Men's FS

[npa]

Guys, i cant understaned - you really enjoy watch Carmen 1000 times?
And i cant understaned, what did you discuss - Lysachek did his jumpes and take his gold without somethis new. Buttle show 4-level elemewntse, lost more, than 10 pointse and take silver - do you really think, that Bradly, Mabee, Abbot can be compering with Lysachek and Buttle? I dont think so

 

[rain]

I havn't seen 4CC yet, but from the reports, Lysacek deserved to win the free by more than 10 point and he was marked accordingly, but he was down by 10 points after the short and Jeffery deserves 8's in his PC. Then he would have won, based not on his free, but on his supirior short, where Lysacek did not have a good skate. Both phases count. And someone needs to tell the judges that the PC marks do not need to be the same across the board. Lysacek deserves higher marks for I&P than SS and C. They're not equal and the marks should reflect that.

I totally and completely agree with you. Actually, I have no problem with Lysacek winning overall, by a small margin, due to the technical content of his LP. But by the same token, I would have had no problem with Buttle winning overall by a small margin, due to properly marked PCS and his superior short program. There's no scandal here, just, I think, some very legitimate questions about how the judges are marking the PCS scores and if they are being overly influenced by the jump content when deciding these marks.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Evan Lysacek for me is one of the most overscored skaters in recent memory, has been ever since the 2005 Worlds where he won his very questionable bronze medal. I think it is something we all just have to accept and hope that the others so far outskate him that it is enough to overcome his overwhelming advantage in scoring before he even sets foot on the ice it seems. There seems to be a judges pet in every event these days, in the mens singles it is definitely Evan Lysacek.

That being said I have come to admire his determination and competitive spirit. He is a real warrior out there and you can tell he wants it. I think that might be part of the reason he is so overscored, in this sport you build respect and maybe with his qualities as a competitor, being somebody who gives the judges so many clean free skates despite his short program ups and downs, and somebody who fights for all he is worth any time he goes out to compete, has perhaps built him alot of the respect he now has with judges and shows in the scores more then his skating quality alone might warrant.

 

[La Rhumba]

.
ITA but it looks like that's what we're going to see? "You can jump a quad, really more then one-well the title is yours then-forget that artistry crap; that's for gays anyway." < that is what I'm beginning to see.

That's basically the underlying message of much of the criticism - as I interpret it - so you can never argue against that prejudice with skating arguments.

 

[demarinis5]

Those who are on the anti-Jeff, "quad" bandwagon are simply showing their ignorance to understanding the sport.

Just ask Hamilton, Boitano, Orser, Browning, Yagudin, and they'll all tell you that a well executed spin or superb footwork is just as difficult as a triple axel or a quad. Look at some of the skaters who have the quad. They can't move their feet like a Kurt or they don't have the quality of line of a Boitano.

Saying that quads define the best, is just plain ignorant.

If it was a "jumping competition" then yes, but it's a SKATING competition. With a good skater, there's a lot more stuff between the jumps than there are jumps. That's what makes a good program. Not telegraphing a jump by skating from one end of the ice to the other to prepare for a quad.

I agree with your post. But this is the era of COP and apparently we have to move with the times. Artistry is going by the wayside and the jumps seem to count very much to the judges overall . This is not a bash but look at our current female World Champion she won that title with little artistry (imo) but excellent jump technique and the fact the other skaters did not perform well. Under the 6.0 system I do not think that Kimmie would be World Champion.

 

[dizzydi7]

I haven't seen this competition yet. But if Evan was able to skate well, then good for him. Perhaps Jeff is the better skater (artistically) but who delivered the best program at this competition? This should be the question!

For those who have a problem with so-called "favorite skaters of the judges" get real. Life isn't fair. Get over it.

Dizzy

 

[silver.blades]

I agree with your post. But this is the era of COP and apparently we have to move with the times. Artistry is going by the wayside and the jumps seem to count very much to the judges overall . This is not a bash but look at our current female World Champion she won that title with little artistry (imo) but excellent jump technique and the fact the other skaters did not perform well. Under the 6.0 system I do not think that Kimmie would be World Champion.

I wouldn't say that artistry has taken a back seat to jumps because of the COP. Under the 6.0 you couldn't win if you fell unless everyone else did, no matter what the program as a whole was. The men couldn't compete without a quad no matter how good their other jumps and elements were or how well choreographed their program was. Yes the COP has it's problems but since they started using it, IMHO the choreoraghy of the programs has improved overall.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Evan Lysacek for me is one of the most overscored skaters in recent memory, has been ever since the 2005 Worlds where he won his very questionable bronze medal. I think it is something we all just have to accept and hope that the others so far outskate him that it is enough to overcome his overwhelming advantage in scoring before he even sets foot on the ice it seems. There seems to be a judges pet in every event these days, in the mens singles it is definitely Evan Lysacek.

I have no problem with placing someone else Third Place in the 2005 Worlds, but who? No one seems to name the unfortunate skater who did not place third, and you must support it by CoP points.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

...No one seems to name the unfortunate skater who did not place third, and you must support it by CoP points.

Good point Joe. I guess that unfortunate must be Johnny Weir, who by the peculiarities of the judging system managed to finish fourth overall despite being 9th in the SP and 6th in the Free.

Or perhaps Joubert, who was second in the Short but 13th in the Long, and who finished 6th overall.

 

[kittycat26]

Weir or Chengiang Li were both more deserving of the bronze medal at the 2005 Worlds then Evan Lysacek was. There is no doubt about it. Evan at best warranted an overall 5th place finish. I am trying to remember the last time Evan actually did obtain a final placing determined by a judging panel warranted. It would have to be an event where he had a big gap on the next placement as I do not recall an event his scores were not extremely elevated in a way not reflective of the standard of his skating. Perhaps his Cup of China win this year.

 

[kittycat26]

I have no problem with placing someone else Third Place in the 2005 Worlds, but who? No one seems to name the unfortunate skater who did not place third, and you must support it by CoP points.

Joe

Supporting by CoP points is quite easy when it comes to Evan Lysacek. Simply drop his always much elevated- relative to his standard of skating- GOE and PC scores and you see the placement he attains drop as a result. Not too much complexity to that.

 

[screech]

Both Evan and Buttle have been constantly overscored. But in this particular competition, Buttle was overmarked to extreme extent. Without a 3A, he scored sth only 6 points below his personal best. That's a scandalous mark.Evan, on the other hand, had 4t+3t, 2 3As.

I really don't want to see a MALE skater to medal at worlds with a quad-less and axel-less program.

To make your point valid, one would have to point out that Jeff's personal best score is from the Olympics where he also made huge mistakes - fall on a quad, hand down on a triple axel and some shaky landings. Most of his elements were only level 3 last year as well. So why shouldn't a performance where his elements are mostly level 4 with +GOE make another shaky performance within 6 points of his personal best?

(And please, don't start going on with the 'there's my point, he's never clean and doesn't do all the jumps' tirade... we all know he's not perfect, but for my response, see what I've written next...)

With the statement about needing a quad and all that other crap to medal at worlds, let me just ask you one thing... what is the name of the sport? It's Figure Skating. NOT Figure Jumping. The main requirement to be able to excel in the sport would be the ability to SKATE. And that is an area where Jeff is undoubtedly the best in the world. The ease of his movement. The edges, the line, the raw excellence of everything between those elements... the SKATING. So in that respect alone, Jeff is the best at the name of the game. So figure skating isn't all about the jumps... it is about the skating. Just look at the name of the sport.

 

[Mathman]

...There is no doubt about it....

I do not understand how you can possibly say that. This very thread is evidence right before your eyes that there IS doubt. :scratch:

 

[kittycat26]

I do not understand how you can possibly say that. This very thread is evidence right before your eyes that there IS doubt. :scratch:

Perhaps it could interpreted as such, or instead that people dont remember the 2005 Worlds as well as I do.

 

[La Rhumba]

A word on the TV coverage on now.....

Saw Jeremy Abbott for the first time, and liked him lots.

Very musical arm movements, lovely precise spins, nice upright posture, and good programme. Shame the jumps were a bit of a disaster, but a gorgeous triple loop towards the end, with amazingly fast rotation, landed cleanly.
A pleasure to watch, and my kind of skater! :agree:

 

[Mathman]

Perhaps it could interpreted as such, or instead that people dont remember the 2005 Worlds as well as I do.

 

[Ice_bec]

Skating has always about being able to jump and the rest counting little, especially grace or skating in time to the music. This can be shown by the high artisic marks of a number of skaters who can jump but lack the artistry of others who can't jump but have well choreographed and artistically challanging programs. If the ISU wanted to change it, they could dismiss the the secret judging, cut out two of the judges now on the panel whose scores don't count, and use them to decide the difficulty of the artistic marks, speed, edge control, grace, musical timing, intricasy of transitions, etc, like they do with the difficulty of the technical aspects. Artistry difficulty and grace could be a factor against the judges decisions, alternatively have different panels for both. Have jump and spin judges and artistry panels.

 

[Tinymavy15]

offtopic: http://www.usfigureskating.org/cont...rcontinents/backstage/belbagos-carruthers.jpg

Oh this look on Tanith's face is priceless. Peter did it again

wow. she is MAD!!!

 

[rain]

Skating has always about being able to jump and the rest counting little, especially grace or skating in time to the music.

Not so. Perhaps it has been moving that way in the recent past, but it was not always this way. Remember school figures? The ability of skaters to accurately use their edges and turns to create specific patterns on the ice counted for a lot when this was the third portion of the competition. Many a time did it tank a good jumper's competition in favour of a less talented free skater.

 

[npa]

Both Evan and Buttle have been constantly overscored. But in this particular competition, Buttle was overmarked to extreme extent. Without a 3A, he scored sth only 6 points below his personal best. That's a scandalous mark.Evan, on the other hand, had 4t+3t, 2 3As.

I really don't want to see a MALE skater to medal at worlds with a quad-less and axel-less program.

Guys, did you see there skating in this competition?
Lysachek underotate his quad more, then 1/4 - its must be couted 3t+3t, underotated first 3 ax, had bad technik on landing most jumps, trabbles on libela-rotation. And were did you see components and trasitions - in last minut in steps sequens? Yes, he must win, but his score must be 145-150