Men - Short Program

[adoreyuna]

Kevin REYNOLDS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWRulbZL1zw&

Chan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpbvz_cU62s&

Alban PREAUBERT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5P32zMJ0ug&

 

[skatinginbc]

Did Chan really fall on a required footwork sequence or did he fall on a second footwork sequence now reguaded as part of the transition? Don't laugh at my stupid question. They changed the rules so often, and I am all confused. By the way, Mao's low scores at NHK was due to her popped jump and under-rotations, which were all killer mistakes in the current scoring system. Her PCS was still high given her mistakes. Chan rotated the jumps, so he received the scores. There was no birthday gift in play.

 

[wallylutz]

I totally agree. The short program only has, what, three jumps, three spins, and one footwork sequence? The jumps are the most important, he fell on two, and then he fell on the all-important footwork section

And he is not in 1st but 4th in a small crowd and about 8 points behind the leader. Had this take place @ Worlds, chances are he would be outside top 12 easily.

 

[FTnoona]

Number of falls is irrelevant with respect to Skating Skills. Someone could fall 6 times yet has amazing SS. But PE should take a hit depending on recovery and etc.

Well that's just my opinion because I am thinking that skating skills should involve your technique for jumps even though that is probably already factored into the GOE for the jumps. I do agree with you that PE should take a hit.

 

[seniorita]

You want 4 toe in SP? then don't complain if things don't go your way

So it is mandatory that if we want a quad in sp we need to witness also 3 falls in the program? Not just a step out, or a turn over, 3 falls. Of course it is good he tried it but it wasn't enough, and this is the short program. Maybe now he can see that a quad and a 3axel in sp is not such easy option and maybe then you dont have strength to do the whole footwork in one foot and a dozen of transitions. Less talented skaters than him in this competition stayed on their feet during the 2.50 minutes with a quad. Nobody accuses the skater for his marks, but the skate was on the level of Mao NHK one. I thought at some point after the 3axel he will stop. If a less known skater skated like this at Worlds would he qualify for the long?

 

[museksk8r]

If a skater skated like this at Worlds would he qualify for the long?

Any other skater wouldn't, but the always grossly over-scored Patrick Chan would . . . you can guarantee that! :scowl:

 

[emma]

Did Chan really fall on a required footwork sequence or did he fall on a second footwork sequence now reguaded as part of the transition? Don't laugh at my stupid question. They changed the rules so often, and I am all confused. By the way, Mao's low scores at NHK was due to her popped jump and under-rotations, which were all killer mistakes in the current scoring system. Her PCS was still high given her mistakes. Chan rotated the jumps, so he received the scores. There was no birthday gift in play.

That's a good question that I hadn't thought of - so maybe with rotating the jumps and completing the required step sequence, he did get quite a few tech points. I still don't like that idea that one can.

That said, I agree with wallylutz (just can't figure out how to insert mulitple quotes right ow) that had this been worlds, he would be much lower in the ranks. also, seniorita, i was quite taken with his one footed foot work turning in both directions and keeping the speed up for what seemed most of the length of the rink - that, to me, is impressive

 

[seniorita]

museksk8r, lol, thats why I edited it!

I know his footwork was impressive thats why i mentioned it, but it looks like he doesnt need a single jump standing straight to score around 60+, if you take off his triple combo. This looks strange.

 

[mishieru07]

Well that's just my opinion because I am thinking that skating skills should involve your technique for jumps even though that is probably already factored into the GOE for the jumps. I do agree with you that PE should take a hit.

People need to look at the rulebook; the ISU has definite criteria on what falls under the various categories for PCS. I'm not sure whether skating skills involves whether jumps are successfully landed, that should be under the TES and maybe PE if the falls distract from the programme.

I think it's tempting to think that just because a skater falls, he/she doesn't deserve a good score because that is what would have happened under 6.0. The new system doesn't quite work that way! (Although I tend to feel that PCS are being abused just like the Artistic Impression mark was but that's another story)

 

[wallylutz]

I've seen people say - including myself - that his performance was affected. To me there was a definite disconnect after the second fall. Others have mentioned that he is not as exceptional on spins as others. And that the spins alone are not good enough to make up for the falls.

Sorry, your description is vague and lacking details. I see what you are saying but your justication is somewhat subjective. I see a definite improvement in how he projects to the audience, which was a weakness of his and that is a significant change, impacting both IN and CH positively. SS and TR are impeccable as usual, though PE deinitely should take a major hit by at least 1.00 point (out of 10) IMO. Is 39 PCS overstated? Historically, his PCS went as high as low 40s. With noticeable improvement in IN and CH but obvious issues in PE, the number itself doesn't mean much. I am unable to find some obvious support for claim re: overscoring that already led to several accusations here including: 1) Blaming the judges of being dirty and 2) Skate Canada of playing politics and 3) questioning why Chen didn't protest the scores implying thereore he is somehow an accomplice. If this is not nasty b/c this is essentially shots taken at the reputation of people / organization concerned (aka. libel), I don't know what this is then.

RE: TES, the protocol will speak for itself and this is generally considered quite objective these days.

 

[skatinginbc]

museksk8r, lol, thats why I edited it!

I know his footwork was impressive thats why i mentioned it, but it looks like he doesnt need a single jump standing straight to score around 60+, if you take off his triple combo. This looks strange.

And I am very happy with it. It is why the sport is called figure skating, not figure jumping. One can maintain a decent standing based on his skating skills alone, but in order to outscore everyone, he has to own the big ticket items (i.e, jumps) as well. I like it this way. I really don't have problems with it.

 

[Tonichelle]

Sorry, your description is vague and lacking details. I see what you are saying but your justication is somewhat subjective. I see a definite improvement in how he projects to the audience, which was a weakness of his and that is a significant change, impacting both IN and CH positively. SS and TR are impeccable as usual, though PE deinitely should take a major hit by at least 1.00 point (out of 10) IMO. Is 39 PCS overstated? Historically, his PCS went as high as low 40s. With noticeable improvement in IN and CH but obvious issues in PE, the number itself doesn't mean much. I am unable to find some obvious support for claim re: overscoring that already led to several accusations here including: 1) Blaming the judges of being dirty and 2) Skate Canada of playing politics and 3) questioning why Chen didn't protest the scores implying thereore he is somehow an accomplice. If this is not nasty b/c this is essentially shots taken at the reputation of people / organization concerned (aka. libel), I don't know what this is then.

RE: TES, the protocol will speak for itself and this is generally considered quite objective these days.

not that I need to defend myself, but my reply was based on the fact that someone was mentioning how Chan didn't seem to think he deserved the scores he got. he's not protesting it, which I think if anyone was that disgusted with where they placed they'd protest - but that only happens when they feel they are too low. I'd love to see a skater come out and say 'I think it's wonky I'm ahead of so and so' instead of just say "well that's how they judged me tonight, thanks guys." We'll never see that, but it'd be cool if it happened.

you're right it's subjective, just like every other event and every other skater. but the same right you have to love it, is the same right the rest of us who don't. I'm a huge fan of the CoP - I don't like how it was judged here. I do think there was gifting going on, and I just don't get Chan enough to understand why that gift is warranted.

 

[seniorita]

And I am very happy with it. It is why the sport is called figure skating, not figure jumping.

this is such an original argument, really never read it again here before.
It is also not called figure falling.
I dont know if the falls should affect the program, but If it was considered a performance, it is like it was played in 4 acts with breaks in between. Did you enjoy it since it is figure skating and not figure jumping?

 

[lisou]

Did Chan really fall on a required footwork sequence or did he fall on a second footwork sequence now reguaded as part of the transition?

The new "choreographical step sequence" is only skated in the FS so Chan did fall on a required step sequence.

 

[Tonichelle]

It is also not called figure falling.

 

[museksk8r]

It is also not called figure falling.
I dont know if the falls should affect the program, but If it was considered a performance, it is like it was played in 4 acts with breaks in between.

I love you!

 

[wallylutz]

So it is mandatory that if we want a quad in sp we need to witness also 3 falls in the program? Not just a step out, or a turn over, 3 falls. Of course it is good he tried it but it wasn't enough, and this is the short program. Maybe now he can see that a quad and a 3axel in sp is not such easy option and maybe then you dont have strength to do the whole footwork in one foot and a dozen of transitions. Less talented skaters than him in this competition stayed on their feet during the 2.50 minutes with a quad. Nobody accuses the skater for his marks, but the skate was on the level of Mao NHK one. I thought at some point after the 3axel he will stop. If a less known skater skated like this at Worlds would he qualify for the long?

It is very difficult to make a case that TES is overmakred these days with good reasons - TES is aoubt 90 percent objective. 3 falls = -3 and the associate negative GOE, if applicable. Alban Preaubert had some pretty serious errors in his short program even though he didn't fall or stumble. Do you know what mistakes he made? Quantitatively, Chen's mistakes on the jumps were: -2 + about -3 X 2 = roughly -8 I am not sure about the last fall in his steps since I missed it. If it wasn't a RE, then no negative GOE, only mandatory deduction -1. Adding all up, a ball park estimate of his mistakes tell me his score would have been about 9 points higher on the TES, putting his scores just ahead of Oda by about 1 point, who didn't do a Quad but everything else more or less equal.

This is only my quick guesstimate using math, not an opinion on the actual result - so far, I am unable to substantiate the cries of outrage here however.

 

[skatinginbc]

this is such an original argument, really never read it again here before.
It is also not called figure falling.
I dont know if the falls should affect the program, but If it was considered a performance, it is like it was played in 4 acts with breaks in between. Did you enjoy it since it is figure skating and not figure jumping?

As mentioned in my previous post, when I watched his 3-fall program live, all I could think of was "WOW". What a good performance!!! I think he is heading toward the right direction and I see the improvement.

 

[oleada]

And I am very happy with it. It is why the sport is called figure skating, not figure jumping. One can maintain a decent standing based on his skating skills alone, but in order to outscore everyone, he has to own the big ticket items (i.e, jumps) as well. I like it this way. I really don't have problems with it.

But how is it showing good skating skills if you're falling in your footwork?

Chan isn't the only skater with good skating skills. Oda & Rippon are both extremely skilled in this department. Did you see the brackets leading up to Oda's 3A? And unlike Chan, he actually landed it. What kind of a performance can you give when you spend half of the time with your butt on the ice? Would any other skater in this competition been held up as massively as Chan was with this turd of a performance?

It's ridiculous that someone can be within gold medal distance when bombing nearly half of the required elements. Especially when others skated so well.

 

[wallylutz]

The new "choreographical step sequence" is only skated in the FS so Chan did fall on a required step sequence.

Not necessarily, a fall could also take place on connecting steps or just plain skating without it being a RE.

I need to see the protocol.