Men's Short Program, Fri. 11/18 at 9 am EST

[fscric]

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Ok, discarding aside Art&Sport's and Blades of Passion's posts for the time being, what Chan bashing posts were there? I don't understand. Criticisms of a skater looking lackluster and not being into a performance are common criticisms and IMO, do not constitute bashing at all. For instance, how many times have we heard that a skater like Miki Ando just sleepwalked through her program? Or that Mirai looks to have lost all her spark and seemed really bored during her programs this season?

OK, I re-read the thread and I agree that before the arrival of those 2 posters, the posts in this thread are criticism.

 

[emma]

Patrick Chan: Ehh..... I’m not the biggest fan of keeping programs for another year, unless you clearly didn’t do well with it the first time around. Patrick’s already nailed this program to the wall from Worlds 2011 and I can’t imagine him skating it any better (and given the new GOE limitations on his footwork, doubtful he’d score higher). Add that to the fact that I never really LOVED this program in the first place – certainly not compared to his Exilados... well, I doubt I’m gonna root that hard for him in the SP. But the thing is – the dude can skate. Even when he’s not on (and he wasn’t here), he’s still incredible to watch. I’ve never seen someone who’s talent is so skate-specific. Everything about what he does is grounded in those amazing blades of his. And personally, that’s what I respond to in figure skating. Even when off, there’s so much quality here. The footwork section is just sick. The triple axel was spot on. And even if it’s not my favourite of his programs, I admire the new choreographic subtleties found throughout – just the little toss of joy he gives off is infectious.

Nan Song: You know, he’s definitely rough around the edges, but really, this wasn’t that bad. Epic jumps, and even if the music is overdone, it’s overdone for a reason (aka, Clint Mansell’s score is really really good and the intensity suits him). I’ve gotta ask, though – is that all that’s necessary for the steps preceding the solo triple. Cause that’s kinda lame.

Michal Brezina: I was hoping for MORE attack, actually. The footwork was well skated and placed, though, and his jumps (when on) are terrific. Interesting that he got the second highest PCS of the night. Don’t know if that’s mere laziness from the judges or is fair.

Adam Rippon: This program has a KILLER ending. That split jump and then that final spin is just a thrilling skating moment. I wish this program before it had more of a gradual rise to that crescendo, though. He didn’t stalk his 3A as much here as he did at Skate Canada (or was that just the long program) and I was pleasantly surprised. I’m fine with his PCS being behind Brezina’s even if I don’t think I’d have them like that. But he really wowed me in the end, so that definitely helps. ...

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Really great post....I find myself totally agreeing with this. But I especially agree with all of the stuff you wrote about Chan.

I am still wondering why Adam's 3 lutz didn't get higher GOE's; perhaps someone who understands scoring better than I can help here,

 

[evangeline]

Florent Amodio: Oh, did Morosov misread this season or what? Right off the bat, we have an atrocious costume. Then comes that ridiculous take on “Summertime” (“Summertime” without Louis Armstrong’s sonorous trumpet is like Canadian winter with no snow. Doesn’t logically compute). The French federation and Stannick Jeannette need to stage an intervention stat – the choreography is bland, the interpretation mediocre and the ego overwhelming.

Clearly you have never been to Vancouver in the winter

Aside from that....so agree about Florent. I think Morozov is sucking out his soul because the genuine joy and the exuberance in skating from previous seasons seems gone, or at least somewhat muted. The worst thing is that Florent's LP is even worse than his SP in terms of costuming, music, interpretation and choreography.

Only tripped out ice dancers can get away with pairing neon green and tiger print.

 

[skateflower]

Interesting how some people always find somebody else better than Patrick in every competition. . .

Well, the opposition to him will likely retreat either 1) if he stops falling at every competition, or 2) if he still falls but judges start to downgrade him in rankings,

 

[jettasian]

I think Patrick is bored by now with his own sp. Other than that everybody skated like they were drunk of champagne.
So much talk about the men event here,I liked COC and NHK much better.

Actually, I was bored too. I mean, he did the same program so well at world last year, now, it looks pale in comparison. That's why one should never repeat a program that has been done much better before. I could understand POTO as it didn't get a better showcase until last year. Well, as long as the judges don't get bored, I guess what am I to complain about? I just hope that it won't give him a disadvantage in Nice.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Clearly you have never been to Vancouver in the winter

Aside from that....so agree about Florent. I think Morozov is sucking out his soul because the genuine joy and the exuberance in skating from previous seasons seems gone, or at least somewhat muted. The worst thing is that Florent's LP is even worse than his SP in terms of costuming, music, interpretation and choreography.

Only tripped out ice dancers can get away with pairing neon green and tiger print.

I maintain that Vancouver and the entire lower mainland is a logical incongruity to Canada (except colleen. She's awesome).

So is Vancouver, of course (and I spent my formative years in Northern British Columbia, fwiw).

 

[skatinginbc]

It snowed in Vancouver yesterday. It has been an unusually cold winter in BC.

 

[fscric]

Patrick Chan: Ehh..... I’m not the biggest fan of keeping programs for another year, unless you clearly didn’t do well with it the first time around. Patrick’s already nailed this program to the wall from Worlds 2011 and I can’t imagine him skating it any better (and given the new GOE limitations on his footwork, doubtful he’d score higher).

I totally agree with you about the bold part, that has me worry about his SP scores this year. Can you explain about the "new GOE limitations on his footwork" as I'm not familiar with it? Thanks.

 

[jettasian]

Job well done with a UR'd quad fall? I'd hope that the reigning world champion would be held to a higher standard.

What does UR'd a quad fall have anything to do with reigning world champ? So a world champ can't make mistake? What does that say about former world champ who didn't even attempt a quad then?

 

[Blades of Passion]

OK, I re-read the thread and I agree that before the arrival of those 2 posters, the posts in this thread are criticism.

My posts are criticism as well. I went to full length to explain my opinion with a detailed protocol breakdown. Don't lump me into this ridiculous "xxxx poster is bashing zzzz skater" talk, which in fact nobody is doing in the first place. Art&Sport may be very repetitive but he/she is not bashing Chan.

People need to stop being so artificially outraged at dissenting opinions.

Also - some people may get defensive at how "whatever Patrick Chan does it's never good enough for some of you!", but on the other hand some people find it delusional/uneducated to think Patrick Chan is the epitome of amazing programs and performance ability.

It goes both ways and if you can't handle reading opinions you don't agree with, then maybe you shouldn't participate in discussion forums.

 

[jettasian]

Maybe Chan is leting his hair grow to a mullet to make the quad more consistent?

No, to distract the judges from his lack of "artistry".

 

[jettasian]

1. I sort of feel the opposite. When people starts complaining about his hair, his personality, his multiple fall cushion (there is no such thing), then yes, that's bashing. It appears in every thread where Chan is somewhat included.
2. I completely agree with this, and critizing a performance is in no way bashing.
3. I never stated that. Of course you should be allowed to like/dislike a skater, but you shouldn't attack them as soon as the opportunity comes along.
4. Can't say I've seen it/noticed it. The place where I have seen it is Mao vs Yuna, and I really hope people would not bring that level of imaturity here.
5. Well, of course they will. Speaks for itself. But there is a difference between critizing a performance based on your emotions or with technical knowledge of why that result came into place.





You keep talking about artistry but you never back up with facts. Besides, the word artistry is not mentioned anywhere in the rules, and therefore no one is judged on artistry. The thing is, what is artistic to you might not be artistic to some, and vice verca. This has all got to do with cultural differences, age differences, educational differences, etc etc.. The judges are marking the PCS by a set of criteria, and it is up to the skater to demonstrate as many of these criteria's as they can during the time frame they have. If you look at all these criterias, I can guarantee you it will make you better understand why the PC are given the way they are. I am not saying you have to agree with the result, but at least it might give you an idea of why it is the way it is.

And btw, the judges are NOT ranking the skaters. The techinal panel decides the difficulty of each element seperatly, and so do the judges with their GOE. They mark the quality of each individual element. If you look at the protocol from this event, you can see that Chan was punished for the mistake he did by the maximum amount of deduction. That does not mean he is supposed to get punished on the rest, which he did well.

I think the hair part is meant as joke only, nothing serious. I do agree with the rest of what you said. No matter what Chan does or doesn't do, some people will just hate him and there will always be controversial about his marks. It's a tradition on this board.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I totally agree with you about the bold part, that has me worry about his SP scores this year. Can you explain about the "new GOE limitations on his footwork" as I'm not familiar with it? Thanks.

Not a huge deal.

During the 2010/2011 season, the level four footwork season had a base value of 3.90, and that has remained unchanged. However, the GOEs one can get lower now. Last season, +3 across the board would net the skater three extra points, for a total of 6.90 (I believe the points were straight +1, +2, and +3, directly corresponding to the GOEs given) . Now, +3 across the board would get only 2.1 points (total = 6.00), +2 scores 1.4 and +1 scores 0.7 (so essentially a 30% reduction in possible GOE earned).

This can clearly be seen comparing Takahashi's 2011 NHK SP and Chan's 2011 World SP scores for footwork. Takahashi got six +3s and three +2s, for a factored GOE of 1.90 (source). Chan got the reverse, six +2s and three +3s, but the factoring gave him a GOE of 2.29 (source). All that means for Chan (and Takahashi and Fernandez and....) is that an element he can score well with is worth slightly less.

 

[fscric]

IP, thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it.

 

[jettasian]

Every men's thread turns into an argument about Patrick-bashing. It's boring! Why can't people accept that there are differences of opinion? You will never, ever, ever convert the whole forum to Patrick-love by fighting them. That said, there is tons of respect for him here, but all some people hear is bashing.

I don't think that's true. I don't think some (such as me) are trying to convince others to love Patrick. It's more like defending some ridiculous accusation that's far from the truth. As they always say, hater's gonna hate.

 

[fscric]

... but on the other hand some people find it delusional/uneducated to think Patrick Chan is the epitome of amazing programs and performance ability. ...

I don't think most of Patrick's fans think he's the epitome of anything, but you can believe whatever you want.

 

[jettasian]

Well, the opposition to him will likely retreat either 1) if he stops falling at every competition, or 2) if he still falls but judges start to downgrade him in rankings,

If you look at the score, he did get penalized for his fall. What else do you want??

 

[evangeline]

No matter what Chan does or doesn't do, some people will just hate him and there will always be controversial about his marks. It's a tradition on this board.

But....what skater is completely and universally loved by all fans? Every skater will have detractors of a sort and cries of WUZROBBED and OVERSCORED are practically endemic to this board, and not only regarding Patrick. Are differences in opinion not allowed?

 

[skatinginbc]

It must be great to find one expert comment that can be used suitably. Damn all other professional opinions.

I watched only EuroSport today, so I didn't even have to look for it. If you can give us the links to "all other professional opinions" that agreed with his high score today, that would be nice of you.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I certainly agree that Song is not in a high league re artistry -- but neither is Chan. I did say that Chan should edge Song by virtue of his better "posing" skills and his superior blade work, so obviously Chan's PCS in my estimate would be higher than Song's, but IMO, Chan's weakness in artistry is masked by his superior ss. ITs very true that IJS loves to reward jumps over artistry. In general, skating officials have always tended to reward jumps over artistry. The problem is that under IJS, the PCS marks are often manipulated, and do not always accurately reflect a skater's level of presentation skills.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. What I was saying was the fact that you tend to put artistic skaters over tech-strong skaters was different from what the judges actually do. Bring some detailed numbers, so we could discuss them. Otherwise, it sounds baseless, especially with those reputation and politics accusations throwing around.

I wouldn't put Chan into artistic skaters category. And I agree that he doesn't have the best artistry in the world. But I very much agree with what Ilovefigures said. What is artistry? How do you judge artistry in PCS? According to the breakdowns in the 5 categories in PCS, Chan did well in general. He is a well rounded skater, better than artistic skaters who are often weak technically, such as Rippon; and better than pure technical skaters who are very much lack of artistic abilities, such as Song. It is baseless to put Chan and Song in the same group on artistry and seperated only by "posing" skills. (Yes, you did say superior blade work. But as you yourself said before, that doesn't belong to artistry.) The way you assess his skills was as if he has little or no artistry. That was why I say that Chan has good artistry, not the best, but very considerable. It was just the artistry you don't like.