Men - Long Program

[FTnoona]

Sorry guys totally irrelevant to the discussion you guys are having right now about CoP. I always thought that Daisuke had a problem with going on the outside edge for his flip? He got called for that at NHK, but now in the FS at Skate America he is dinged on both his lutz for being on the wrong edge. Nobu got edge calls on their lutz too. So he has problems on both jumps?

 

[burntBREAD]

Sorry guys totally irrelevant to the discussion you guys are having right now about CoP. I always thought that Daisuke had a problem with going on the outside edge for his flip? He got called for that at NHK, but now in the FS at Skate America he is dinged on both his lutz for being on the wrong edge. Nobu got edge calls on their lutz too. So he has problems on both jumps?

Dai has a problem with a flutz, I've never seen him with a lip, so that might just have been odd judging at NHK. Oda's lutz edge is always in the gray area--it would be an "!" from past rules, so it could be called "e" this time, maybe not.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Something being in place for a long time does not warrant its rightfulness. One may argue that Oda is stupid for his inability to learn from prior mistakes. But IQ should not be a "critical" element of the scoring system aimed to measure skating abilities. I said "critical" because there have been many cases where one lost a medal due to stupidity. A good scoring system should minimize (and I understand it is impossible to totally eliminate) such interfering factors. At least, it should not be so critical enough that one would lose his gold multiple times for being stupid.

The rule is a rule whether it's a stupid rule or not. You want to be in the game, you'd better follow the rule until it changes.

 

[chloepoco]

For those who are curious about where Armin Mahbanoozadeh's great musicality comes from -- just check out his amazing piano playing skills, including his dedications to Mao Asada!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrNimra#p/u/2/cpgbWcDwWrE

Love it!

What a talented young man!! And how sweet is that--playing a tribute to Mao?

 

[Mrs. P]

TES

Armin Mahbanoozadeh, USA – 73.62
Kevin Van Der Perren — 69.87
Daisuke Murakami, JPN — 68.83
Nobunari Oda, JPN – 68.17
Daisuke Takahashi, JPN – 64.95
Shawn Sawyer, CAN – 63.10
Stephen Carriere, USA — 62.28
Nan Song, CHN — 60.55
Adrian Schultheiss, SWE — 60.21
Adam Rippon, USA — 57.94
Denis Ten, KAZ — 54.69
Viktor Pfeifer, AUT — 53.02

GOE

Armin Mahbanoozadeh, USA – 8.70
Nan Song, CHN — 5.09
Daisuke Takahashi, JPN – 3.72
Daisuke Murakami, JPN — 2.61
Shawn Sawyer, CAN – 2.3
Kevin Van Der Perren — 1.94
Nobunari Oda, JPN – 1.56
Adam Rippon, USA — 1.28
Adrian Schultheiss, SWE — .81
Stephen Carriere, USA — 0.36
Viktor Pfeifer, AUT — -2.35
Denis Ten, KAZ — -10.10

Some interesting numbers here...

 

[museksk8r]

^ Armin represents USA, not Japan.

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks! It's corrected! Sorry bout that.

 

[skatinginbc]

janetfan, I'll do as you request after the ladies free tonight.

skatingbc, your assertion was that it's not a "thinking-on-your-feet" competition is what my response was positioned toward

a) A fourth combo is defined as an illegal element, the same as a backflip.
b) Doing an illegal element incurs a penalty.
c) The question then becomes, should someone who does an illegal element receive the exact same credit as someone who doesn't? If you believe so, then yes - simply removing the the 2-2 of the 3-2-2 is fair. IF not, and you think an illegal element should incur an actual penalty, then the question becomes how much?

First of all, I am not skatingbc, who is a different poster unrelated to me. My handle is skatinginbc, just in case you overlooked it.
Secondly, you sort of lost me, to be frank. So I am going to answer point by point.

a) A fourth combo is an illegal element.
It depends. I think it should receive no credit if done outside the maximum jumping passes. Should it receive penalty? Oh, Yes, as much as, but no more than, doing too many crossovers, spins or step sequences. By the way, is there a specified penalty concerning too many spins or step sequences?

b) Doing an illegal element incurs a penalty.
I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about which element should be considered "illegal". As far as a fourth combo goes, if it is done within maximum jumping passes, why discredit the whole thing? A 3luz is still a 3luz, no matter as a single jump or as the first jump of a combo. Or do they require completely different skills?

c) Should someone who does an illegal element receive the exact same credit as someone who doesn't?
Again, it depends on what constitues "illegal". I would like to see the first jump of a fourth combo treated as a single jump and the rest as the jump exit, which, if done well, could receive a bullet for GOE.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

My apologies to the misidentified handle. For what it's worth, you've lost me with your repsonse, so insert shrug here. I'm not really sure how a 2-2 can be considered part of the jump exit, or why it should, for starters.

 

[Mathman]

Plan your skate, skate your plan.

Oda should skate the program that he prepared and practiced all season. If he misses an element, OK, on to the next. That way the problem of extra combos and the like will never come up.

 

[Mathman]

CoP question. If you do a four-jump combination, how is it scored? Isn't it scored as a three-jump combo with no credit given to the fourth jump?

 

[oakl0008]

Hi everyone. I was just reading Tony Wheeler's blog on the men's long program and he is the only one mentioning that Shawn Sawyer broke the same combination rule as Oda did but didn't get penalized for it as Oda did.

http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/11/2010-skate-america-men-thank-you-armin.html

Can anyone weigh in on this? Are Wheeler's points valid??

 

[sequinsgalore]

Hi everyone. I was just reading Tony Wheeler's blog on the men's long program and he is the only one mentioning that Shawn Sawyer broke the same combination rule as Oda did but didn't get penalized for it as Oda did.

http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/11/2010-skate-america-men-thank-you-armin.html

Can anyone weigh in on this? Are Wheeler's points valid??

Sawyer's 2F+1Lo+3Lo+SEQ is counted as a jump sequence, not at three jump combo. In the rules, if you do a sequence consisting of more than two jumps, only the two highest scoring jumps will count (in this example: (1.8+5.1)*0.8*1.1 = 6.07). In order to use the half-loop (1Lo) as a part of a three jump combo, the third jump has to be either the flip or salchow. All other jump requires you to use extra connectiong steps in order to take off from the correct edge, therefore making it a sequence. At least, that's how I interpret it.

_________________________________________________________
Visit the danish figure skating blog www.sequinsgalore.blogspot.com

 

[Tony Wheeler]

sequinsgalore has it right. I think that whole rule is weird, and I had an international judge come across my Twitter post on the subject and he explained it to me. Sorry about that.

 

[carignan]

A lovely picture from Daisuke Murakami.

http://twitpic.com/36zyum

They all used to be Morozov's pupils.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Shawn Sawyer's LP has the best choreography of the season thus far. Such a creative program. The way he does a 3Loop literally out of nowhere, from almost a standstill, is fantastic. His spiral and cantilever are brilliant highlights. He has more versatile spin positions than any other male out there today and those spins are incorporated into the program very well. The "choreography footwork sequence" actually works with the choreography and makes great time across the ice. The program builds throughout and has a VIEWPOINT.

I think he should have been ranked 2nd in the LP (with Oda 1st, because of being ahead by a mile on the jumps...his 3Sal being worth 0 points was ridiculous). Shawn's 3Axel did not deserve to be downgraded and, IMO, he should have received the highest overall PCS of the night. I find it absurd that such an inventive program and energetic performance without any major breaks in flow can receive a 66 for PCS and then Takahashi receives a personal best of 85 for his jumbled effort and Oda receives 79 for a rather monotone performance/program.

RE: Shawn Sawyer's 3Flip+half-loop+3Loop sequence - I've no idea why he attempts that. Perhaps he thought putting the half-loop inbetween would make it count as a combination with the new rules (given that at NHK he didn't do a 3-jump combination at the end like he did at Skate America...it seems like maybe he found out after NHK and didn't want to have to focus on changing the choreography before Skate America). He should do a 3Flip+half-loop+3Sal combination. This would be the best jump layout for him:

3Axel
3Flip+3Toe
3Lutz
2Axel (with the tano variation)
---------
3Loop
3Flip+half-loop+3Sal
3Loop+2Loop
2Axel