Making more creative spins?

[Supernovaimplosion]

One thing I've noticed in figure is that a lot of skaters tend to do the same spins. This is particularly evident in the ladies short program, where at the the 2021 world 7 of the top 10 did a layback spin, flying camel spin, and a combination spin. This makes sense, as those spins have the most base value for the spin requirements in the short program. Women tend to do FCSp in the FS too, even though there are other spins with the same base value, likely because they train it anyway.
I'm not sure about other disciplines, but one thing I do find sort of interesting is that change foot spins in one position are rarely seen in women's skating, but are often seen in men's. This is likely due to the SP requirements.
Do you think we see too much of the same spins?
Another discussion is should spins be WORTH more? If a skater is better at spinning than jumping, should they have a chance to play to their strengths?
How can spinning be more creative? Allowing multi-foot combination spins? Tweaking the BV? Doing it like in rhythmic gymnastics where every rotation is worth a certain amount of points? Changing the requirements every year? I dunno, let me know what you think.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

One of the drawbacks with the scoring system is that skaters aren't incentivized to innovate because the elements have to showcase skills from an existing set of features to earn high scores. I appreciate skaters who go above and beyond with elements like spins, because many do these elements just well enough to get the highest level. Liza and her spins come to mind for the latter.

 

[mrrice]

One of the drawbacks with the scoring system is that skaters aren't incentivized to innovate because the elements have to showcase skills from an existing set of features to earn high scores. I appreciate skaters who go above and beyond with elements like spins, because many do these elements just well enough to get the highest level. Liza and her spins come to mind for the latter.

Exactly, I remember Dick Button raving over Lucinda Rhu's spins. He commented about how difficult they were and lamented that she wouldn't get a huge score because spins are not given a high enough value in the scoring system.

 

[gkelly]

Is the goal to get each individual skater to show a wider variety of types of spins, or a wider variety of features?

Or for the field as a whole to show more variety, even if each individual has their own favorite variations they always use?

To encourage more envelope pushing in terms of difficulty? or variety? or quality?

To allow rare skaters whose spinning ability is far ahead of the average elite level to rack up enough more points for spins to gain a competitive advantage in the same way that quad jumpers can rack up more than those who can only do triples?

Or, although you didn't mention it explicitly, to get spins to be more integrated into the artistic aspects of the programs?

Different strategies would be needed to achieve each of the above goals. In some cases those strategies might be mutually exclusive, so it's important to be clear which goals are more important. In other cases, they could be complementary.

One approach that might be useful toward developing more variety and difficulty in the field at large would be to have at least two levels of spin features: features that any competitive skater should be able to achieve if they make the effort to train spins hard enough, and features that will set apart the great spinners from the merely good.

For the former, that might mean bringing back some features that were considered for levels in the first few years of IJS and later dropped because they were well within reach of all the elite skaters.

And for the latter, features that were initially included in the list but later dropped because no one ever did them, or that are still there but hardly ever used, or that were never explicitly described as potential features and therefore never developed, but that could be imagined and encouraged by adding them to the list.

And then make the latter features worth at least twice as much as the former.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Exactly, I remember Dick Button raving over Lucinda Rhu's spins. He commented about how difficult they were and lamented that she wouldn't get a huge score because spins are not given a high enough value in the scoring system.

She was great. She was underscored on the presentation mark in my opinion, but under 6.0 both marks were tied to how well a skater did the jumps.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Is the goal to get each individual skater to show a wider variety of types of spins, or a wider variety of features?

Or for the field as a whole to show more variety, even if each individual has their own favorite variations they always use?

To encourage more envelope pushing in terms of difficulty? or variety? or quality?

To allow rare skaters whose spinning ability is far ahead of the average elite level to rack up enough more points for spins to gain a competitive advantage in the same way that quad jumpers can rack up more than those who can only do triples?

Or, although you didn't mention it explicitly, to get spins to be more integrated into the artistic aspects of the programs?

Different strategies would be needed to achieve each of the above goals. In some cases those strategies might be mutually exclusive, so it's important to be clear which goals are more important. In other cases, they could be complementary.

One approach that might be useful toward developing more variety and difficulty in the field at large would be to have at least two levels of spin features: features that any competitive skater should be able to achieve if they make the effort to train spins hard enough, and features that will set apart the great spinners from the merely good.

For the former, that might mean bringing back some features that were considered for levels in the first few years of IJS and later dropped because they were well within reach of all the elite skaters.

And for the latter, features that were initially included in the list but later dropped because no one ever did them, or that are still there but hardly ever used, or that were never explicitly described as potential features and therefore never developed, but that could be imagined and encouraged by adding them to the list.

And then make the latter features worth at least twice as much as the former.

Haha, when I wrote this I didn't know what I meant. I guess I mean in diversity in the field as a whole, and rewarding good spinners more. GOE isn't enough.
For example, Yulia did an I-spin with her leg behind her back once, but she didn't get anything for it, just a level. And there are much easier was to get the same level. Not that flexibility is the end all be all, but its an example.
I like the idea that there should be harder and easier levels. Maybe spins shouldn't have a level cap, still keeping the one of the same level per program idea. But things might be crazy then.
I also think levels need to be changed every once in a while as the sport advances.

 

[lappo]

Years ago, they should have given the skaters the chance to name spins with new and creative features with their names (and also other elements) as it is in artistic gymnastic. I also would love to see more variety and creativity: for example I highly appreciated the fact that Kamila Valieva is training to spin in both directions (something that is currently done in competition only - I think - by Satoko Miyahara). It must be a lot of training for a feature that, for all the complexity, is not worth that much. Kudos to her and all other spin innovators!

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Years ago, they should have given the skaters the chance to name spins with new and creative features with their names (and also other elements) as it is in artistic gymnastic. I also would love to see more variety and creativity: for example I highly appreciated the fact that Kamila Valieva is training to spin in both directions (something that is currently done in competition only - I think - by Satoko Miyahara). It must be a lot of training for a feature that, for all the complexity, is not worth that much. Kudos to her and all other spin innovators!

I appreciate how much work Kamila puts into her spins, even though jumps are so much more. If they did increase spin worth, she would still win, lol.

 

[gliese]

I agree that the less common ways to get features should be worth more. Then people would actually do them.

I might actually consider training spins both ways if it was worth more than just hopping in the middle of a spin which is wayyy easier.

 

[moonvine]

Personally I miss a simple beautiful layback spin. No changes of feet or position or other stuff to get points. Which is why I’ll never see one again.

 

[gkelly]

Possible 3 stages of difficulty, specifically for spinning in both directions:

Easy: Spinning in opposite direction in simple upright position

Medium: Spinning in opposite direction in simple camel, sit, or layback position

Difficult: Spinning in opposite direction in difficult variation; change of direction on the same foot without touching the other foot to the ice (this would count even in simple upright)


There could also be stages of difficult variations:

Easy: Positions that require physical strength or flexibility OR have an effect on the balance of the main body core

Medium: Positions that require physical strength or flexibility AND have an effect on the balance of the main body core; OR positions that require extreme strength or flexibility; OR positions that have an extreme effect on the balance of the main body core

Difficult: Positions that require extreme strength or flexibility AND have an extreme effect on the balance of the main body core

If 8 revolutions in one position is worth a feature, maybe holding the same position for 16 revolutions should be worth 2 features


Of course, the more options that tech panels have to consider, the longer the reviews will take.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Personally I miss a simple beautiful layback spin. No changes of feet or position or other stuff to get points. Which is why I’ll never see one again.

I'd like to see a change foot Layback spin I heard Irina Slutskaya used to do a change foot biellman, which is really cool.

 

[ladyjane]

Irina did. It was kind of a signature move and really spectacular.

 

[gliese]

If 8 revolutions in one position is worth a feature, maybe holding the same position for 16 revolutions should be worth 2 features

I like this. We don't see many spins with held positions anymore.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Irina did. It was kind of a signature move and really spectacular.

Do you know of a video of it?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Do you know of a video of it?

Here you go: https://youtu.be/3KDkLf71HNs?t=153
In her exhibition at 2000 Worlds.

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Here you go: https://youtu.be/3KDkLf71HNs?t=153
In her exhibition at 2000 Worlds.

Thanks, very cool