Men's Free Skate

[STL_Blues_fan]

It's a matter of taste, Yana. One doesn't have to love anything but the classics, but to remain in good taste, one should not knock the modernists. I don't like all Glass the same as I don't like all Verdi.

Joe

Joe, I agree 100%. And I never slammed down Glass. Everyone is entitled to their taste. I prefer the classics but I do enjoy 20th century composers such as Khachaturian. On the other hand, I do not enjoy Miakovsky. I do not know a lot about Glass but once again, what I heard did not move me. But that did not give some individuals the right to question my understanding of music!

Yana

 

[Zanzibar]

Regarding Buttle:

I´d put it like this: He might not have medalled in ladies´ event...

Good point and a humorous one too!!!

Regarding Joubert:

It's not that I can't see the flaws in Brian's skating - of course he's not perfect and certainly not an uber 'artiste' in the sense of Weir, Sandhu and probably now Takahashi. But when I look at the present state of figure skating - which is this: It's an Olympic season and the networks cannot be 'bothered' with airing the major competitions - the sport has been relegated to 1-2 weeks after the fact on ESPN.

I see Brian as someone who would be such an amazing ambassador for the sport and who could bring in immense amounts of people around the globe with his charisma, screen-idol good looks, boy-next-door mentality and his overall accessability i.e....the kid is just NOT a diva. He has this big explosive talent that hopefully he'll be able to re-harness and display once again in time for Torino. It's this swarm of ever-changing advisors around him that has left him somewhat distracted on so many fronts and all too often.

Some people (and that includes many at the top of skating) believe that the Olympic gold medal should be a sort of 'lifetime acheivement award' regardless of that skater's particular performance that evening. Others believe it should be completely up for grabs and whoever has the most points rightfully gets the title. There is a third perspective respectfully taking both of those positions into regard, which is: with a sport that is only consistently losing 'draw', it desperately needs a mens and a ladies (I think we've seen that Pairs and Ice Dance just don't count nearly as much with the general public) champion that can have broad, broad appeal - and that includes an ability to interest potential women and men viewers/ticket buyers/supporters from all over the globe. Personally, I think Joubert could be that champion.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Hockeyfan - I forgot that you were there. How badly was Buttle's errors? It seems from the posts that it was a battle between choreographies.

Joe

Not exactly. Joubert really doesn't have any choreography or transitions, which is one of the things that killed him. He's a 6.0 skater. The other is having Stojko-like power, and although not as stocky a line as Stojko, he refuses to move his upper body on the spiral, and while he's got the Guy thing in common with Stojko, he doesn't have the Vision Thing that Stojko had. (Like or dislike it, Stojko tried to fuse martial arts movements with figure skating.) I was hoping that with all of the back movements in Matrix that he might open his mind a little, but he went backwards, in my opinion. Sometimes I think he's channeling Gary Beacom in "I'm Your Man," and not in a good way.

Chiper's is very appealing, and he performs it with joie de vivre.

Buttle has amazing choreography. The first time I saw the program, from the bootlegs at Thornhill, I thought it was a miss, with too many musical cuts. But it didn't feel that way in person, partly because of the way Buttle moves around the ice and uses so much of it. Lots of little things make perfect musical sense once you can see them all. He messed up on a bunch of his jumps, but it was pretty exciting the way he attacked the 4T. He was tentative on both 3A attempts, which is why I think the jumps failed. His 3Lu in combination was amazingly soft, as was one of other jumps in combo (maybe a Sal). He moves very softly across the ice, too, using his blades expertly. I also thought when I first saw it that the final piece of music was too slow, but it's perfect for the flowing footwork sequence.

I suspect that the Schoenberg is having an interesting effect on the judges. On the one hand, it's not the most likeable music, but downgrading it makes one look like a Phillistine, and, on the other hand, it's a welcome palate cleanser to all of those soundtracks and techno pieces.

 

[Mathman]

I see Brian as someone who would be such an amazing ambassador for the sport and who could bring in immense amounts of people around the globe with his charisma, screen-idol good looks, boy-next-door mentality and his overall accessability i.e....the kid is just NOT a diva. He has this big explosive talent that hopefully he'll be able to re-harness and display once again in time for Torino...

Some people (and that includes many at the top of skating) believe that the Olympic gold medal should be a sort of 'lifetime acheivement award' regardless of that skater's particular performance that evening. Others believe it should be completely up for grabs and whoever has the most points rightfully gets the title. There is a third perspective respectfully taking both of those positions into regard, which is: with a sport that is only consistently losing 'draw', it desperately needs a mens and a ladies (I think we've seen that Pairs and Ice Dance just don't count nearly as much with the general public) champion that can have broad, broad appeal - and that includes an ability to interest potential women and men viewers/ticket buyers/supporters from all over the globe. Personally, I think Joubert could be that champion.

All sports are in that predicament. The NBA would love to see the Knicks and the Lakers in the finals every year. But they don't always get what they want (Detroit - San Antonio was a dud at the box office last year.)

A competitive sport absolutely cannot allow the idea to seep into the public perception that they might bend the scoring system because a particular competitor has boyish charm and matinee idol looks.

(That doesn't prevent us from hoping, however, LOL.)

About the quad, I think overall I disagree with Brian and with many others who think the quad is not sufficiently rewarded in the NJS. Not only do you get huge points for a quad (9 point for a quad toe vs. 4 points for a triple, for instance), but it also gives you the chance to load up the rest of your program with triples and combos without running into Zayak problems. If you don't have a quad you have to waste one of your jumping passes with a double Axel, or something of the sort.

IMHO what Brian needs to do in terms of choreography is get off his toes and down into the ice, like Plushenko or Weir or Slutskaya (or even Sandhu).

It would be a crime to waste that smile on a mere silver medalist.

MM

 

[Mathman]

I suspect that the Schoenberg is having an interesting effect on the judges. On the one hand, it's not the most likeable music, but downgrading it makes one look like a Phillistine...

The Emperor's new clothes: if you can't see their fine qualities you are not fit to hold your high psoition at court.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I find opinions on Brian much more interesting to read than on Irina.:thumbsup:

I remember his breakthrough on the Euros skate. He and Stephane were battling it out for third place. Of course, I went with the skater who could flow over the ice more than the one who appeared to me, a jumper only.

Plushenko is a showman. He sells every move to the audience. (not my cup of tea, but I understand it). Plush outskates Brian en toto. The Brian camp came up with improving his style, not all of it worked. Much of it hindered his consistency on jumps (his best asset). I see him in a state of flux on the ice. Sometimes he's looking good, sometimes not so good.

For corrective criticism, I would get him a simple costume with nothing to do with any sound tracks or operas. Let him free skate practice to all sorts of music during the summer months. He will find his own style. Then, get him a choreographer who understands where Brian is at and not try to make him something he is not. JMO. He's like that volcano waiting to erupt.

I know this is not about Stephane but since they made their debuts at the same time, I will be brief. He is a better all-round skater, maybe not as manly as some would want but his skating is on the senior level because he has a style. I'm hoping his gold medal doesn't keep him from continuing to progress.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

I find opinions on Brian much more interesting to read than on Irina.:thumbsup:

I remember his breakthrough on the Euros skate. He and Stephane were battling it out for third place. Of course, I went with the skater who could flow over the ice more than the one who appeared to me, a jumper only.

Plushenko is a showman. He sells every move to the audience. (not my cup of tea, but I understand it). Plush outskates Brian en toto. The Brian camp came up with improving his style, not all of it worked. Much of it hindered his consistency on jumps (his best asset). I see him in a state of flux on the ice. Sometimes he's looking good, sometimes not so good.

For corrective criticism, I would get him a simple costume with nothing to do with any sound tracks or operas. Let him free skate practice to all sorts of music during the summer months. He will find his own style. Then, get him a choreographer who understands where Brian is at and not try to make him something he is not. JMO. He's like that volcano waiting to erupt.

I know this is not about Stephane but since they made their debuts at the same time, I will be brief. He is a better all-round skater, maybe not as manly as some would want but his skating is on the senior level because he has a style. I'm hoping his gold medal doesn't keep him from continuing to progress.

Joe

Great summary Joe. As I was "catching up" reading through this thread, here is what came to mind as a person who is FRUSTRATED with Brian because I really DO want him to find what you describe - his own style executed in his own way.

I will digress briefly. ITA with possible concerns in men's scoring where we can have jumpers with nothing else do well, or worse, the perception that non-jumping men can do better than jumping men. I would submit that we reserve judgement on whether the values for elements are properly assigned (i.e. the values of 4's and 3A's) until we see a few more men actual put something that involves a fair degree of both down on the ice. I don't think Buttle or Joubert put down performances at TEB that to me anyway, were worthy of thinking the NJS has it wrong. (at least not yet)

I think Brian is over-focused on the quad. Of course we only get the "snippets" of his interviews that the press chooses to share with us. But if he is hanging himself up on some form of the notion that "unfair!! quads should be worth more!!" then IMO he is wasting precious energy on one thing, when 14 things are important just to the TES part of the score in men's (LP). And PCS is roughly a whole 'nother half of the battle.

If Brian is going to hang his hat on the importance of the quad, then he needs to bring it on. A 4/2 in the SP is slightly more points than the 3/3 Buttle did, but that's the scoring system. If Brian wants to be the Quad King then that needs to be a 4/3. Brian attempted only 1 quad in the LP, and that was a solo quad, and it was not performed cleanly (neg GOE). Now, if Brian does a 4/3 in the SP, 2 quads (one in combo, preferably in a 4/3), AND does a perfect job on all other jumps, and a just reasonable job on everything else, (to a Buttle type who does a great job on everything else) then maybe he might have a point that jump rewards have gone too low.

But Brian hasn't done that, IMO.

On the other hand, Buttle will have a hard time when the "whole crowd" of top contenders are on hand. With all of them present, it is likely that at least a few of them WILL land nice quads and / or 3A's. I think he has been fortunate to "sqeak by" so far this season with GREAT choreo and other PCS, great non-jump elements, and lot's of jump trouble. I don't think that kind of skating will win Oly gold.

So I hope Oly gold will involve a performance somewhere in the middle of this - the sort of inspiration and creativity that Buttle has brought to the ice so far (sans good jumps), and someone who brings mainly the jumps but some other good stuff too. (and so far this season, I do NOT think that skater is Brian Joubert, no matter what he says about quad points). IMO someone like LI would be a better example.

RGirl - are you channeling me with post lengths???

With tongue firmly in cheek, maybe it would be interesting for skating fandom if we just made a quick switch - put Irina in the Men's division, and Buttle in the Ladies division for this year. (just joking from joke make here, and other jokes from COC!!) I just think a bit of "Buttle Robs Sasha!!" or "Irina Robs Joubert!" would make an interesting diversion from the "same ol' same ol'."



DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

DG - I wont quote your post that would make it all that much longer, lol. (Ya know I don't know what lol means. I think it means, don't take me seriously or lots of love. What does it mean?)

Much of your take on Brian I agree with wholeheartedly. Problem started when he came out of nowhere (even in France). A boy wonder, if you will. Powerful jumper. What to do with him? Too many cooks stirring the broth.

I'm with you on Brian's focus on the quad, and that's a problem with him because he has a good quad toe, but so does Stephane, Lindemann and Sandhu - not to mention Plushenko. Tim had 3 different quads at one time but that's another story. I think the points allotted to the quad are sufficient, and he will earn those points when his quad is completed and again when it is repeated in a combo. He's doing fine on that portion of the scoring. Yet, Jeffrey beat him twice (TEB and Worlds), and Takahashi (SA). Brian should be thinking what is it about Buttle and Takahashi that puts him out of the gold. Neither of them are the type which the judges would 'hold up'.

Brian should be thinking for himself, know what he needs, and find a coach and choreographer to guide him. He was once Plush's biggest threat.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

DG - I wont quote your post that would make it all that much longer, lol. (Ya know I don't know what lol means. I think it means, don't take me seriously or lots of love. What does it mean?)

Joe

For you Joe?? LOL absolutely means Lots Of Love!!

I sort of think you're joshing me about what it usually means, so I will let someone else handle that. And it's not even dirty or anything. Just laugh out loud and enjoy yourself!!

I'm just glad I'm not alone thinking that some of these guys need to focus on PUTTING UP and also SHUTTING UP. Yep. It's a tough sport. So are a bunch of other sports, and so is life, blah blah. I REALLY want to see skaters like Brian and all the others reach their full potential. And to me, "full potential" means doing amazing things with what you do well, and at least striving to be "average among the elite" at the other stuff.

To me, that is the opportunity with COP. Pick your battles in terms of "big point getters" and do your best with everything else.

Lots Of Love,

DG

 

[rain]

Just saw the competition, and I can't say I'm crying foul for Joubert on this one. Nobody came out and skated well. It was a matter of comparing who did the most and what kind of mistakes they made. Yeah, not a good day for Jeff on the jumps, but his choreography, spins and footwork are second to none. Joubert, on the other hand, did some great jumps, but his choreography looks like it belongs in juniors and his footwork and spins leave a lot to be desired. He looked tired and did not keep up with the music at the end. This is just not a program that's going to take him places. For the record, I wouldn't have been crying foul for Jeff if he'd been knocked out of the gold either. I adore Jeff, but sincerely hope he does not win an Olympic medal if he puts down a mediocre skate like this. I want to see the top guys on the podium have great choreography and a great skate.

Got to see Goebel for the first time this season. In a word, awful. He looks incredibly uncomfortable with his new LP and today he didn't have the jumps either. I think it will be a big struggle for him just to make the Olympics, let alone the podium. First thing he needs to do if he wants to get there is to ditch his LP. No matter what the choreography looks like on paper, it's really just not for him.

 

[Rgirl]

Brian's getting raked over the coals for his outspoken words after this event, but I love it......Brian is PISSED the quad isn't getting more points. He's worked his entire career to master it (admittedly they've been a bit more 'slippery' the past year than previously), and grew up admiring the Russian champions that could peel them off successfully over and over and over....

......But then again, I may be one of those rare people who Buttle's skating does absolutely nothing for, but it's not because I'm biased against a Canadian champion as I adore Sandhu.....

Buttle and Joubert ending up 1 and 2, along with Chiper the Romanian 3, who I can't say much about since this is the first time I've seen him (today, 11-27, SP).

As far as I'm concerned, I love that a mix of those who are great at the non-jump elements as well as the components are right up there with the jumpers--though I do want Jeff to get his 3Axel down for criminy's sake.. It reminds me of that "played all the time" pop hit from some years back, "Mambo Number 5":
A little bit of Buttle for the gold,
A little silver Brian, I am told,
Told the judges where to put their lumps
For not giving more points for jumps,
I like Chiper for getting third
Since Romania gets lot of t**ds,
Except for gymnastics and ice dance,
Where they have a he!!uva chance,
It's been long time no Rgirl song,
If we're lucky, next time much more long.
At least Olympic ice has lotsa room,
Hey, boom shacka lacka lacka, boom!

Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

For corrective criticism, I would get him a simple costume with nothing to do with any sound tracks or operas. Let him free skate practice to all sorts of music during the summer months. He will find his own style. Then, get him a choreographer who understands where Brian is at and not try to make him something he is not. JMO. He's like that volcano waiting to erupt.

You old dance and skating trickster, you. What you described is how every great modern dance choreographer since the '60s developed both their own style of moving as well as their choreographic style. One, Laura Dean, told me she either sat or just walked around her studio for a month until one day she started just spinning. Since the 1970s, all her pieces have been built on walking and spinning. Since she's also a musician, she developed the music along with the choreography rather than choreographing to music already scored. I'd say a few of her works are genius.

Anyway, how I wish every coach would allow his/her skater to develop their own style the way you described. Obvously such work can't take up the entire practice time when they're young and still learning technique and skills, but as they master those things, I say more time for improvisation and discovery. I understand Lori did this with Michelle during the summer of '95. Lori put on a lot of different pieces of music and had Michelle just skate however she felt like to each piece. When Lori put on "Salome," lightening struck, as they say.

I can see many top level skaters and up-and-comers benefitting from this: Sasha (a lot); Onda (may be too late); Fumie (wish she had earlier; same with Sasha); Ando (now, as in this summer);; Asada (this summer!); Kimmie (this summer, too!), as well as a number of the men: Joubert, of course; Griazev; ChingJiang Li; Honda (though probably too late for competitive skating), and others.

Look what a slightly different approach but with the same focus has done for Sandhu? He takes dance classes every summer, really concentrated on it this summer, and when he skates well, he's performing with every part of himself and it's all Sandhu. IMO, nothing is more compelling than a highly trained athlete or artist (musician, composer, painter, writer, sculptor, singer, whatever) performing/creating in his/her own "voice" in an unassailable way.

Brilliant note of extremely constructive criticism. If I were you, I'd actually send it to Joubert's official website administrator--s/he must have a contact email with Joubert's manager. I'm dead serious. What's the worst that could happen? He either won't read it or sustain a career-ending injury while using your suggestion--just kidding on the latter. Go for it, Joe! Say something about your background, too, so he knows your not just speaking out of Sandhu's bu** spin.

Rgirl.