Mens' LP

[Icechick86]

I got it- thanks!

 

[museksk8r]

Both Buttle and Lysacek are winners by default - because the other top guys with quads didn't bring it.

"Winners by default"? . . . come on, give congratulations where congratulations are due. There's more to a program than a quad jump, and incidentally, Joubert and Verner both made mistakes on non-quad elements, Brian on his Axel jumps and Tomas on his Lutz and flip jumps, which is what cost them a higher placement.

 

[siberia82]

For me its the Quads, I want to see HUGE quads and BIG technical jumps, double jumps are for Junior skaters so to reward Patrick for 'playing it safe' is sad to me., I want to see two quads and 8 triples IN EVERY PROGRAM, and Joubert brings that.

As someone else has pointed out, Joubert never brought that content to the table, and he is also guilty of doubling and singling jumps in the past. Also, Brian "played it safe" for the LP---again. I don't see what makes him so much better than Patrick in that regard. :sheesh:

But I did enjoy him falling on his *** on television

I've held my tongue in the past because of our friendship, but I have to say that your incessant Chan-bashing is getting really annoying. I'm no Joubert fan, but I never wish for him to have a disastrous skate, and I actually felt bad for him after he fell on the 2A. The negative karma you sent out to Patrick clearly boomeranged on to Brian.

No Tanith shot ?

Rumour has it that Evan and Tanith broke up recently.

He'll have to get out of both Canada and Azerbaijan to make it work... boy has a busy year with government!

:chorus: Well, whatever it was which prevented Andreev from competing in LA (there are 3 theories, and no one knows which one is the real reason), I hope it gets sorted out by next season, regardless of the nation he skates for.

I WANT TO SEE QUADS!!! Not sissy stuff!!!

So by your own definition, our beloved Fedor must be a "sissy" because he can no longer do quads. Hell, even his normally reliable the 3-Axel eluded him at the 2009 Canadians. He therefore deserves your "disrespect" more than Patrick does, yet you always gush over Fedor while Chan receives nothing but your vitriol. It's rather hypocritical.

 

[Medusa]

"Winners by default"? . . . come on, give congratulations where congratulations are due. There's more to a program than a quad jump, and incidentally, Joubert and Verner both made mistakes on non-quad elements, Brian on his Axel jumps and Tomas on his Lutz and flip jumps, which is what cost them a higher placement.

It may sound a bit nastier than I meant it. And I love me some Buttle, I don't enjoy Lysacek - but I admire his competitive nature.

"Winners by default" is not against the skaters who won, it's against the skaters who let them win. It's against the quality of the competition. The last two Worlds were "Winners by default"-competitions. I just don't enjoy that kind of competition. I prefer a scenario à la Worlds 2006. The first two skaters landing 2 Quads each and a whole bunch of clean Triples (Joubert and Lambiel), followed by a skater with 1 Quad and a whole bunch of clean Triples (Lysacek), followed by another skater with a Quad and several clean Triples (Sandhu) and then two skaters with 7 or 8 clean Triples each. So many skaters brought their A-game technically - and the best man of tech and art - Lambiel of course - won. Lambiel didn't win because Joubert and Lysacek didn't land all their stuff - Lambiel won because he landed jumps just as difficult as the others and combined that with fantastic artistry. That's an amazing competition, that's what I want to see.

And I am very well aware that there are much more "Winners by default" in figure skating, in lots of sports disciplines - than "Winners because of pure superiority". But I also prefer a football game where both teams show their very best and in the end the superior and technically brilliant striker of Team A scores the 5-4 - over a football game were Team A is good but Team B is abysmal and it ends like 6-1 for Team A.

 

[museksk8r]

It's against the quality of the competition. I just don't enjoy that kind of competition. I prefer a scenario à la Worlds 2006. The first two skaters landing 2 Quads each and a whole bunch of clean Triples (Joubert and Lambiel), followed by a skater with 1 Quad and a whole bunch of clean Triples (Lysacek), followed by another skater with a Quad and several clean Triples (Sandhu) and then two skaters with 7 or 8 clean Triples each. So many skaters brought their A-game technically - and the best man of tech and art - Lambiel of course - won. Lambiel didn't win because Joubert and Lysacek didn't land all their stuff - Lambiel won because he landed jumps just as difficult as the others and combined that with fantastic artistry. That's an amazing competition, that's what I want to see.

I can definitely understand and agree with that and we've seen that evidenced so much through the history of figure skating. :agree: I'd love to see more championships like Michelle vs. Chen Lu at 1996 Worlds, and like you mentioned Stephane vs. Brian at 2006 Worlds. That level of competition makes everything so much more exciting and satisfying for the winners!

 

[Bruin714]

Let's give credit to the winners!

 

[cloudkicker09]

Geez Siber, now I feel bad......

 

[Kinga]

OMG, what a FANTASTIC competition that was. I just watched LP on Eurosport. Who says that the skaters are alike??? They were all different!!! I love them all! Even Joubert
Ufff, I will have to cool down and will catch up with this thread later

 

[siberia82]

Geez Siber, now I feel bad......

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh towards you. (((cloudkicker09))) I had bottled in my discontent before, so I guess it all came out at once. I was trying to make the point that just because one doesn't like a skater's particular style, it doesn't mean that s/he doesn't deserve our respect. The reasons you give for disliking Chan can also be applied to your favourite skaters, so it seems like you have a double standard.

 

[antmanb]

I never said anything like that, not in this thread nor in any other threads. I also said that Joubert would have won without the two mistakes - and he should have. Just as Verner should have won the competition if he had rotated the last two Triples.

I didn't say you did i wasn't making a statement I was asking a genuine question because what you said was

I just think that it makes the results seem more fair, more "athletic" if the winner has a quad.

So i was just clarifying that you also meant in addition to a flawless set of triples or do you think that having a quad means that a skater can have other errors and still win? It was a genuine question.

Don't you think you are a bit out of line here? Especially since I said in my post that there is a difference. I also never said that Fernandez should have placed higher.

Not really - you seem to favouring jumps (particularly quads), pointed out that Fernandez landed one more triple than Chan, and then seemed to be disparaging the PCS difference, i took that to mean that you thought either (at one extreme) that Fernandez should have beaten Chan (which you have now said you didn't mean so fair enough) or that they should have been closer in placement. You said:

Javier Fernandez landed one Triple more than Patrick Chan - Javi is 19th, Chan is 2nd. Of course Javi had some bobbles in there, but at the end of the day was the difference really that huge between Chan and Fernandez - 17 places? Chan got 21 points more PCS!

I would absolutely unequivocally say - yes the difference really is that big, and one that a layman could see. You also have to take it all in the context of the skaters that placed between them as well if we are talking about the gap in the placement.

Both Buttle and Lysacek are winners by default - because the other top guys with quads didn't bring it. In 2008 those were especially Takahashi and Lambiel, Joubert was already too far behind after the SP. In 2009 Verner and Joubert handed the victory to Lysacek by not cashing in on their superior jumping abilities (and in Verner's case - superior skating and artistry).

Whoever wins tends to be the winner by default - the person who skates the best. Just because someone can do it in practice it doesn't mean a thing - ask Sasha Cohen! When has Joubert ever skated clean with the quads? I'm sure he's done it once but that doesn't mean he can every time.

Isn't this the whole point of the argument about the quad? You take the risk that in landing it you will trounce the opposition provided you skate clean, over the "conservative" 8 triples skated clean - afterall since Yags or Plush who can actually produce the full triples plus quad jump content?

The quad is a calculated risk that Brian takes - he doesn't have the spins, footwork or musicality of some of the other skaters so he needs the quad to make up for his lacking areas. The other skaters push themselves in the footwork, spins and musicality because they need to in order to make up for the lack of quad. It seems a pretty fair balance to me.

All I am saying is that I want the Olympics to be a fiery contest, where top guys with Quads like Oda, Joubert, Verner and Takahashi really bring it all to the table - and that one of them wins with 2 Quads + 8 Triples over guys with average jumping content.

Well you might get your wish if Pluschenko comes back - but he is the only one to have done that and not one of the guys in your list I think has landed 2 quads and 8 triples.

Ant

 

[enlight78]

I think it is ironic evan finally won worlds when he let the quad go. congradulations.The last person to complete a two quad , full triple, artistic progam was Dai at 2008 4CC. He just started back training due to injury.

 

[sillylionlove]

I have to say that Even rocked it last night as did Patrick and they both deserved their places.

Brian..seriously...you can land a quad but a double axel and you go splat?!?! And Tomas...will you ever skate without having a meltdown somewhere in the program?

Kozuka....Yuka but in male form...I like him would have liked to see him do better.

And finally Samuel Contesti...never have seen him skate before...I really liked him.

 

[Mafke]

"Winners by default" is not against the skaters who won, it's against the skaters who let them win. It's against the quality of the competition. The last two Worlds were "Winners by default"-competitions. I just don't enjoy that kind of competition.

But I also prefer a football game where both teams show their very best and in the end the superior and technically brilliant striker of Team A scores the 5-4 - over a football game were Team A is good but Team B is abysmal and it ends like 6-1 for Team A.

The thing is there's hardly any men who could skate good programs with consistent quads and a full array of triples.

I think people were spoiled by Yagudin and Plushenko in their primes (shades of Midori Ito 20 years ago). And I think in practical terms the human body isn't meant to be able to do quads on ice skates (the technology of which hasn't signifcantly changed in how many decades?) The occasional freak (I mean that in a statistical not a judgmental way) can do quads and skate well but mostly it's one or the other especially under CoP which makes every other aspect of freeskating such an exhausting grind.

So, take your pick a) a quad or two in an otherwise uneven program b) no quads but a better overall program. Would it be nice to have both? Maybe, it would also be nice if life came with free ponies and an ulimited supply of non-fattening chocolate.

Personally I hate quads, their ugly and they suck the life out of the program (whether or not they're landed). If I had my way a triple and quad would count as the same jump for Zayak purposes (with maybe extra points for a quad) so only those who had business trying them would.

 

[bekalc]

The quad is a calculated risk that Brian takes - he doesn't have the spins, footwork or musicality of some of the other skaters so he needs the quad to make up for his lacking areas. The other skaters push themselves in the footwork, spins and musicality because they need to in order to make up for the lack of quad. It seems a pretty fair balance to me.

It's not completely true that Brian doesn't have the spins or footwork that other skaters have. Brian got level 3's on his footwork and had several level three spins. He messed up his last spin, but he's capable of competitive footwork and spins. Someone there said that Brian had very fast spins, and he skated with intensity to the music.

Joubert has been working hard on upping his levels and it shows...

As for the quad well the quad can give skaters a bit of a buffer. But it depends. If Joubert had landed 2 quads in his program, he would have won even with the fall on the double axel. :lol:

So for Brian if he can do 2 quads in his program in practice he really should go for it.

 

[snowflake]

Isn't this the whole point of the argument about the quad? You take the risk that in landing it you will trounce the opposition provided you skate clean, over the "conservative" 8 triples skated clean

Ant

Doesn't a quad(if fully rotated) with a fall still give more points than an average triple? And the same with 3-axel versus 2-axel?

If so, there is not that big risk.

 

[jennylovskt]

Does it really matter as long as the skating is good? Really, truly honestly - an eight triple program with two triple axels and two triple lutzes without a foot wrong - what could be bad about that?

Would a triple only program really be so much worse than a program with a quad and seven triples?

I just don't get why.

Ant

Yes. It matters a lot. It took away the thrill, the feeling of "no one in the world can do" or "only a few in the world can do".

I like quad and I also like artistry. Do they have to be separated? If a person cannot do both, that only means that this person is not good enough, not as good as some of the skaters we have seen before. I don't want to just settle in "an eight triple program with two triple axels and two triple lutzes without a foot wrong". It's just not enough. Of couse, I don't want to see a champion with a quad but messed up every other element either. I remembered how thrilled I was when I saw Elvis Stojko's 3 - 3 jumps. Unfortunately, some fans' appetite has been raised by you know who.

I prefer Joubert 10 times more than Lysacek. It was Joubert's title to lose. Evan took it and with downgraded technical difficulty. I am not thrilled.

 

[bekalc]

Doesn't a quad(if fully rotated) with a fall still give more points than an average triple? And the same with 3-axel versus 2-axel?

If so, there is not that big risk.

Not the same but almost, the problem is if you can't rotate it. Which is why Joubert should have gone for the second quad that he had trained for in practice. He said too that it wouldn't have messed him up so much and he would have been doing less calculating in his brain if he had just gone for what he had plan.

I think this should be Joubert's jumping plan all next year. He should aim for two quads and only go for the third quad IF he's far behind or someone scored really big... Or he made a slight mistake etc.

Quad toe
Quad salchow
Triple axel/triple toe
triple axel
triple lutz/double toe
triple loop/double toe/double loop
triple lutz
triple flip. (replace with a salchow if he's getting !)

This should be his plan and lay out.. IF he is far behind and thinks he needs it than replace the first triple lutz with a quad toe (but hopefully put the combination first.)

 

[skatingbc]

Doesn't a quad(if fully rotated) with a fall still give more points than an average triple? And the same with 3-axel versus 2-axel?

If so, there is not that big risk.

According to this link:

http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/news_views/news/2008_2009/pdf/SoV-Singles.pdf

A Quad Toe has a base value of 9.8. If a skater falls on this, an automatic GOE of -3 is given, which is equivalent to -4.8 points. Also, because of the fall, the skater receives a -1 deduction. A Triple Toe has a base value of 4 points. If I'm not mistaken, A quad toe with a fall is equal to a triple toe with 0 GOE. Interesting...

That's not the same for all jumps though. There seems to be minimal risk with the above example. However, if a skater is at a high enough level to attempt a quad toe, they would probably not receive 0 GOE on a triple toe attempt.

 

[museksk8r]

I think it is ironic evan finally won worlds when he let the quad go. congratulations.The last person to complete a two quad , full triple, artistic program was Dai at 2008 4CC. He just started back training due to injury.

Yes, I agree, and I also find it laughable that Sandra Bezic tries to convince the US viewing audience that Evan is so much more artistic and choreographically aware than Brian Joubert is. She is so delusional! Yes, Lysacek performed better than Joubert did at this championship, but that doesn't mean he is a better artist, or even an artist, period. To Evan's credit, I do like that he toned down the arm flailing for the LP, but I still think his SP is a big hot mess. No question for me that his World Championship this season is deserved and a big, hearty congratulations to him! Chan, Abbott, and Takahashi are still the better artists, IMO.

 

[museksk8r]

I think this should be Joubert's jumping plan all next year. He should aim for two quads and only go for the third quad IF he's far behind or someone scored really big... Or he made a slight mistake etc.

Quad toe
Quad salchow
Triple axel/triple toe
triple axel
triple lutz/double toe
triple loop/double toe/double loop
triple lutz
triple flip. (replace with a salchow if he's getting !)

This should be his plan and lay out..

All of the men and ladies are required to perform a 2Axel under the rules. It has to be included in one of his 8 jumping passes.