Ladies - Short Program

[YunaBliss]

Those were NOT steps, they were backward gliding / minor pushes.

They DO have a communication clearly outlining it. Go to the bottom of Communication #1611 and read the section entitled "Remarks". This is specifically what it says:

3. The S&PTC would like to remind the Judges that if prior to the element of Singles Short Program “jump immediately proceeded by connecting steps and/or by other comparable Free Skating movements” there are no steps and movements or there is break between steps/movements and the jump, the GOE must be reduced according to the Guidelines.

My point is, Yuna's jump was not intended to be a solo jump. Just because she couldn't complete the combo, you can't retroactively treat it as if it were intended to be a solo jump and apply this rule. Rather, the other penalties apply for failing to complete her combo - e.g. fall or step-out.

 

[Spun Silver]

^ I totally agree, rain, except that I've always liked Miki even though she hasn't always managed to integrate lyricism and technique. In fact for quite a while she didn't even seem to be aiming at beauty, just power and fierceness. I liked that too - but occasionally when I saw her skate more lyrically I felt that was her truest self and what she most needed to show as a skater. Of course, skating is a sport and she couldn't have gone far with only lyricism and no power, so she's followed the right path. I'm just so happy that she's flowering now, against all expectations - to me, that was a wow performance. I was amazed and it melted my heart. ETA: It also makes me very happy to see all the respect and appreciation she's getting... all season but especially today. It's been a long, hard wait for her.

Makarova also delighted me, it just came out of the blue for me to see her do a whole program with such confidence and flair.

Leonova did well but what a program and getup. Other than that, the ladies' event was kind of a downer - lots of nice moments but no triumphant performances. Kostner was doing beautifully until the fall - thank God she didn't haves a meltdown after that. I was very disappointed in Yu Na's program and costume which had little connection with Giselle (why not use some other music without so many connotations), not so much in her performance which I figure was just her getting her sea legs again. And Mao... I just felt bad. I know nothing but winning satisfies her and I want her long struggle to end - victoriously!

 

[Serious Business]

3. The S&PTC would like to remind the Judges that if prior to the element of Singles Short Program “jump immediately proceeded by connecting steps and/or by other comparable Free Skating movements” there are no steps and movements or there is break between steps/movements and the jump, the GOE must be reduced according to the Guidelines.

That is a reiteration of the existing rule, not a clarification that the steps/movement must be sufficiently complex/difficult. I agree with you that the rule/reminder that the steps/movement be immediate is something the judges sometimes ignore, or perhaps the word "immediate" means a much longer duration to judges. I disagree that it applies in the case of Yuna's 3lutz in this particular SP performance.

Really, I don't think it's that big of a problem these days any more. I can't think of any top level skaters that telegraph their jumps (the last one that came to mind is Elena Liashenko). With the advent of the COP and the intricacies it demands, I think all the top skaters can do a triple out of steps. A lot of them are even doing simple steps before their SP combo, such as Yuna or even Patrick Chan with his 4toe/3toe (that he turned into a solo 4t at the GPF).

I am, of course, much more forgiving in this and many other aspects of skate judging than you are. Different cross strokes for different folks.

 

[brightphoton]

My goodness, Alissa stayed upright. I still think she's a headcase, but she might surprise me tomorrow.

Rachael Flatt's footwork was very fast and complex. If she and Alissa manage to not bungle up the long, the US could get their 3 spots back. As for the men ... :disapp:

Miki Ando looks so pretty Her dress is so flowy, she's skates with such loveliness. Her jumps are also huge!

Mao's costume was much better than the usual short program dress. Shame about that triple axel, but she'll get it in the long.

Yuna's skate was okay. If it weren't for the hype and buildup about her artistry, I would have never even known she was playing Giselle. Tentative and reserved.

 

[fscric]

It's good that I don't have vested interest in any ladies, though I would like Yuna to win the gold. However, I do think it was a mistake to skip the whole season and debut 2 new programmes at such a big event, the pressure is huge.

 

[Blades of Passion]

My point is, Yuna's jump was not intended to be a solo jump. Just because she couldn't complete the combo, you can't retroactively treat it as if it were intended to be a solo jump and apply this rule.

Um, YES, you can. That is in fact exactly how it works. Her planned solo jump became the combination jump and thus her planned combination jump became the solo jump.

That is a reiteration of the existing rule, not a clarification that the steps/movement must be sufficiently complex/difficult. I agree with you that the rule/reminder that the steps/movement be immediate is something the judges sometimes ignore, or perhaps the word "immediate" means a much longer duration to judges. I disagree that it applies in the case of Yuna's 3lutz in this particular SP performance.

How long have you been following figure skating? Did you ever skate yourself? This rule has been around forever. It's not something new that suddenly came about with CoP. The way the CoP rule is written may not specifically spell-out the fact that "connecting steps or comparable movement" needs to be something more complex than simply lifting your foot up off the ice and placing it back down before jumping, or doing a single 3-turn, but that IS the rule and that's how it has always been. If that wasn't the rule then there would be no need to have such a rule in the first place, as EVERY jump is intrinsically preceded by some form of simple step or turn (such as the 3-turn that comes before a Flip or Toeloop, or stepping onto the opposing foot as you lift up into an Axel, or changing feet as you setup for a Salchow/Loop/Lutz).

 

[YunaBliss]

Um, YES, you can. That is in fact exactly how it works. Her planned solo jump became the combination jump and thus her planned combination jump became the solo jump.

Well, again, I understand you have a passionate view on this, but you admitted yourself that is not how it works in practice, and many judges do not follow your approach. And I believe it should not be applied the way you believe it should apply. What you are saying is that a failed combo deserves negative GOE for fall/step-out on the first jump AND additional negative GOE for not have preceding steps for the jump that suddenly is deemed as a solo jump, thus ensuring that the final GOE is -3. That sounds like an unfair double jeopardy to me, and practically, fall/step-out will ensure that the skater receives negative GOE in any event (which Yuna did receive).

 

[daniel1406]

guys, think easy.

Yuna's first jump wasn't intended to be a solo jump. (she got average -1.5 deduction anyway).

And wat about the second one, 3F+2T - she did with steps.... so does that mean that the judges should give her extra point for doing that(she got +0.9 only - was just + on her jump)?

 

[YunaBliss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xRbY7Glp0Pw#at=436

Tracy Wilson's commentary on Yuna's SP.

 

[Bruin714]

Just random thoughts about the short program:

It's looking good for Russia and the U.S. to qualify three spots for next year's Worlds. Alissa needs to stay in the top 5 though because I suspect Kanako will pass Rachel after the long program (8). But wouldn't it be something if Alissa manages to win a bronze medal.

In the SP, I wish there was a rule against doing all three jumping passes in a row. It bothers me.

It is sad that Marai and Yukari, both medal contenders, did not get a chance to compete. They both could have won this short program with in this mistakes-filled short program.

If team manages to qualify three skaters and they all end up in the top ten, that should earn them a 4th competitor next year. This wouldn't have helped the US year, of course, but maybe next year.

 

[HalfTriple]

Chill, everyone,
I don't see why +1 becomes public nuisance. I have seen too many protocols containing -2 to +2 at one element. And judges tend to apply independently GOE points to each element as long as it meets GOE requirement. I too think, though, it's a mistake but it's not so abnormal as to outage. It's just Ms. Kim's skating solidity. In fact, I would have given her at least two or three points higher PCS than Ando. It's very difficult to beat Kim systematically. The basic strategy Orser has in the past developed for Kim was one-up in every element, which became a brick for Kim to lean onto, and her technical margin also contributes to this close win even when she blew a big chunk of points at jump.

 

[Bruin714]

I admire Asada for her determination, for trying the most difficult content. But really, she doesn't need a triple axel in the short. If she just did her triple flip-double toe, triple loop, and a double axel cleanly, she would have easily been in the top 3, and maybe her PCS would have risen to its rightful level. Her strategy should be to set herself to win the long program rather than take unnecessary risks to win the short program! No medals for winning the short program.

 

[Puchi]

Well, again, I understand you have a passionate view on this, but you admitted yourself that is not how it works in practice, and many judges do not follow your approach. And I believe it should not be applied the way you believe it should apply. What you are saying is that a failed combo deserves negative GOE for fall/step-out on the first jump AND additional negative GOE for not have preceding steps for the jump that suddenly is deemed as a solo jump, thus ensuring that the final GOE is -3. That sounds like an unfair double jeopardy to me, and practically, fall/step-out will ensure that the skater receives negative GOE in any event (which Yuna did receive).

YunaBliss, I think you don't get Blades of Passion's point.

You said in other post:

My point is, Yuna's jump was not intended to be a solo jump. Just because she couldn't complete the combo, you can't retroactively treat it as if it were intended to be a solo jump and apply this rule. Rather, the other penalties apply for failing to complete her combo - e.g. fall or step-out.

The penalty for failing to complete her combo (in the event she wouldn't have converted her solo jump into a combo) would be 3Lutz+ COMBO, wich means she would receive 80% of the base value of the lutz (4.8 pts) instead of the full base value of a Lutz (6.00 pts). You must add to that deduction the negative GOE for the step out (usually -2.00 GOE).

But since she converted her next jumping pass into a combo (to avoid the Lutz + COMBO penalty), the first jump counts as the solo jump and must be treated as such. In this case, according to the rules of the Short Program, the solo jump must be "immediately proceeded by connecting steps and/or by other comparable Free Skating movements”

Since her 3Lutz didn't fulfil this requirement (for whatever reason), deduction in GOE is mandatory even if the jump was completed succesfully. The step out on the landing just adds to the negative GOE, and that's why Blades of Passion says it should have received -3.00 GOE (mandatory element missed + imperfect landing).

Does this help?

 

[hikki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xRbY7Glp0Pw#at=436

Tracy Wilson's commentary on Yuna's SP.

Thanks for the link. The commentator isn't Tracy Wilson. I believe it's PJ Kwong.