The best thing to do I think would be to cut by half the multiplier of PCS in the short.
Men's FS
- Thread starter Spun Silver
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The best thing to do I think would be to cut by half the multiplier of PCS in the short.
An interesting point Joesitz and one which has some real merit. BTW glad to see your contribution. I had not seen your posts recently.
What you are proposing sounds a lot closer to what the SP was like during it's first decade or so. Very strictly mandated elements: the solo jump (its takeoff and its number of rotations rather than a choice of them); at least one of the jumps in the combo (takeoff and rotations mandated); flying spin and change spin (position and max and min rotations mandated). Choice would be limited primarily to step sequences, combo spins and the triple or quad jump in the combo. Reducing the optional aspects of the SP that have been added for the last 20 years or so might make it clearer and easier to judge specific skills and deficiencies that can be covered up with choreography, embellishments, or one big element. A real apples to apples opportunity to evaluate everyone on the same basis to the greatest extent possible. Allowing music to remain might keep audiences tuned in but reducing the emphasis on theatrics in that segment might restore focus on it as a technical test of pure skill rather than an assessment of artistry or a measure or greatest difficulty. Less of an essay exam and more of a standardized test. It's worth considering.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
In my opinion, the short program and the long program have completely flip-flopped. In the short program most of the skaters manage to show some kind of performance skills, and the programs tend to have some sort of theme and relation to the music.
The long program is the one that has become little more than a jump-fest and an endurance contest. There is very little effort to do anything but just cram in as many jumps as possible in four-and-a-half minutes.
The long program is the one that has become little more than a jump-fest and an endurance contest. There is very little effort to do anything but just cram in as many jumps as possible in four-and-a-half minutes.
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
I might be wrong, but I thought that was what people complained about 6.0 system. Aren't there more "in-betweens" under the current system? Patrick Chan is a product of COP and I like what it has produced. I like the fact that he could win with three falls (I'm not being sarcastic), the fact that the elements in between jumps are highly appreciated.
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- Nov 19, 2010
It is a little misleading to think one can always win with falls. It only happened once in a real ISU competition. The falls are on fully rotated jumps of highest values, together with good skating and other elements, in a minor event when the strongest opponant made mistakes and fell too. It will be almost impossible to happen in a major event like Worlds or even GPF, and definitely not with falls on under-rotated jumps, especially the lower valued ones.
It seems some young skaters are getting the idea and attempting quads without good PCS and before they are able to fully rotate them. There will be splatfests and "quads" rewarded with 2 points before fall deduction. Falls don't pay. Sometimes they are compensated enough to still give a decent placement if the skater is really good but mostly they won't.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2009
This is absolutely true. Someone like Savoie would've loved modern COP, as he was always doing transitions throughout his skate. Highly dense choreography is also respected.
Though I have to admit I don't like the fact that Chan can win with three falls. But I don't think the programs where he's done so are instantly worthless either.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
I couldn't watch live and am just catching up.
- Kudos to KVDP! Amazing!
- I finally see why Joe thinks Brezina is a great dancer. I HOPE he will put it all together this season. What a joy he will be if he does.
- Hated to see Kozuka's meltdown. Still don't "get" his skating though. He only came to life in the footwork sequence for me.
- I loved both Denis Ten and Richard Dornbush in spite of their jump problems. I don't know how tall Ten is now (definitely taller than last year) but he reminds me of Takahashi in his passion and dancerliness. When his jumps work they are Oda-lesque in their softness, and the way he hurled himself into the last footwork sequence was wonderful. Dornbush's program is a winner... it's so corny when it goes into the WT overture... but it's very endearing since he "earned" it with three minutes of "serious" music (if you can call spaghetti-Western music serious) beforehand... to say nothing of a quite remarkable save on a quad! (Can knees go any deeper?) Can't wait to see both of these guys deliver really good performances of their programs.
-Haven't had the heart to watch Armin yet.
- Kudos to KVDP! Amazing!
- I finally see why Joe thinks Brezina is a great dancer. I HOPE he will put it all together this season. What a joy he will be if he does.
- Hated to see Kozuka's meltdown. Still don't "get" his skating though. He only came to life in the footwork sequence for me.
- I loved both Denis Ten and Richard Dornbush in spite of their jump problems. I don't know how tall Ten is now (definitely taller than last year) but he reminds me of Takahashi in his passion and dancerliness. When his jumps work they are Oda-lesque in their softness, and the way he hurled himself into the last footwork sequence was wonderful. Dornbush's program is a winner... it's so corny when it goes into the WT overture... but it's very endearing since he "earned" it with three minutes of "serious" music (if you can call spaghetti-Western music serious) beforehand... to say nothing of a quite remarkable save on a quad! (Can knees go any deeper?) Can't wait to see both of these guys deliver really good performances of their programs.
-Haven't had the heart to watch Armin yet.
I really think Brezina's the one Chan should be the most scared about. If Brezina improved his stamina and started doing those quads in the short and long that we know he can do, he'd be very scary for Chan. Especially since Patrick's 3axel is as shaky it is. Michal could begin to pile up a huge TES lead. Its why I don't understand Michal's coaches strategy. I think Michal pretty much lost a whole season of development due to injury.
To me, it seems like it'd be easier to keep up the performance energy and the crowd's interest in the short program exactly because it's shorter.
it's like the difference between dinner and dessert. a dessert is small and sweet, while a dinner is bigger and grandiose(well, maybe not always, but in comparison).
a better (but, probably less relatable) example can be found in stand-up. short jokes are quick, clever(ideally), and gets to the point. this makes it easier for a lot of newer comics because they can get it out faster and if it goes badly it's easier to put behind you. on the other hand, a story or a longer bit requires, not only the ability to tell a story &/or build it up, but also the ability to keep the audience's interest and the confidence to not start doubting yourself before you get to the punchline(s).
but, you know, that's just my observation & i am quite the neophyte when it comes to skating.
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Brezina has already competed during a few years, he and his team should have realized loooong ago that he needs to exercise stamina much more. Another impression is that he hasn´t enough mental srength to become a threat to top skaters like e.g. Chan.
Brezina's only been on the Senior circuit for 2 1/2 years. I remember at his worlds debut him being by far the cleanest man in the long program at worlds. Then came the expectations/pressure but also losing most of last season due to injury. It took Chan awhile to get use to the expectations too... The jury may be out a bit but I think the talent very well me be there.. . I think Paris will tell that tale though.
Spoke with Brezina afterward. He seems to have a good attitude. He knows how much work he still has to do but he's young. He's had some good success but knows he must continue to push himself. His English is excellent. He said he enjoys working with Pasquale Camerlengo in Detroit and goes there quite often. His girlfriend is Allison Reed. He sees her when he stops in New York on his way to Detroit.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
Kozuka has improved a lot since Japan Open. But I feel that his movements are still chasing by the music. From the dance part and onward, seemed to me the music is screaming "lighter, lighter! Come on, come on, faster!"
Isn't Brezina more handsome than before?
I like him very much. Agree that he should go for the quad. Congratulations to him!I've never had patient to watch Van Der Perren's skating, even though I'm amazed by his longivity. This music cut is like a chopped and messy music since we've known it so well from Yadugin. Good for him to win silver!
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Hmmm, I wonder if Alison was whom Michal referred to when he answered "yes" to a question if he had a girlfriend at the small medal ceremony at Worlds 2010, causing a round of "aw........" in disappointment and some friendly mocking from Chan and Joubert. He seemed rather shy then, slinking away when it was photo op time because he was not a final medalist, but Patrick immediately signaled him back. I assumed his gf was someone back home.
That small medal ceremony was fun and hilarious. But then it was in Italy!
That small medal ceremony was fun and hilarious. But then it was in Italy!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree. I just don't have the attention span to appreciate most long programs -- is that guy still out there jumping away?
Welcome to the forum! We hope you like it here. :yes:
skatingbc said:
I wasn't comparing the CoP to 6.0, but rather short programs versus long programs in both systems.
Actually, the phrasing "the elements in between jumps are highly appreciated" sort of supports my point. We never say, "the jumps that skaters use to punctuate and highlight their performances are highly appreciated."
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2010
Sorry. It's my bad. I didn't read your original post carefully enough. And you are right. They seem to have flip-flopped if we premise the short is meant for showcasing techniques and long for performance. Is that premise true, though? Were they called "short program" vs. "long program" or something else? Maybe (it is just my guess) the reason they changed the names was to eliminate such premise. They are only different in length and no longer technical vs artistic.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2010
In older videos they're called "technical programs" and "free skates".
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- Sep 14, 2008
I'm appreciating Kozuka's program more now than I did at first. He is a very special skater and Nausicaa has such wonderful music, so I think I was too disappointed when the program wasn't what I wanted it to be (an all-time best). It didn't utilize all of the soundtrack cuts I was hoping for and some of the music was altered to a "safer" kind of sound, but some of my preconceptions got in the way of my enjoyment too much at first. While the program may not be a masterpiece, it's still quite beautiful. Considering that Nausicaa is a call for mankind to find peace and harmony, especially with how technology and pollution relate to the natural World, I do find this music cut to be suitable. The program is a gentle reflection rather than the more epic kind of piece I was expecting. In light of the recent natural disaster that Japan has suffered, and how it was exacerbated by mankind's technology, what Kozuka has done here is create a soothing hymn with just enough sense of foreboding.
He really needs to improve the last few moments of the program, though. The music ends on a rather dark, slow, drawn-out note and his movements are too quick and his final position comes too abruptly and too soon before the music has completely ended. Kozuka has a great scratch spin and I'm really happy he goes out of his way to include it in his programs even though CoP doesn't count it as a difficult variation, but it's not appropriate for the end of this program. He should change that spin and add a little bit of choreography afterwards to work with the willowy quality of the music and slowly come to an eventual close in time with the very end of the music.
He really needs to improve the last few moments of the program, though. The music ends on a rather dark, slow, drawn-out note and his movements are too quick and his final position comes too abruptly and too soon before the music has completely ended. Kozuka has a great scratch spin and I'm really happy he goes out of his way to include it in his programs even though CoP doesn't count it as a difficult variation, but it's not appropriate for the end of this program. He should change that spin and add a little bit of choreography afterwards to work with the willowy quality of the music and slowly come to an eventual close in time with the very end of the music.
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playing catch up and just watched kvp. i enjoyed his effortless quadtoeloop and that 333 combo but honestly couldn't enjoy much of the rest of the program, he couldn't match the energy of the music especially during the last two spins, i guess each skater has their faults but i question the music choice. goes without saying that it does not help that yagudin's glorious olympic performance keeps coming to mind.
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