Michelle Attends U.S. State Dinner for China President Hu Jintao

[OS]

Oh my generation has definitely forced an evolution in the American English language. We've really butchered it. "Like" is high on my pet peeve list.

Well Michelle is American, she speaks American - from Southern California in particular. She is just being genuine to who she is. It would be weird to start to finding her to speak 'like' the Queen of England.

I personally have no problem with it. I much prefer a warm and genuine personality vs the pretentious façade someone feel they have to 'act upon' when dealing with dignitaries. I actually think traits like these put people at ease, and make her very friendly, personable and even charming!

She is a figure skater, not a school teacher, and she will win hearts and charm them like she did with President Hu at the dinner. And trust me, those seasoned politicians can read BS a mile away if you are trying too hard and not being true to who you are. As for the best way to learn to public speak and annunciate as a diplomats, a lot of that just comes with time and experience.

 

[Phil Cohen]

I'm sure Attyfan meant people whose heritage is of the country in question. Michelle Kwan and Vera Wang weren't born in China.

Actually, though U.S.A.-born, Michelle Kwan is more Chinese than you would think. Her parents were from Hong Kong and Michelle DOES speak fluent Chinese. In Chinese President Hu Jintang's previous visit to the White House, Michelle Kwan spoke extensively to him in Chinese.(President Jintang doesn't speak English)

 

[Mathman]

It would be weird to start to finding her to speak 'like' the Queen of England.

That, however, would be cool beyond belief.

"You downgraded my triple flip? We are not amused." :thumbsup:

Actually, though U.S.A.-born, Michelle Kwan is more Chinese than you would think. Her parents were from Hong Kong and Michelle DOES speak fluent Chinese. In Chinese President Hu Jintang's previous visit to the White House, Michelle Kwan spoke extensively to him in Chinese.(President Jintang doesn't speak English)

However, Michelle's parents speak one of the Cantonese dialects, and President Hu's first language is Mandarin. Michelle is studying Mandarin in school, but i do not think she is at all fluent.

 

[seniorita]

What does it mean: she was down playing her comment?

Oh my generation has definitely forced an evolution in the American English language. We've really butchered it. "Like" is high on my pet peeve list.

I think you are just jealous cause you werent invited to that state steak dinner. YOU are very strict lady with mistakes and Michelle. I m sending you a pm ...ummm, lets see...ummm ...LIKE never again.
If Kurt was saying the same you wouldnt even notice it.


I kid

 

[Olympia]

However, Michelle's parents speak one of the Cantonese dialects, and President Hu's first language is Mandarin. Michelle is studying Mandarin in school, but i do not think she is at all fluent.

That's what I've heard too, Math. Additionally, though President Hu doesn't speak English (or probably Cantonese), I'm fairly sure an interpreter would accompany him at all times, so anyone speaking with him would be translated, and Mr. Hu's conversation would be translated back into English. So while Michelle may have exchanged some words in Mandarin with him, she likely wasn't dependent on her proficiency in the language for this encounter.

Seniorita, wouldn't it have been fun for a bunch of us GS fans to have had a table at that dinner? Of course, we would probably have elbowed past President Hu to get to Michelle, so it's best that we were safely away from there. We can dream, though!

 

[Mathman]

What does it mean: she was down playing her comment?

"Downplaying" (technically, it should be one word ) means not making a big deal out of something. Like, Michelle was trying not to sound pompous and self-important by her use of language.

When I was in the seventh grade there was a big push to make children stop saying the slangy "yeah" for "yes." The teacher maintained a "Yeah List." Every time you said "yeah" you got another check by your name on the Yeah List.

After every student had about 200 check marks, the school decided to abandon the project.

...we would probably have elbowed past President Hu to get to Michelle, so it's best that we were safely away from there. We can dream, though!

President Who? Which way to the Kween!

We should have crashed the party like those society people who snuck into the party for the Prime Minister of India a few months ago.

 

[Bluebonnet]

What does it mean: she was down playing her comment?


I think you are just jealous cause you werent invited to that state steak dinner. YOU are very strict lady with mistakes and Michelle. I m sending you a pm ...ummm, lets see...ummm ...LIKE never again.
If Kurt was saying the same you wouldnt even notice it.

I kid

Oh, thanks to Mathman for the rescure! It must be an American English that I picked up, but didn't know it was one word.

It was lobster dinner (not steak dinner) - my favorite. I'm like um...mmm.

 

[lavender]

Wow...what happened. This was a light nice thread.

 

[seniorita]

When I was in the seventh grade there was a big push to make children stop saying the slangy "yeah" for "yes." The teacher maintained a "Yeah List." Every time you said "yeah" you got another check by your name on the Yeah List.

HOw many checks did you have?
From a non native speaker point of view, yeah sounds like "I m only saying yes to get rid of you"

Seniorita, wouldn't it have been fun for a bunch of us GS fans to have had a table at that dinner? Of course, we would probably have elbowed past President Hu to get to Michelle, so it's best that we were safely away from there. We can dream, though!

That would be great, but I dont think I have the dress for it, I was never invited to a White House before

 

[Lilith11]

That's what I've heard too, Math. Additionally, though President Hu doesn't speak English (or probably Cantonese), I'm fairly sure an interpreter would accompany him at all times, so anyone speaking with him would be translated, and Mr. Hu's conversation would be translated back into English. So while Michelle may have exchanged some words in Mandarin with him, she likely wasn't dependent on her proficiency in the language for this encounter.

Seniorita, wouldn't it have been fun for a bunch of us GS fans to have had a table at that dinner? Of course, we would probably have elbowed past President Hu to get to Michelle, so it's best that we were safely away from there. We can dream, though!

Depends. Cantonese is afterall the second most spoken dialect in China after standard Chinese and it is possible for someone to be unable to speak Cantonese but still be able to understand it, since Cantonese and standard Mandarin share numerous phonetic and grammatical similarities; you could say Cantonese is a mixture of the local dialect and traditional Chinese. Plus, if we're going to be specific, there are numerous different variations and dialects of Cantonese as well; for example, the language spoken in Taiwan is actually a variation of the Canton dialect :3

 

[Mathman]

From a non native speaker point of view, yeah sounds like "I m only saying yes to get rid of you"

That usage would be "yeah-yeah" in US English.

But I did have a question about the menu. Maybe someone with a knowledge of (Northern) Chinese dietary preference can weigh in.

The menu said both lobster and rib eye. I assume that is rib eye steak, rather than a standing rib roast (which makes for a spectacular presentation). I read somewhere that Obama's people asked Hu's people what sort of menu the guest of honor might prefer, and Hu opted for traditional U.S. of A., mom's apple pie and all.

Also, it was reported that Obama went with his own White House chef, rather than importing a fancy-schmancy outside chef for the occasion, which is common for State Dinners.

Anyway, here is my question. My feeling is that Chinese people in general do not like big, thick slabs of solid meat. They prefer dishes that have little pieces of meat in them. So for instance, a whole lobster tail, followed by a big ol' individual steak, might seem kind of gross and barbaric to President Hu.

(Obama could have gone whole hog with the traditional seven course meal featuring not only a fish dish and a meat dish, but also a game dish. In formal etiquette the only thing you are allowed to remove from your mouth is the buckshot that they killed the game with. )

 

[Violet Bliss]

Depends. Cantonese is afterall the second most spoken dialect in China after standard Chinese and it is possible for someone to be unable to speak Cantonese but still be able to understand it, since Cantonese and standard Mandarin share numerous phonetic and grammatical similarities; you could say Cantonese is a mixture of the local dialect and traditional Chinese. Plus, if we're going to be specific, there are numerous different variations and dialects of Cantonese as well; for example, the language spoken in Taiwan is actually a variation of the Canton dialect :3

Cantonese is the most spoken dialect since Putonghua (Mandarin) is the national language and not considered a dialect. However, Cantonese has such status because of stubornness to adopt the national language, because of Hongkong and because of Cantonese emmigrants overseas, especially to N America for railroad building. It is not widely spoken at all in China. IOW, it's a local language in Guandong Province (Canton). All Chinese dialects have the similar written base and grammer but they differ like French from English, having the same root words and similar, though more complex, grammar. Once an English speaker acquires the basic understanding of French, s/he can have pretty good educated guesses of the words' meanings and pronunciations. But to unaccustomed ears, they are completely different and incomprehensible. It's common for a Chinese to be exposed to and familiar enough with a different dialect to understand it without the ability to speak it. I don't know if President Hu speaks Cantonese but it's unlikely. He may have an ear for it. I don't know that either.

Taiwanese is not a Cantonese. It is a Fujian dialect, as spoken in the Fujian Province across the strait from Taiwan. There are many variations too, but Taiwanese is close to the Xiamen dialect. (Xiamen is the provincial capital.)

 

[Violet Bliss]

Anyway, here is my question. My feeling is that Chinese people in general do not like big, thick slabs of solid meat. They prefer dishes that have little pieces of meat in them. So for instance, a whole lobster tail, followed by a big ol' individual steak, might seem kind of gross and barbaric to President Hu.

The Chinese eat with chopsticks with which to pick up pre-cut mouth sized pieces of food. I am sure the head of state knows to do as the barbarians do when in barbarian land. Moreoevr, lobster is quite a delicacy in China so sampling it Western style is probably a welcome experience.

Did they actually serve a whole lobster tail followed by a big ol' individual steak? That is too much meat for most non-Americans.

(Obama could have gone whole hog with the traditional seven course meal featuring not only a fish dish and a meat dish, but also a game dish.

That is nothing compared to a regular 12 course Chinese dinner, not even at a state event. The trick is to eat slowly, over two hours or more, probably with entertainment sometime between courses.

In formal etiquette the only thing you are allowed to remove from your mouth is the buckshot that they killed the game with.

That's what a napkin is for, hiding both the act of spitting and what is spitted. Just do it by dabbing your mouth daintily. Practice before attending or crashing the party.

 

[Layfan]

That's what I've heard too, Math. Additionally, though President Hu doesn't speak English (or probably Cantonese), I'm fairly sure an interpreter would accompany him at all times, so anyone speaking with him would be translated, and Mr. Hu's conversation would be translated back into English. So while Michelle may have exchanged some words in Mandarin with him, she likely wasn't dependent on her proficiency in the language for this encounter.

Seniorita, wouldn't it have been fun for a bunch of us GS fans to have had a table at that dinner? Of course, we would probably have elbowed past President Hu to get to Michelle, so it's best that we were safely away from there. We can dream, though!

Ha! It would have been a stampede Michelle would have been mortified. But it would have been fun!

Nice to see that her dress got the right media attention.

Tonichelle: Do you really never say "like?" Kudos to you if you managed to grow up in our generation and not pick up that habit. I too think it's sounds terrible but I know I slip it in once in a while. Much less than when I was a teenager I hope!

As for "yeah," well. Yeah. The teachers lost that battle and it I'm definitely too young for it to make me cringe.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I don't like the youth lingo at all. Yeah, if someone goes, like, that's how we talk, dude, I go, I'm like offended.

 

[SeaniBu]

As interesting and exciting as this is I do not see at all why this is on the edge for post. It is not like Condi and MK hit the presidential rink.

Good for you MK, glad to see you there AGAIN. Now if you can get the economic stability of China with the Human rights of Canada here in the USA that would be great. I am sure that is your first priority.

On the last thought here, if you did not grow up speaking Chinese or have it prevalent in your family you do not speak or understand Chinese, rather you hear or say words that you know the meaning of and can construe meaning. Mandarin has a much more acceptable aspect to it - like understanding broken English - yet saying Chinese is not going to give you a full understanding.

 

[OS]

Hahaha.. i never thought I'd read the difference in Chinese dialect and region trends in a skating board, but I thought I throw in my 2 cents for anyone who's interested in Trivia of the East. Tip: Hopefully useful next time in Chinese restaurant to impress the boss, and may be get freebies.

Actually there's no such thing as a language as 'Taiwanese'. Taiwan is a country/providence who still consider themselves as the legitimate China (formal non communist government of The legitimate China in their minds - depends on which political party you talk to in Taiwan), so what they speak is called the 'National Language' in Taiwan (Guo Yu) which is also commonly called 'Putonghua' (Translation 'Common Language' in China) as stated SkateFiguring.

Taiwan's local dialect is more correctly called Min Nan Hua (Language of the Min nan - spoken in Xiamen - southern providence of Fujian. The language is also widely spoken among the SE Asia Chinese (Malaysia, Singapore) known as as Hokkien in Fujian dialect.) Bascially fujian is a providence known for its traders who travels outside the mainland, and eventually many of its Chinese population ends up migrate to other surrounding island through out south east Asia like Singapore (reason why it got independent from Malaysia - Chinese population), Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Taiwan etc. While HongKong, is more dominated by Canton / Guandong (same providence/different pronunciation) providence populations, dialect and culture.

In summary, PuTongHua (called 'Common Language' China)/ GuoYu (called 'National Language' in Taiwan), and Mandarin (English) are actually all the same language. The unofficial name for them all is actually called The BeiJing Language (also known as Peking language - Fujian romanisation of the same word). So in other words, the formal language all Chinese spoke belongs to the Chinese Capital. Except now Mandarin has been localised everywhere and evolved with regional flavours. So even you speak the same language, you can sort of tell where people are from, similar to American Texan accent, Boston, New York, California etc.

Another trivia, the 2 words 'Bei' 'Jing' that made up the word Beijing literally means 'North' 'Capital'. It is the capital of China.

The Japanese writing for Tokyo in formal Kanji is called 'East' 'Capital'.

The Chinese city NanJing = South Capital. So during the massacre of NanJing from Japan, it was no accident why it was picked. It was the East Capital attacking the South capital for symbolic power.

In fact the formal writing of Japan (Kanji) and Korea (Hanja) are actually all Chinese. Kanji / Hanji literally means 'Language of the Hans'. Which means China. In other words, it shows how China had been such a superpower in the past, it totally domineering other country's culture, similar to Latin domineered in the evolution of western languages, except even today, it is still widely adapted by Asian countries in general for formal use. For anyone interested in studying Asian history, anthropology, it is impossible for them not to learn Chinese because it was the formal trade language, and how royal (Korean/Japan) courts record their history too. Even today, most of the city names in Japan, and Korea area all written in the formal version of the Traditional Chinese characters.

What it means for skating? Well Michelle Kwan is in a very lucky time right now to pursue a career in diplomatic relations. If she can read and write Chinese, USA is lucky to have her. Because she is also one of the most well known American Chinese in the east. Given how much Yuna and Mao is big in Korea and Japan, it is impossible for them not to know about Michelle too.

 

[Olympia]

Wow, join a skating board and see the world! It's so great to be able to hear about different languages and cultures from people who have authentic knowledge of them. Thanks for all the information on Asian history and language!

I had heard about the etymology of Beijing and Nanjing, but didn't realize the sad reason for the attack on Nanjing during World War II. It makes you realize how much history is hidden in the words we carry with us. One other related city etymology I learned once was Chunjing (don't know the modern accepted spelling; we used to spell it Chunking)--the Middle Capital. Isn't the "chung" in Chunging the same as the element in China's ancient name for itself, Chung Kuo, the Middle Kingdom?

It does seem as if Michelle could be a huge asset to Chinese-American relations. Wouldn't that be lovely? We may not be the most popular sport in the United States, but we might turn out to have a considerable impact on global affairs. Not that we would have anything to do with it, of course, but we fans can bask in reflected glory! After all, we've known the Kween since she was twelve.

 

[Violet Bliss]

One other related city etymology I learned once was Chunjing (don't know the modern accepted spelling; we used to spell it Chunking)--the Middle Capital. Isn't the "chung" in Chunging the same as the element in China's ancient name for itself, Chung Kuo, the Middle Kingdom?

No. In this case, Chung is not "middle" and Jing is not "capital". Sorry.

Chongqing in Wiki.

One of the ways to know more about modern China is to see their amazing bridges.

 

[OS]

Wow, join a skating board and see the world! It's so great to be able to hear about different languages and cultures from people who have authentic knowledge of them. Thanks for all the information on Asian history and language!

I had heard about the etymology of Beijing and Nanjing, but didn't realize the sad reason for the attack on Nanjing during World War II. It makes you realize how much history is hidden in the words we carry with us. One other related city etymology I learned once was Chunjing (don't know the modern accepted spelling; we used to spell it Chunking)--the Middle Capital. Isn't the "chung" in Chunging the same as the element in China's ancient name for itself, Chung Kuo, the Middle Kingdom?

It does seem as if Michelle could be a huge asset to Chinese-American relations. Wouldn't that be lovely? We may not be the most popular sport in the United States, but we might turn out to have a considerable impact on global affairs. Not that we would have anything to do with it, of course, but we fans can bask in reflected glory! After all, we've known the Kween since she was twelve.

You are right Olympia that the name for China is literally 'Middle Kingdom'
(BTW more Trivia: England = Handsome Kingdom, America = Beautiful Kingdom.
But part of the reason the 2 countries are given the 'flattering' translated words has to do with how they pronounce the name of the country in English that is similar to Mandarin. If they think you are an important country, they will give you a flattering name, one that be fitting to your character and status.)

but I don't think Chunking refers to the word Middle 中, it is more like 重慶 (Translation: Repeat Celebration)

but you picked up on an interesting point. Chinese characters are totally different from alphabetical system which is designed to emulate the spoken language like English. In the east, Japanese do use the alphabetical system too, therefore make it more straightforward in concept to learn for a westerner. It write how it sounds.

In Chinese however, the same sounding tone depends on which other words and context it is being used can have literally 20-30 variation of the sound, and the 4 intonation per same sound can literally means hundreds or thousands variation of different characters. This makes it a clever, sophisticated and flexible language (almost too clever), because each word has very specific meaning but there need to be used correctly even though they sound the same. You can say there's no such thing as syllables in a Chinese word, because each word is always just one syllable.

Take the typical structure of Chinese poetry (Like the most popular Tang Dynasty version), depends on the formats: 4 words per sentence, 4 sentence per poetry, you can be very clever with how you interplaying with the words, even though they sound exactly the same when pronouncing it.

It might be useful to note that even though the Chinese language can be spoken with different dialects, the writing and the grammar rules is universal and easily understood. The only difference is whether it appears in the formal format: traditional (used in Taiwan, Hongkong (sort of), Singapore) or the simplified version (China / Malaysia, may be Japan(!)). Although simplified version has always existed in China, it was not as widely adapted until after the 2nd world war when Communist China want to improve literacy entirely across the mainland - I think Japan might have simplified their version after the 2nd world war too. It is rather sad actually, because IMHO it completely butchered the sophistication of the language. Majority of the older overseas generation Chinese however should be more familiar with the traditional, since they are either extradited, or follows the norm pre-date the war.).

It is worth noting that if you are to learn Chinese in China, you would have learnt the simplified (dumbed down) version characters; but if you learn in Taiwan, you will learn the original traditional Chinese, which is more sophisticated and intricate (more variation of the same word), but it will make you appreciate the language better, because there are actually symbolism, culture and anthropology behind each word. Some words are so interestingly constructed they almost look like Egyptian hieroglyphics. Most people who read Traditional Characters can read Simplified version well too, but usually not so easy the other way round.

(btw sorry board, I think I might have got carried away with my rants, but languages happen to be a passion of mine.)