP, at least for the Ladies. I don't think you can really count the GPS scores from fall '03 because the judges were giving out hugely inflated component scores, although I do think the results hold up in terms of the relative placement of the skaters during that period.

Here's where I'm going: With the COP, it is now possible to take, for example, the COP scores from a given number of comparable events, eg, four GPS events, two GPS Finals, two US Nationals, and two Worlds; add up the total scores, or given segments such as the SPs or LPs; and compare two or more skaters from the same country in terms of which skater garnered more points than the other(s).

Of course it would be a meaningless exercise except for personal interest, but there are all kinds of COP games you can play among skaters. For example, in 10 comparable events, one skater may have been awarded significantly more points, but have never received a medal compared to another skater with, say, two gold medals but whose overall COP total is less than the no-medals skater. This could happen between two skaters in which the first skater came in a close fourth in all 10 events, whereas the second skater came in between fourth and 10th in eight of the 10 events, plus the two first place (gold medal) finishes.

Yeah, just what we need. Yet another way to fight about which skater is best.

Actually, what made me think of it was an article from 2004 about Shizuka. First, I want to emphasize that I love Shizuka's skating. I liked it even before she made such great improvements so quickly when she changed coaches from Richard Callaghan to Tarasova; but since Worlds '04, I've been in love. Anyway, I knew Shizza's record, but somehow seeing it in writing made me think, "Wow, those are the only medals she's won?" In terms of serious international competition, ie, not counting the GPS, since 1998, Shizuka has only won one one World gold, and, of course, the '06 OGM. For five years, from 1999 until 2003, Shizuka didn't even make the Japanese World team. And a certain other skater has all those shoeboxes full of silvers.

PLEASE believe me that I'm not trying to turn this into a "which skater is best" thing. For me, it's a "skate god" thing, for lack of a better description. It's just an interesting mystery how different lives do or do not achieve certain things. The other thing that struck me in the '04 article about Shizuka is that she said she never sets goals for a season, such as "I want to get on the World podium" or whatever. But in another quote, Arakawa said, "I work hard on my jumps. I care very much that my jump landingås are as smooth as they can be." It seemed to me that this is a different thought process from most US skaters, where the vast majority of the culture is goal oriented.

Sorry to go Off-topic for so long. I'll be the first toåç say these issues shouldn't be here, but perhaps in a summer thread, if in a thread at all. Done now. "South Park" is on.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

Here is what Arakawa said in a recent article in which she contemplates her future.

"After the 2004 championships, I continued (as a skater) for another year against my own will, which I hated. But when I was preparing for Turin, I really poured in all of my efforts, deciding to give it my best shot."

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/sports/general/news/20060313p2a00m0sp023000c.html

Yes, it is interesting to look at the total competitive record of some of the Olympic stars. Sarah Hughes, for instance won only three events in her entire senior career. She won Skate Canada in 2001, the 1999 Vienna Cup, and -- let's see -- I think there was one more, LOL.

By comparison, Alissa Czisny won 2005 Skate Canada and the 2002 Gardena Trophy. So she is just one victory off Sarah's record.

That's a good idea about adding up points. Maybe the ISU will change their formula for computing their skater's rankings. Right now they just take placements into account. The recent announcement that they will give out $450,000 in prizes to the top finishers might make them rethink their approach.

 

[Rgirl]

Oooooh, be careful about asking that question on GS, Dee. After a particularly big dogpile on Cohen, once I asked, "Why do people think Sasha is so snobby? Of course it's a matter of opinion, it's just that I've never gotten that impression from her behavior and am curious why others do," and weee doggies! Did I ever get jumped on by a certain mod who replied, in all seriousness, "Rgirl! You have got to realize that everyone is not in love and obsessed with Sasha like you are! Now move on!"

And shockingly, I got the SAME COMMENTS said to me, too.
But RG- I'm curious. Maybe I don't know or forgot but how do you feel about Cohen...do you like her? Not like her? Or just like to talk about her?
I love the way you put it...wee doggies! But Red Dog is far and above those doggies.

WARNING! 1,415 POST AHEAD: PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Hey RD,
1. And shockingly, I got the SAME COMMENTS said to me, too.
Sadly, I know you've gotten the same comments from the same source, probably more than I. Pathetic, IMO.

2. But RG- I'm curious. Maybe I don't know or forgot but how do you feel about Cohen...do you like her? Not like her? Or just like to talk about her?
I go back and forth about Cohen. This is because I'm also a "nonfan"--meaning I love figure skating and all figure skaters just for doing what they do, but may like some more than others either all the time no matter what they do and some up and down depending at least in part on what they do. I had high hopes for Sasha early on, but was quite frustrated with her in fall '03 when it seemed her whole focus was on being the first woman to land a quad in competion. Blek. But at the '02 Olympics, I loved her SP and liked the aggressive way she skated "Carmen" and didn't care that she fell on her 3Lutz/3toe attempt. IMO, it showed moxie. Other skaters fell on easier jumps than that. I didn't like the choreography and knowing Sasha had done a lot of it, plus the costume (which I really liked) I thought she was trying to do too many things at too young an age. Same things go for Worlds '02.

I liked the direction in which she was going in '02/03 after she started with Tarasova and again, wasn't bothered by the falls because she was making progress in other areas. In the fall of '03, I saw her skate Tarasova's black/white "Swan Lake" live at Campbell's and found Cohen's performance absolutely thrilling. Great choreography, superb execution.

Tarasova made changes in the "SW" choreography before every GPS event Sasha did, and the version she did for Trophee Lalique '03 I thought was brilliant. But the constant changing was murder on Sasha's consistency. The same thing happened with TAT and Ilia Kulik in '96/97 and even into fall '97, ie, constantly changing the choreography, which IMO resulted in not only inconsistency but also injury to Kulik--JMO. I could understand why Cohen and/or her mother did not want to continue with Tarasova.

I thought Robin Wagner did some good things for Sasha. Her jump technique improved immensely as did her edging. But I wanted to kick RW's butt for the way she destroyed Tarasova's "Swan Lake." IMO, RW killed everything about it with her changes, ie, the music; the choreography; Sasha's approach to her performance' everything, right down to the costume, which IMO made Sasha look like a giraffe by emphasizing her long torso. The costume just made Sasha look dumpy, which is quite a feat. Although I really liked the technical improvements Cohen made with Wagner, the relationship clearly didn't have the right chemistry and I think Cohen leaving Wagner to return to Mr. Nicks was the best decision she could have made, especially considering the tumult that we now know from Sasha's own reports that her parents were splitting up around that time.

In short, during '03/04, I loved Sasha's skating at Campbell's and think she could have done wonderfully if TAT hadn't kept making so many changes to the choreography so often. Also, according to both Sasha and TAT, Tarasova's health problems became problematic in terms of coaching. Sasha has also said in a TV interview at the Olympics (IIRC, it was on the "Today" show): "[While I was being coached by Tarasova in fall '03] I had several bad performances in a row and [Tatiana] couldn't handle it."

Then there was the change to Wagner who, IMO, helped Cohen's technique and murdered TAT's B/W "Swan Lake" choreography for Worlds. I think RW was also a negative influence on Cohen's psychology re skating and competition--as was TAT, BTW, IMO. (Can I use anymore acronyms? ) Of course all this is JMO. (Yep. )

Since Cohen's return to Nicks, I feel her head is in a much better place. I think she's still hampered by the injury(s) she had in the fall and the battering her chronic problems have taken under the COP. Of course every skater is working under the COP; but IMO, Cohen has been pushed and pushed herself the hardest and longest in terms of extreme spin, spiral, and choreographic positions. Also, IMO, she looks exhausted, which is understandable for someone in her position during an Olympic season. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think her eating habits, which she reports herself in her online journal, to maintain her low body weight, which IMO is too low by at least five pounds of muscle, is adding a significant amount of stress to her body. I think this has made her more susceptible to exhaustion and illness than is optimal for her training.

While getting my MS in sports science, my sports physiology professors hammered into our heads that being an elite athlete does not mean you're a healthy person. Elite athletes (EAs) must push their musculoskeletal structure, their physiologic system, and perhaps their psychological state into areas that would be considered unhealthy. In interviews, Sasha often refers to the "aches and pains" that are just part of being an athlete, which is absolutely right. However, one can push oneself too far. I think we'll see today if she has pushed herself too far. BTW, I think John Nicks's best coaching advice to her is "Have more fun," meaning off the ice and outside of skating.

In summary, I hope this explains ONCE AND FOR ALL that basically, I like Sasha's skating but wouldn't call myself a fan in the Kwan fan sense or sense of those whose signatures are made up of "I LOVE SKATER A!" or wallpaper showing their favorite skater(s). I get frustrated when Sasha gets into situations, either by her own choice or fate, that have a negative impact on her skating. I'm pleased when she skates well. Obviously--very obviously, lol--I like writing about her. I find her to be a fascinating study in contrasts, ie, great potential as yet not fully realized; the extremely hateful reactions so many people have towards her--interesting group psychology--contrasted with the way certain companies use her for ads and shows such as that fashion designer contest (can't remember the name) wanted to use her as well. Interesting dichotomy. Finally, Sasha seems to me to be an old soul, which I find interesting in a sport in which youth is the order of the day. In short, I have an interest in Sasha for the reasons stated above, as well as others. Finally, let's say I have a "like/not like" reaction to her skating.

3. I love the way you put it...wee doggies! But Red Dog is far and above those doggies. I guess you have to be an old broad, an old fart, or a fan of classic sitcoms to get that reference. On "The Beverly Hillbillies," patriarch Jed Clampett used to say "Weee doggies!" (long "o" in "doggies) when he was excited, surprised, or reacted in a strongly positive way to something. Synonym for our, "Yahoo!" or "Arrrright!" Don't know how "Red Dog" fits in with that.

I felt like I was walking through those talking apple trees in "The Wizard of Oz" who start throwing their apples at you because you picked one, lol

.Been there, done that. About 20 times.

I know, man. Unfortunately, I've seen it happen to you all too often.

Rgirl

 

[R.D.]

alright....that was one heck of a response...and thanks for your essay to my question. You sure do talk about her, that's for sure.

I just couldn't stand it when all of you were busy saying she's thin, but after looking at her during her Worlds SP, I'm actually starting to agree now. She seems so out of it, like she doesn't want to be there, but I chalk that up mostly to the excessive stress of the OLY season.

Even without understanding the reference to the old show, the "doggies" line was still funny, IMO.