glad i am not the only one who thinks cynthia got a gift from judges
Ladies SP
- Thread starter flying camel
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
Exactly. The Canadian ladies were clearly given gifts of 2-3 points each here in Vancouver, so far. But wait, someone above says that 6.0 was responsible for judging impropriety and CoP has fixed it! We must be MISTAKEN!
Actually they can. It was done for decades under 6.0. What you CAN'T do is pretend that you can mathematically add TE + PR in a system of limitless points for each mark. It makes no sense. The arbitary multipliers contained in the CoP PR/PC mark illustrate this. They are a way of fudging the math to make it appear to be consistent, but it's an illusion. "If I multiply the PR score by 1.6, it will be in the same general area as the technical marks, and now they count the same!" Uh, no. At best you could continually tweak the numbers to make them work in some kind of reasonable way, but the ISU doesn't even bother! CoP presentation score is a joke.
Apparently you DO, since when someone suggests fixes to the problems, your response is to tell them to stop watching skating.
What actually is killing the sport (present tense) is the cure which is worse than the disease. The judging impropriety in 6.0 was sickening but it is still happening, right now in front of your eyes. Before it was in the open, now it's in secret. That's not an improvement. Nothing has been fixed. Why is there still a "home field advantage"? Why are Nationals scores so inflated over ISU scores? I thought it was an exacting system of points, blameless and above manipulations of judges?
Give me a break.
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Protocols are out:
http://web.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/02/05/60818/1/ladies_short.pdf
If Yuna can recieve over 72 in the short with an ! mark on her flip, imagine what her score could potentially be without the ! mark
http://web.icenetwork.com/documents/2009/02/05/60818/1/ladies_short.pdf
If Yuna can recieve over 72 in the short with an ! mark on her flip, imagine what her score could potentially be without the ! mark
Just love Yu-na to pieces! That was a fabulous performance! Was the spiral squence a bit wobbly at the beginning? not sure. but it was great no matter what.
Joannie shone! She was so free and sparkling, best program performance wise for her. Keep the momentum Joannie to the long!
What happened to Mao? I want to see!
Joannie shone! She was so free and sparkling, best program performance wise for her. Keep the momentum Joannie to the long!
What happened to Mao? I want to see!
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2009
Wow, Mao's double lutz was ratified as a lutz. Hopefully she can get her jumps consistent. It's a wonder why she hasn't, considering she's training 10 hours, right?
I'm curious as to why people think Joannie was overscored? Is it because she actually skated her SP clean for the first time this season and her score was such a shock because it actually matched the program she executed? Thinking back at Skate Canada, I agree more with her score here (despite the fact that you can't/shouldn't compare competitions).
An argument can be made for Cynthia BUT I thought she at least deserved the GOEs she got on her footwork-triple toe. *shrug*
I'm curious as to why people think Joannie was overscored? Is it because she actually skated her SP clean for the first time this season and her score was such a shock because it actually matched the program she executed? Thinking back at Skate Canada, I agree more with her score here (despite the fact that you can't/shouldn't compare competitions).
An argument can be made for Cynthia BUT I thought she at least deserved the GOEs she got on her footwork-triple toe. *shrug*
Excuse me? I have every right to state what I think is wrong w/skating as you do to praise CoP to the skies. You don't see me telling you to go away.
I have been a fan of this sport for close to 25 years now and it is in more trouble now than in the days after SLC. Long time fans are stopping their interest in the sport and why? The days of gorgeous and exciting skating are almost past. There are exceptions, but for the most part we're seeing sloppy skating and skaters attempting to do moves they can't because if they don't, they won't get the point totals. Which then leads to the increase of injuries we've been seeing the last few years.
And before anyone says it...Of course there were major injuries in 6.0, but were there as many skaters w/serious injuries as we're seeing these days? I don't remember it.
Oh and then there's these oh so complicated step sequences while yes, very difficult have nothing to do w/the music being played. There are exceptions, but for the most part the moves on the ice have no relation to the music being played. No wonder for the most part people are saying it was a boring event these days.
Was 6.0 perfect, of course not. It had it's problems, but we had a golden chance after SLC to finally get the house in order. It wasn't the system that was the problem. It was the people who used it to their skaters advantage that was the problem. So what if there's a new system. So long as the same people are playing the same games, but this time behind a cloak of secrecy and protection, how does that help the sport? If the ISU had only banned those judges who we all know were guilty of playing those games and then made the Judge independant of the federations, then and only then real change would have come to the sport.
CoP...All it is, is window dressing for the public and a system that the judges can hide behind when the next scandal happens. And it *wiil* happen.
And now...I'm sure you need to dive your head back into it's cozy lil home in the sand. I may not be a skater, but I love this sport and it's dying. What makes me really angry is that there's not one thing I can do about it because the ISU is the only sporting organization I know of that treats it's fans like we're idiots who know nothing.
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- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
I did not quote you nor was I referring to you in my post, it was a general comment as I have seen much of the same arguments for a long time. I have been skating for 20 years, since I was three, and am involved in many aspects of the sport so please do not suggest that my "head is in the sand". I love this sport as well and like the direction skating is heading. I am just as entitled to my position as you are.
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2007
^^^ Good discussion with many great points made on both sides. Yay for GS!
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
I'm in the long time fan category now (twenty years! go me)... I find it just as exciting, if not more so. ladies have always been a bore lol Dance is getting more and more exciting with the advancement of the N. Americans (who were all but shut out before)... Mens are always exciting... and pairs are a bit dull but that goes in cycles
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2007
I have been a fan of figure skating for close to 25 years as well and I'm interested in this sport more than ever. I think what you mean is that your interest in the sport is waning since there are no American ladies who can finish on podium regularly. You're not a fan of any of the top skaters out there, hence the waning interest. So please don't blame the new judging system. Also, I hear the number of fans are growing exponentially in Asia, so your generalization was stated as if America is the center of the world and the sport.
I think the new judging system is more accurate and fair. With the 6.0 system, I was always under the impression that if you are an established skater without any major mistake in the program and you got the crowd cheering after your skate, the judges gave you favorable scores. It was harder for underdogs or new skaters to "break through". The days of gorgeous and exciting skating are almost past??? Since this is the Ladies SP thread, I assume you are referring to former ladies skating. May I ask which skater you are referring to? I've never seen such a large group of talents at a single time like now. Aside from Yu-na and Mao, Joannie, Carolina and American teenagers are closely chacing them leaving them no room to make mistakes.
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I meant exactly what I said. Please do not put words in my mouth. Unless you have telepathic powers no one is aware of and you can change my opinion through them that is.
Second...I am Canadian, but a fan of many skaters. Including Alissa, Keauna and Rockne, Joannie, Patrick, Yu-Na to name a few. Once again, I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth or to turn a post of mine into something it is not.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Tigger - That's what I say. Figure Skating from wherever should be loved and respected. I continually see new talent everywhere and from every continent. That black kid from the RSA has a lot of potential, and it's good to see the Mexican skaters really improving.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
yes watching Brian's reaction as she was skating was great. He'd be a coach I would send my kid to, he really cares! :yes:
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
Just a genuine question but what have you actually tried to do anything about it? I hear people say this a lot but I wonder if they have actually tried to do anything except complain about it on a message board?
I have many many gripes with the COP but honestly i don't see the ISU no matter how much pressure they come under getting rid of COP and going back to 6.0. My take on it is that the COP is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it could be fixed. Problem is that i don't know the ins and outs of it well enough to really come up with fixes, unlike people like gkelly who have spent an awful lot of time digesting all of the rules and then thinking about the best way to fix it.
Obviously things can be done to make the ISU listen (otherwise where did the deductions for wrong edge take offs suddenly appear from?) i just wouldn't know where to start to try.
And for the record i can honestly say that the for of my issues with the COP the only thing i do about it is ***** on a message board
Ant
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2007
Yummy, protocols! Kim got an edge warning on the Flip, the judges ignored it though...
Fumie got finally called on that Lutz, with a real edge call. I guess the controller thought: after the Japanese judges called her on it at home, we can call her on it in competition.
Czisny got hit with a downgrade on the 3 Flip.
Fumie got finally called on that Lutz, with a real edge call. I guess the controller thought: after the Japanese judges called her on it at home, we can call her on it in competition.
Czisny got hit with a downgrade on the 3 Flip.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2009
Guys, when I wrote my first post here my intention wasn't starting the discussion about the actual rules. I just wanted to point some careless criticism than can't be applied to the people who are trying to do their best. Sometimes things can't be done perfectly.
Particle Man
The judges have a problem that they must give a gold medal to someone. As I can see, what matters the most right now is technical elements... speaking about artistry they always try to give high marks and that's a wise decision.
Tigger
Personally I found last night's SP very interesting... I understand that it may be tiring to see the same elements. Sure CoP is not perfect. Maybe they should start to give some bonus points for rare and different elements. I hope they'll do this after seeing how much disappointment is caused by the actual system.
But skating is a sport in the first place...
By the way, speaking about Caroline... Maybe right now she can't make her way to the podium, but she has only 16 years. When she'll be the same age as Yuna and Mao she may become a skater of the same or better level than them.
Particle Man
Indeed is subjective. The problem is that some people may see a certain program very boring, while others find it exciting.
The judges have a problem that they must give a gold medal to someone. As I can see, what matters the most right now is technical elements... speaking about artistry they always try to give high marks and that's a wise decision.
That was some irony. Hockey may be an art in some way, of course
Tigger
But artistry and technical elements can't be judged equally. This is obvious.
Personally I found last night's SP very interesting... I understand that it may be tiring to see the same elements. Sure CoP is not perfect. Maybe they should start to give some bonus points for rare and different elements. I hope they'll do this after seeing how much disappointment is caused by the actual system.
But skating is a sport in the first place...
By the way, speaking about Caroline... Maybe right now she can't make her way to the podium, but she has only 16 years. When she'll be the same age as Yuna and Mao she may become a skater of the same or better level than them.
Totally. I tried that position in my room and hurt myself badly.
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