Mens SP

[Buttercup]

I am pretty sure it didn't. He got 12.6 for the combo.

No, he got 10.6 from what I've read. But he wouldn't have gotten that with a UR, either, because then the second part of the combination would've been a bad double, and he'd never have gotten above 10 for that.

I wonder why he didn't just stick the 3T after the lutz, surely he wouldn't have been penalized that much for a solo quad, even without footwork going in.

 

[Kinga]

It is a very interesting theory, and one I think is completely valid. I would add some others (linked ):

Brian and Evan are more or less the last of a generation, a generation which is the last to have known the old judging system and a generation that is inspired by Yagudin, Goebel, Stojko, Abt and so on. When one looks at the current skating scene, one can see that there are a lot of talented young skaters, but skaters that one generaly has trouble imagining as tomorrow's heavy-weights. A lot of these kids have loads of talent, but because they spent most of their competitive career skating under the current system, they have good footwork, good spins, intricate choreographies, but they don't take risks, they don't do programs with lots of "oomph". The old generation may not have a some of the qualities that these new skaters have, but they know how to work the crowd, they take risks, they make competions thrilling.

I think also judges are starting to realise that the kind of skating the current system encourages is partly responsible for dropping popularity.
These new skaters all skate alike, there are no strong personnalities, original styles, out there, which is what makes the mens' event what it is.
Patrick, I think is an amazing skater, but because he is the leader of this new generation, it's via his grades that judges are sending out the signal.

But this is totally unfair to skaters (if your assumptions are true). First the whole new system is raised to promote intricacy, steps, etc. and then, all of the sudden all those 'young ' skaters get a slapp in the face: 'wait, actually it is not that we want from you guys'. So what is this? A caprice? A joke?
I am not sure whether a whole new trend to promote something else than it was first established is really true, we will need more time to find out.

I dont know whether it is likely, but it might be that the judging could be influenced by current ISU policies. If for whatever reason someone in ISU started promoting the approach that figure skating is loosing fans because there are fewer skaters that interact with audience, are showmen, etc, then it is not excluded that the 'suggestion' to judges was: promote those who make ladies in the audience clap like crazy, even if it is just pelvic thrusts'

And I still think, that even within CoP frames there is still plenty of room to show personality....

 

[ks777]

I am pretty sure it didn't. He got 12.6 for the combo.

what is a 4toe worth? and 3toe? I am not good at Math...

 

[Medusa]

what is a 4toe worth? and 3toe? I am not good at Math...

9.8 + 4 = 13.8 base value

 

[Buttercup]

I dont know whether it is likely, but it might be that the judging could be influenced by current ISU policies. If for whatever reason someone in ISU started promoting the approach that figure skating is loosing fans because there are fewer skaters that interact with audience, are showmen, etc, then it is not excluded that the 'suggestion' to judges was: promote those who make ladies in the audience clap like crazy, even if it is just pelvic thrusts'

Look, I don't know what's going on within the ISU; it's a great mystery . And I know you're not overly fond of Joubert, esp. this year's programs from him. But to reduce his skating to nothing but pelvic thrusts is unfair and inaccurate.

 

[museksk8r]

They said on CBC that he got credit for the triple. The commentators seemed confused by it too.

I find it very confusing that Lambiel's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (clean) got downgraded last season in the World's SP, but Joubert's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (big step out) was ratified. Different judging panels see very different things. :banging:

 

[Buttercup]

9.8 + 4 = 13.8 base value

Oh, I've done the math wrong. I kept thinking he'd lost 2.2 points, but if he got 10.6 then it's actually 3.2. That works out to -2 GOE. Ant, I've misled you!

ETA: Yes, it was 10.6 for the combination, according to the LA Times.

 

[Medusa]

I find it very confusing that Lambiel's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (clean) got downgraded last season in the World's SP, but Joubert's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (big step out) was ratified. Different judging panels see very different things. :banging:

So now we are already starting to compare Joubert's 4-3 to a 4-3 at last years Worlds done by a guy who isn't even skating anymore - in order to make Joubert look even worse?

 

[ks777]

9.8 + 4 = 13.8 base value

Thanks!! so Joubert didn't get 9.8 for 4toe because he hand a hand down and if his 3toe was downgraded he wouldn't have gotten any points for it. So he must have gotten ratified. So Brian's score should have been around 82? So it should have been 3 way tie!

 

[museksk8r]

So now we are already starting to compare Joubert's 4-3 to a 4-3 at last years Worlds done by a guy who isn't even skating anymore - in order to make Joubert look even worse?

I was making the judging of the event this year to look worse, not Joubert, but believe whatever you want.

 

[Medusa]

I was making the judging of the event this year to look worse, not Joubert, but believe whatever you want.

I doubt that comparing to last year will get us anywhere, especially since we have kind of found out that even the scores this season don't make really sense if we compare them.

 

[museksk8r]

I doubt that comparing to last year will get us anywhere, especially since we have kind of found out that even the scores this season don't make really sense if we compare them.

I wasn't really comparing this year to last year, but rather I was giving an example of how confusing the judging of this sport can be. I don't think there's any way to make sense of it all, whether we are dealing with 6.0 or COP. I'm just as baffled as you are about the scoring of the SP this year. :agree:

 

[Mathman]

I find it very confusing that Lambiel's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (clean) got downgraded last season in the World's SP, but Joubert's 4toe(1 hand down)+3toe (big step out) was ratified. Different judging panels see very different things. :banging:

Being downgraded has nothing to do with whether the jump was clean, hand down, step out, or even a fall. It's just, did he make the rotations.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Joubert lost two points on his quad. Basically one point for his hand down, and the other for his triple with the step out.) I suspect the judges don't put -3 on quads for mistakes like Jouberts because that would lead to minus -4 which isn't fair either.

How is that not fair? The more a jump is worth, the more the -GOE needs to be. Or else you end up with people just trying to rotate jumps and not really caring if they land it or not because they know it will still be worth a good amount of points. Remember Buttle at the 2006 Olympics? "I will probably fall on my Quad, but it will still be worth 5 points!"

 

[museksk8r]

Being downgraded has nothing to do with whether the jump was clean, hand down, step out, or even a fall. It's just, did he make the rotations.

I totally realize that. As has been said though, it has been questionable by some whether Joubert made the rotations. Apparently, the judging panel believed so, and that is really what matters, but why should that prevent fans from questioning it? I found the 3toe from Joubert to be really close, as was Lambiel's last season. Stephane's judging panel downgraded him while Brian's panel ratified him. It's a confusing sport where downgrading is concerned . . . that is all I was trying to say. Don't we question and complain about everything else, whether it gets us anywhere or not?

 

[Danale]

I just registered to say:

Can we please have a moratorium on the tangos next year? At this point I'm ready for tango programs to get a music deduction, even if very well skated .

And Bolero is just as rhythmic as Safri Duo, it's like the Safri Duo of a different generation.

You guys are so funny! Don't know if you meant to be, but still ...
And I totaly agree about the tango :agree:

 

[enlight78]

we need more fans to post their opinion so we can break the 1,000 post mark.
for once the men are getting the attention they deserve.

 

[Medusa]

Don't we question and complain about everything else, whether it gets us anywhere or not?

Yeah, and we better continue to do so because I want this thread to be longer than the Ladies' SP thread. We are doing pretty good so far, but you'll never know - a Lip-call on Kim's Flip could already cause about 50 pages in the Ladies' SP thread.

So keep on!

we need more fans to post their opinion so we can break the 1,000 post mark.
for once the men are getting the attention they deserve.

We were writing the exact same thing at the same time...

 

[Mathman]

...for once the men are getting the attention they deserve.

But wait till Mao Asada or Yuna Kim gets wuzrobbed tomorrow.

We were writing the exact same thing at the same time...

Me, too.

(OK, that's 941.)

 

[Buttercup]

I found the 3toe from Joubert to be really close, as was Lambiel's last season. Stephane's judging panel downgraded him while Brian's panel ratified him. It's a confusing sport where downgrading is concerned . . . that is all I was trying to say. Don't we question and complain about everything else, whether it gets us anywhere or not?

I think the scoring at Worlds last season may have been more strict. The highest score last year would have been good enough for 4th in 2009, Joubert got his with that music deduction, and Johnny, who other than an edge call on the flip had a fantastic SP, barely cleared 80. I think Medusa is right that there is no point in comparing the decisions of the two panels - we have more than enough to question at each individual event .

Joubert apparently lost 3.2 points on his combination. His other elements were well executed, and his PCS, while rather high for an imperfect performance, was not out of the range he's been in all season.

Tomas Verner, on the other hand, was totally robbed.

We must ensure this thread is longer than the ladies' thread! But the judges will likely ruin our worthy goal by giving Caro high marks on a performance with mistakes, or displeasing the Mao and/or Yu-Na bots, or getting all our Canadian friends to chime in about how Joannie wuzrobbed. Judges, please mark the ladies fairly!