Men Free Skates

[Bluebonnet]

Can you please specifically point out exactly what movement Daisuke repeats again and again? I am genuinely curious about this....

Too many. Even his SP and his LP of this year are similar. He used his wrists the same way in both programs. He touched his head and face so very often. Made him look like that was the only way he knew to express music.

To be honest, I think Takahashi was wonderful but he was overated in artistry by his fans.

 

[treeloving]

Or he may become Shibs #2, both winning Bronze at their 1st World and deem to have high potential but you know the rest, entirely possible as well... To be honest, I think the latter is more likely than the former, we shall see.

Hahah No surprise at all, as you also think he has a long way to go till he get a world spot on Japan team next year and even after the way he skated his FS at national with Oda get injured you still doubt his place on world team.

Not to mention how you say he is cheesy because of his nice interview attitude.

It seems that least this year, time prove that you are wrong (on the world spot at least).

Of course, not thing is certain, even as his fan I do not see him be challenge to Chan score very soon; but onething I know is he will keep improving and get better.

We shall see.

 

[evangeline]

Too many. Even his SP and his LP of this year are similar. He used his wrists the same way in both programs. He touched his head and face so very often. Made him look like that was the only way he knew to express music.

How are In the Garden of Souls and Blues for Klook in any way similar? The former is intense and sharp, while the latter is bluesy and languid with a touch of sensuality.

Can you give me an example of a skater who displays a wide range of wrist motions throughout different programs? Just wondering.

I admit that Daisuke does touch his face a lot (I blame Morozov, LOL), but what about all those different things he does? The moment where he leans back and grabs his knee in the short, how he follows the loop in his straightline steps in the short with a mirror loop of his head, those crouchy steps he does in and out of the triple lutz....these movements he does are stylistically and choreographically very different from ANYTHING he does in Blues for Klook. In fact, these movements have never been seen in any of his past programs either. Or just watch how Daisuke moves his body in his step sequences in his SP vs his step sequences in his LP. Even without the music you can tell they are from 2 stylistically different programs......

 

[Violet Bliss]

Re Hanyu, I think he's been overhyped but he is the real deal, a rare phenom. I have been interested in him for over a year since I was first intrigued by something he said involving Patrick Chan. I wish I could read more of his interviews to confirm my impression. My feeling has been that he has a different way of learning, by feeling, instincts, absorption, and by "becoming" his idols/model to pattern after, including Plushenko, Weir, and even Chan. I knew he had the potential to acquire very quickly the best of each of these skaters of different styles and strengths. He has proven my suspicion right with his rapid acquisitions of skills and rise in the skating world. The kid simply has a different mental mode that enables him to learn extremely quickly, including competitiveness. Over this season, he kept getting better and better at each competition, and winning Worlds Bronze didn't surprise me.

I have two main concerns for him, both physical. The first is his asthma and stamina issue. But even that he seems to have overcome somehow over the season. Incredible. Second is how his physical growth will affect him, because he still has the body of a boy, with a big head much like young Patrick. Of the best quad jumpers, those to whom quads seem to come easily and naturally, he is one of the slender build type like Plushenko and Reynolds who can rotate very fast. (We also have the power type like Stojko and KVDP, and the compact technical type with power like Yagudin and Chan.) As Hanyu grows, he will likely lose some of the flexibility he has now and I don't know if he will need to adjust his jumping techniques to his new mature body. His development is very fascinating to watch.

As to Chan vs Hanyu, Chan is also a fast learning phenom albeit very differently and very consciously. Chan is quite a bit ahead in all areas of PCS and more steady in his big jumps but Hanyu is catching up in competition consistency with experience. As Chan is not static but is still improving in a very fast pace, refining the details of different aspects of skating from the basics he has mastered, it's hard to tell when Hanyu will catch up with him, especially if they both reach a high level when maturity and sophistication matter.

 

[treeloving]

I have two main concerns for him, both physical. The first is his asthma and stamina issue. But even that he seems to have overcome somehow over the season. Incredible. Second is how his physical growth will affect him, because he still has the body of a boy, with a big head much like young Patrick. Of the best quad jumpers, those to whom quads seem to come easily and naturally, he is one of the slender build type like Plushenko and Reynolds who can rotate very fast. (We also have the power type like Stojko and KVDP, and the compact technical type with power like Yagudin and Chan.) As Hanyu grows, he will likely lose some of the flexibility he has now and I don't know if he will need to adjust his jumping techniques to his new mature body. His development is very fascinating to watch.

Apart from what you mentioned, I also wish he take a ballet class and improve his line. Even I love his skating I can't help but think that skater like Gashinski (who I prefer less) has much better line and keep his body more straight than Yuzuru.

If he can improve in this aspect, I will

 

[Violet Bliss]

Apart from what you mentioned, I also wish he take a ballet class and improve his line. Even I love his skating I can't help but think that skater like Gashinski (who I prefer less) has much better line and keep his body more straight than Yuzuru.

If he can improve in this aspect, I will

I include that in the PCS aspects he still has a lot to improve.

 

[Bluebonnet]

How are In the Garden of Souls and Blues for Klook in any way similar? The former is intense and sharp, while the latter is bluesy and languid with a touch of sensuality.

Can you give me an example of a skater who displays a wide range of wrist motions throughout different programs? Just wondering.

I admit that Daisuke does touch his face a lot (I blame Morozov, LOL), but what about all those different things he does? The moment where he leans back and grabs his knee in the short, how he follows the loop in his straightline steps in the short with a mirror loop of his head, those crouchy steps he does in and out of the triple lutz....these movements he does are stylistically and choreographically very different from ANYTHING he does in Blues for Klook. In fact, these movements have never been seen in any of his past programs either. Or just watch how Daisuke moves his body in his step sequences in his SP vs his step sequences in his LP. Even without the music you can tell they are from 2 stylistically different programs......

His SP and LP rythem were different but the approach were quite similar. I hate his fingers and wrists in both programs, especially in SP. Given the type of music in LP, I think his style fit in quite well. I love that grab-knee movement in SP. But over all, I like his LP a lot more than his SP.

Every skater has their own style. If you like an example, Jeremy Abbott has wide ranged artistic abilities over any current male skaters. He has completely different wrist motions according to the programs he skated.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Can someone tell me if Hanyu is right or left handed? I ask because he seems to learn with the right brain.

 

[Leonardo]

Ten years from now, I'm sure people will be watching Yuzuru's and Dai's FS performances, not Chan's uninspiring, boring performance with a "freaky mistake"(Chan's personal mark in his programs according to him).

This is the guy who performed better, with his soul, his heart, with true artistry and difficulty; He should've won a gold medal for that performance alone, a REAL champion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64QdXaZsUxs&feature=relmfu

All I have to say is, unfortunately, in many subjective sports, judging is corrupt/incompetent to a point that even when the favorite makes the most obvious mistakes over and over again, he/she always wins, despite how the others performs. I've been trying to post all the possible facts about this: Dai's 6 points advantage in base value, the pcs marks, opinions of many other people, but COP freaks, some fans and people who believe judges are always right always come to tell that fans, crowd, many figure skating experts, most commentators and 90 per cent of the FS world are wrong, everybody is blind, that we have to accept the victory of the boring champion who always make mistakes and wins. And we have to accept it because the judges (who are obviously overscoring him) say so, and he should get 10s for artistic components when he doesn't make mistakes (LOL). The same judges who give Plushenko 8.50 in transitions. The same judges who think Evan Lysacek is a great artist. The same judges who cheated in Salt Like City (it obviously wasn't the only case). Please.

Ps. I love how in almost every 2012 worlds FS Patrick Chan's Youtube video there are about 130 dislikes and 30 likes. Daisuke's = 230 likes, 0 dislikes. I think they are all Dai's fans. Oh wait! They are probably just dumb fans who know NOTHING about the sport and shouldn't be heard. Leave the sacred knowledge to the judges and some chan's supporters (and the gold medals, of course!).

 

[evangeline]

His SP and LP rythem were different but the approach were quite similar. I hate his fingers and wrists in both programs, especially in SP. Given the type of music in LP, I think his style fit in quite well. I love that grab-knee movement in SP. But over all, I like his LP a lot more than his SP.

Wait....I don't entirely understand. Allow me to break down your previous post.

Premise: you don't like how Daisuke uses his fingers and wrists in both his SP and LP (especially his SP)

Premise: you like Daisuke's LP more than his SP overall despite your affinity towards the grab-knee movement in the SP

Conclusion: therefore, Daisuke's SP and LP are similar, and have similar movements within them, as well as a similar approach

I don't entirely follow what you're trying to say. I don't see how your preferences regarding Daisuke's fingers and wrists necessarily means that he repeats the same movements over and over again, which was the original topic at hand.

Moreover, I was very curious to see what you meant, so I just re-watched both of Daisuke's programs specifically watching how he used his hands throughout the program (I admit, I've certainly never done it before so it was actually kind of weird, I even specifically watched HD videos of both). To me, he holds his wrists and fingers much more loosely and fluidly in Blues for Klook as opposed to In the Garden of Souls, which makes sense given the languid and bluesy nature of the former. Just watch his hands during the step sequences especially. Or during the opening choreography--in the SP, his wrists and fingers tend to be more angular, extended, mirroring the sharper music, while in Blues for Klook, his hands there are MUCH more fluid, relaxed, even slightly floppy. Also, Daisuke does that swishy rolling movement/thing with his wrists quite a few times in Blues, but not in the SP. So.....basically, I completely disagree with your statement that he uses his fingers and wrists similarly in both programs.

 

[Leonardo]

But I have to say, If Patrick starts to perform programs like his Exhibition, he will deserve every artistic mark he gets, that was simply GORGEOUS!! With the right program (Jeffrey for choreo, please!!) and LESS mistakes, he will be a real real and deserving champion (if yuzuru doesn't beat him)!!

 

[skatinginbc]

Skating Skill is the foundation in PCS and it has been absorbed by every single category in PCS. So maybe the technical portion of CoP is not really 70%. It is over 70%.

When Chan is skating, SS is the foundation of PCS. When Alena or another Mozorov's student is skating, SS takes a backseat. PCS is simply a black box that hides wheeling and dealing behind the scenes, and the five categories are simply five different ways to make excuses for the judges' favorites.
If we take the position that SS is the foundation of PCS, then the ISU should adopt this method: PCS = Skating Skill × Presentation. Under the current rules, the judges should have treated the five categories as independent as prescribed by the formula: PCS = SS + TR + PE + CH + IN.

Very likely if without those problems, his CH and IN would have been having some 10s. So yes, it has been reduced to reflect it.

Well, these are the scores he received at 4CC with a nearly clean skate: PE 9.04, CH 9.11, IN 8.96. And these are the scores he received at the Worlds with more visible errors including a fall: PE 9.00, CH 8.96, IN 9.21. Has Chan improved significantly in his presentation since 4CC? I bet, in terms of giving more of his emotionless poker face. Poker Face = ???

I had this same reaction to Patrick's joke. Does he not care about skating clean?...It's a little hard to wrap my head around the idea of a great champion who is content to fall at least once in almost every comp.

:agree: Some people however think that having quads is sportsmanship but having perfect execution is not. Execution is a quality befitting the ladies' skating. The artistry in men's figure skating is measured by the degree of redness on one's burning butts, an indicator of bravery and manliness.

Now, this is in my opinion a perfect balance between artistry and technical difficulty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKX--skJTI. Who is that skater???? I would give him an Olympic medal right now. :thumbsup: So beautifully skated, with heart and soul!!! Did the audience give him a standing ovation? What a brilliant skater!!! If Michel Kwan is the goddess of the ladies, that skater is the god of the men.

 

[Olympia]

Wow, that is breathtaking. The choreography is a brilliant use of the music, and Patrick conveys every subtlety of it. The command on those flowing moves, and the musical expressiveness. If this is what's in Patrick's future, we're in for some splendid skating.

 

[Mathman]

^ I totally agree. That performance is worth 9s and 10s. If Patrick skated like that, no one would ever complain about undeserved marks and inflated scoring.

Unfortunately, the CoP does not permit it. :disagree:

 

[seniorita]

Skaters happen to skate late after the ice resurface in all disciplines, not only Chan did he skate in worst ice condintion because he was last in his group. Of course he wouldnt blame that for his fall, otherwise everybody who was last before the resurface should complain the same. And not just in this competition, it happens everywhere.
Hanyu fell but he didnt win Daisuke on PCS, he had super TES to count on.

IP I read that gkelly explained you the entrance of Chan's quad and I want to read it cause I m always wondering how he enters the quad so non - chalantly, he doesnt look like needing big setup and ultra speed. Do you have a link of her post?

 

[Mathman]

Very likely if without those problems, his CH and IN would have been having some 10s. So yes, it has been reduced to reflect it.

Dee, look at Patrick's exhibition skate. That is what a nine or ten in interpretation and choreography looks like. Note in particular how the jumps serve the choreography. To say that Patrick's competitive program deserves a ten in musical interpretation just turns any reasonable definition of that term on its head.

Skating Skill is the foundation in PCS and it has been absorbed by every single category in PCS. So maybe the technical portion of CoP is not really 70%. It is over 70%, as we often see that P/E, CH, and IN are being bounded with TES and SS.

I have often wondered what would be the dominating PCS category if the components just had a different order and, for example, P/E was the first component.

That was actually tested by the ISU. They had different judging panels scoring the event with PCSs in a different order, and sure enough it came out just like that. Whichever score was listed first dominated all five.

 

[skatinginbc]

They had different judging panels scoring the event with PCSs in a different order, and sure enough it came out just like that. Whichever score was listed first dominated all five.

That's called "halo effect" in the psychometric literature.

 

[Boeing787]

Ps. I love how in almost every 2012 worlds FS Patrick Chan's Youtube video there are about 130 dislikes and 30 likes. Daisuke's = 230 likes, 0 dislikes. I think they are all Dai's fans. Oh wait! They are probably just dumb fans who know NOTHING about the sport and shouldn't be heard. Leave the sacred knowledge to the judges and some chan's supporters (and the gold medals, of course!).

Agreed.:yay:

 

[Boeing787]

But I have to say, If Patrick starts to perform programs like his Exhibition, he will deserve every artistic mark he gets, that was simply GORGEOUS!! With the right program (Jeffrey for choreo, please!!) and LESS mistakes, he will be a real real and deserving champion (if yuzuru doesn't beat him)!!

Yeah, only he will lose in TES. Patrick wins by the rules. Period.

 

[Buttercup]

That was actually tested by the ISU. They had different judging panels scoring the event with PCSs in a different order, and sure enough it came out just like that. Whichever score was listed first dominated all five.

They should have each judge rate the PCS in different order and switch it up for each skater. Don't tell me they can't sort out the software to allow for this.

Actually, this is something that's often done in creativity research - the people rating the creative product are supposed to evaluate the dimensions in different order. It also help if the products aren't viewed in the same order, but that's not feasible for skating performances.

I am very proud that this is my only post about the men's event (which I have many opinions about; but I'll keep those to myself).