Ladies Short - Notes & Results
- Thread starter Rosaleen
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
Has it always been this bad???
This is the first year I have tuned in to the entire competition through the Web and audio Eurosport, so of course I'm getting WAY more information about not only all the performances, but zillions of opinions and commentary about all the performances.
Of course I've always been aware of suspect judging just from watching on TV. Of course that culminated with the SLC debacle.
For those of you have always had more TV coverage and/or have utilized the Web and other sources in the past, has the judging ALWAYS been this suspect? It just seems like there is LOTS of propping up and holding down possibly going on. Can't wait for more opinions from those who are there.
I'm a huge believer that judging should be based on the RULES for crying out loud (i.e. mandatory deductions are mandatory deductions) and based on the performance on the day.
I'm sad to realize that the FIRST thoughts that came to mind as I was listening to the commentary on Michelle's performance before/after was 1) Punishment for no Grand Prix and 2) Punishment for not upping her own ante (i.e. 3/3's) in awhile.
I couldn't believe Ando had a 6 ordinal after her skate, and I equally couldn't believe Michelle had a 5.1 for technical after her skate.
I'm beginning to wonder why any of these competitors would devote their life to this if this is the judging one has to contend with. I would sure love to hear first hand why some of these judges gave the marks and placements they did. Maybe there is a rational explanation for some of it. I'm sure not seeing it at this point.
DG
This is the first year I have tuned in to the entire competition through the Web and audio Eurosport, so of course I'm getting WAY more information about not only all the performances, but zillions of opinions and commentary about all the performances.
Of course I've always been aware of suspect judging just from watching on TV. Of course that culminated with the SLC debacle.
For those of you have always had more TV coverage and/or have utilized the Web and other sources in the past, has the judging ALWAYS been this suspect? It just seems like there is LOTS of propping up and holding down possibly going on. Can't wait for more opinions from those who are there.
I'm a huge believer that judging should be based on the RULES for crying out loud (i.e. mandatory deductions are mandatory deductions) and based on the performance on the day.
I'm sad to realize that the FIRST thoughts that came to mind as I was listening to the commentary on Michelle's performance before/after was 1) Punishment for no Grand Prix and 2) Punishment for not upping her own ante (i.e. 3/3's) in awhile.
I couldn't believe Ando had a 6 ordinal after her skate, and I equally couldn't believe Michelle had a 5.1 for technical after her skate.
I'm beginning to wonder why any of these competitors would devote their life to this if this is the judging one has to contend with. I would sure love to hear first hand why some of these judges gave the marks and placements they did. Maybe there is a rational explanation for some of it. I'm sure not seeing it at this point.
DG
tharrtell said:
I agree. But doing the whole thing still depends how her body going to hold up. She has said in her interviews that the consistant 3/3 depends on if her body can sustain the impact. Same as you, I can't imagine she keeping the motivation after all those years. You just don't know how much she has been going through this season emotionally and physically.
She dose not need any more titles, OGM or not dose not affect her place in the hearts of her fans. As for her haters even with 3 OGMs would not make them love her.
Here is to a great performance from Kween in LP!!
eyria said:
Well, I think when Sasha is on, her presentation is better than Michelle's - across the board - better spins, better spirals, better in-betweens and better speed. I think Sasha is incomparable in those facets of skating (except for speed). I think the Japanese ladies needed the 3-3's to beat Michelle. Ando did a very difficult 3Z-3l, Michelle and Sasha both did the 3Z-2t, which is much easier. Ando should be awarded for the difficult combo. Without seeing the programs, it's really hard to judge and reports say Michelle had a serious flutz.
I heard on another board that the Referee Jan Hoffmann told the USFSA that Michelle got a .1 deduction on each mark because her program was two seconds over the 2 min 40 sec.
I am glad that the ISU are such sticklers for accuracy. But why, then, didn't they deduct Arakawa for missing a rotation on her camel spin and underrotating her 3/3?
BTW, Sasha's flutz is FAR more severe than Kwan's could ever be.
I am glad that the ISU are such sticklers for accuracy. But why, then, didn't they deduct Arakawa for missing a rotation on her camel spin and underrotating her 3/3?
BTW, Sasha's flutz is FAR more severe than Kwan's could ever be.
mzheng said:
mzheng, I totally agree - I don't think she needs any more titles. However, I'm not sure she believes that. I was watching the SLC short last night, and her response to her marks was that of a woman who very much wants an Oly gold. She was disappointed with her tech marks and was talking to the air 'Come on, come on,' urging the presentation marks to be shown. There was a fierce look on her face which relaxed only slightly when she realized she was in first. She wants that gold, IMO. Why would she consider Torino otherwise? Yes, I know she says she loves to compete, and I believe that; however, elite skating is such a huge committment that I cannot see sticking out two long years if the gold wasn't really important to her. That said, I would be so trilled if she were able to do it.
tharrtell said:
A gold medal is IMPORTANT to ALL skaters. And Michelle, as diplomatic as she is, wants that gold. Besides a good skates, it is what everyone is training for is a performance to win over the rest. No one go in a competition and think, geez wouldn't it be nice to just get a medal or wouldn't it be nice if I get second or third.
rpiche said:
rpiche - That was my point, only more succinctly put. I've heard people say that the gold isn't important to MK. My point is that it is very important even though she might try to imply otherwise. She wouldn't still be here if it weren't. She's competitive, and there is nothing wrong with that.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2003
this is CRAZY!!! michelle in fourth. what the f*&k! i just cannot believe that. i've heard that there should have been deductions for arakawa and ando that obviously were not taken while kwan skated very well...clean and inspired. her marks had better be investigated. this is unacceptable. now she'll be lucky to get a bronze. i just can't believe that this could potentially be the worst worlds finish for her in almost 10 years!
Maybe MK's skating position had something to do with her placement. If she is placed between both girls who did harder combo's then her easier combo is seen as weaker. Whereas Sasha is last, so her presentation, which would be better than the jumping beans, overcomes the technical aspect.
Wonder how MK would do if she was skating last. Maybe she would be in a higher spot.
Wonder how MK would do if she was skating last. Maybe she would be in a higher spot.
gracefulswan said:this is CRAZY!!! michelle in fourth. what the f*&k! i just cannot believe that. i've heard that there should have been deductions for arakawa and ando that obviously were not taken while kwan skated very well...clean and inspired. her marks had better be investigated. this is unacceptable. now she'll be lucky to get a bronze. i just can't believe that this could potentially be the worst worlds finish for her in almost 10 years!
Have you seen the programs (live)? Just curious!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
If Michelle received a .1 time deduction, as reported by Euterpe, that could account for why she ended up behind Shizuka and Miki, while Sasha did not. In that case there is no reason to speculate about whether the judges are trying to send anyone a "message."
For most programs, I do not understand how they can go over the time limit, unless the skater gets way behind her music. The music itself, after all, is edited pretty precisely. But The Feeling Begins has that section after the actual music stops, where there is just the sound of wind blowing, or something like that, while Michelle poses and slowly breaks into a radiant smile.
At Nationals Dick Button commented that since the audience can't hear the music at this point, it makes it seem like Michelle finishes behind her music, which detracts from the effectiveness of the program. So maybe this turned out to be a costly choreographic error, even though it is a heart-grabbing conclusion to that marvelous program.
Congratulations to Sasha! She must have skated her heart out. I can't wait to see it for myself.
Mathman
For most programs, I do not understand how they can go over the time limit, unless the skater gets way behind her music. The music itself, after all, is edited pretty precisely. But The Feeling Begins has that section after the actual music stops, where there is just the sound of wind blowing, or something like that, while Michelle poses and slowly breaks into a radiant smile.
At Nationals Dick Button commented that since the audience can't hear the music at this point, it makes it seem like Michelle finishes behind her music, which detracts from the effectiveness of the program. So maybe this turned out to be a costly choreographic error, even though it is a heart-grabbing conclusion to that marvelous program.Congratulations to Sasha! She must have skated her heart out. I can't wait to see it for myself.
Mathman
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Many of the posters on this and other boards have seen the skating via live stream on RAI. Those with recorders have replayed jumps in slo-mo and have confirmed that both Arakawa and Ando pre-rotated and/or underrotated their 3/3s.
It seems that cheated 3/3s are worth more than fully rotated 3/2s, and it's OK to cut mandatory rotations from spins without getting deductions.
Meanwhile, deducting for flutz applies only to Kwan, and not to Cohen.
It seems that cheated 3/3s are worth more than fully rotated 3/2s, and it's OK to cut mandatory rotations from spins without getting deductions.
Meanwhile, deducting for flutz applies only to Kwan, and not to Cohen.
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- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
I hope Michelle is really pissed! LOL! She has been low balled before, especially in the short program. Hopefully, she'll pull a vintage Kwan in the long (no matter where she ends up). I seem to be the only one that feels this could actually be a positive thing for Michelle. First of all, the Olympics are two years away and she has plenty of time to make a final decision and to prepare. And, she now has real motivation. She must push herself harder than ever (similar to the change from 95 to 96) if she wants a shot in Italy. But, we should probably wait and see what happens in the long. Arakawa, Ando and Cohen are not models of consistency. Yet, having said that, I'd hate to seem falter now. They've been magnificent so far. Whatever happens, I hope Michelle can finish this competition with a performance she can be proud of (and that will push her to work her tail off for 2004-2005). She's still the best in my book.
euterpe said:
You can't entirely judge from seeing something on video feed or tv. Yes, you can evaluate the jumps, but there's more to marks than just jumps. It is very different when you see it live. I know I was blown away by Irina's speed the first time I saw her live. Michelle may not have received a deduction for a flutz.
Seems like pretty poor sports to me - when Kwan doesn't win everyone screams foul play.
I do think it's awfully picking to penalize her for going 2 seconds over.
