Mirai Nagasu's future prospects

[Miss Ice]

Kim is really special. One of the best ever because her TES is so amazing and her artistry is also very strong.
Satoko is morphing into Kostner in the last quad. Look at her programs in the past 3 years, can you imagine anyone else that young can do those kind of programs? I don't think young Kim or young Asada or young Kostner had that kind of innate connection and interpretation.
It's too bad that her jumps aren't as explosive as Kim/Kostner or as ambitious as Asada because I think she's the future of this sport.

I don't know, I never particularly thought Kostner was more artistic than Mao/Yu-Na. She does have nice lines because of her height, but I actually found myself a lot more emotional and appreciative of artistry after Kim's/Asada's programs... Maybe it's just personal preference. Also, I don't remember how Kostner was at 16 or younger, so I may be biased. In any case, Yu-Na did her El Tango de Roxanne and Lark Ascending at 16, which were masterpieces well beyond her years. I am moved to tears everytime I see those two programs from Worlds, and I do not think she looked 16 at all there, she was literally transcending time.

Anyway, I do agree that Satoko's expressive skills and style are very impressive for her age, especially in this era. I also think she can do much better than Kostner, because technically she seems stronger, as well as emotionally. I don't see much similarity between them at all. Kostner also tended to crumble at the most important moments when faced with severe competition, so I hope (and think) that Satoko will not have a similar problem.

Sorry, but Mirai gets the PCS she deserves. The ladies that score higher have better programs and look interested for more than the final 30 seconds.

"Looking interested" wasn't a part of PCS the last time I checked. I do know that it consists of presentation, interpretation, and skating skills, all rather subjective. Except the skating skills. And I definitely think that Mirai has a much better interpretation of music, better flow transitions/skating skills than Wagner, so I would like to see her PCS be higher.

 

[hippomoomin]

I repeated watched Satoko's LP at JO and still don't get the level of artistry you are talking about. I agree she moves well, but those moves fall into my definition of being generic, and her transitions are far less complex than Elena's. I also noticed her upper shoulder/neck is kind of stiff--I barely see any movements in which she bend her upper body back, which limits the range of interpretation one can has. I don't call moving good in those generic movements being artistic, and I am thinking sometimes the lack of emotion/expression/personality is called maturity. She simply has a grownup's face when even she was 13. I also cannot vision her doing well with other "immature" type of program, such as sassy, playful…

Kim is really special. One of the best ever because her TES is so amazing and her artistry is also very strong.
Satoko is morphing into Kostner in the last quad. Look at her programs in the past 3 years, can you imagine anyone else that young can do those kind of programs? I don't think young Kim or young Asada or young Kostner had that kind of innate connection and interpretation.
It's too bad that her jumps aren't as explosive as Kim/Kostner or as ambitious as Asada because I think she's the future of this sport.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think the issue with discussing PCS is people tend to form an ideal style and then disregard other styles altogether. There are so many ways to attack PCS scores and even present programs (joyful, serious, literal, emotional, exaggerated, understated, soulful, zestful...etc...etc...) that when only one style becomes acceptable to someone or even if only one style becomes unacceptable to them the conversation is doomed. Then on top of that some people see nationality before even the above mentioned stuff. It tends to lead nowhere.

I think it might be time to stop equating PCS scores with being artistic too. I don't think SS,TR, or even P/E are artistic marks. Maybe P/E to some degree but maybe only the Performamce part. Sure CH and IN are artistic marks but then what....maybe half of PCS marks actually judge artistic qualities. Maybe that is generous to say even that.

 

[Miss Ice]

But PCS also has objective things like skating skills, who evaluation perhaps should be more transparent, imho. PCS is sort of the bane of the sport right now since you never know how merited these scores really are. I can think of a handful of situation where PCS were blatantly used by judges to boost a poor performance, and this is very concerning since the integrity of the sport is at stake.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm just saying people let their own biases or interpretations of good skating creep in and ruin a discussion. It seems quite difficult for some here to say"I don't see it that way but I can understand how someone else could." It's the reason we don't have one judge from one background at competitions. We have many judges who represent many styles of skating and backgrounds. What resonates with one might not so much with another. It's only a problem when someone comes along and says....this is how it has to be. Everyone else is wrong.

Marai has all the qualities necassary to get top level PCS. It is my opinion that the reason she doesn't is simply because she isn't consistent. Not even from competition to competition. I think her programs tend to be inconsistent within themselves. The UR and tendency to appear to lose focus and sell her character makes it easy for the judges to mark her lower. Sure she is capable of better scores...no one seems to argue the talent she has...her ability to be able to deliver a consistent strong program from start to finish is her only issue.

Crooked judging is a seperate issue that is as old as greed itself. No judging system can prevent that. But under the scoring system we have I think the majority do a fair job and just disagreeing with a judge doesn't mean they are corrupt. They might just value different qualities but they might be honestly doing it because they believe it. YMMV there.

 

[Miss Ice]

I guess a prime example of PCS being a tool was last WC when Kostner had highest or second highest PCS with two falls and nearly 30 seconds of just gliding down the ice doing nothing. I have nothing against Kostner but this is just a prime example of when the system really fails, and I am sure that it is not the last time this sort of thing happens and gets totally forgotten a few weeks (months) later.

I am just talking about a more fundamental problem which probably is discouraging to many young athletes, because it may seem nearly impossible for them to attain these scores when they have been "set" or are being upheld for certain skaters by the judges.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I guess a prime example of PCS being a tool was last WC when Kostner had highest or second highest PCS with two falls and nearly 30 seconds of just gliding down the ice doing nothing. I have nothing against Kostner but this is just a prime example of when the system really fails, and I am sure that it is not the last time this sort of thing happens and gets totally forgotten a few weeks (months) later.

To be fair, Carolina is arguably the best skater in the world on most PCS criteria other than TR, especially so in an event that Yuna isn't skating at like last season's Worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

"Looking interested" wasn't a part of PCS the last time I checked. I do know that it consists of presentation, interpretation, and skating skills, all rather subjective. Except the skating skills. And I definitely think that Mirai has a much better interpretation of music, better flow transitions/skating skills than Wagner, so I would like to see her PCS be higher.

I actually found Ashley putting more transitions, such as turns in both directions, in her program so I don't necessarily agree that Mirai is better there. Neither skater is particularly fast across the ice, so I don't know if I'd give one the edge in skating skills.

 

[Chemistry66]

A cover of "He's a Pirate" just started playing on my Pandora shuffle mix and I had flashbacks to Mirai's Worlds skate.

 

[TMC]

I think the issue with discussing PCS is people tend to form an ideal style and then disregard other styles altogether. There are so many ways to attack PCS scores and even present programs (joyful, serious, literal, emotional, exaggerated, understated, soulful, zestful...etc...etc...) that when only one style becomes acceptable to someone or even if only one style becomes unacceptable to them the conversation is doomed. Then on top of that some people see nationality before even the above mentioned stuff. It tends to lead nowhere.

A million times this

 

[FlattFan]

I don't know, I never particularly thought Kostner was more artistic than Mao/Yu-Na. She does have nice lines because of her height, but I actually found myself a lot more emotional and appreciative of artistry after Kim's/Asada's programs... Maybe it's just personal preference. Also, I don't remember how Kostner was at 16 or younger, so I may be biased. In any case, Yu-Na did her El Tango de Roxanne and Lark Ascending at 16, which were masterpieces well beyond her years. I am moved to tears everytime I see those two programs from Worlds, and I do not think she looked 16 at all there, she was literally transcending time.

I agree that 16yo Kim was much more artistic than 16-19yo Kostner. However, Kim doesn't have that last growth that Kostner had the past 3-4 years. Kim was just progressing along whereas Kostner was morphing into something else.
Satoko is already in that stage that took Kostner her entire career to find herself. This is the most exciting girl in many many years.

She reminds me of the young Midori. When Midori first started, people were amazed at her TES. I think a lot of people are now amazed at Satoko's programs.

 

[Jammers]

I agree that 16yo Kim was much more artistic than 16-19yo Kostner. However, Kim doesn't have that last growth that Kostner had the past 3-4 years. Kim was just progressing along whereas Kostner was morphing into something else.
Satoko is already in that stage that took Kostner her entire career to find herself. This is the most exciting girl in many many years.

She reminds me of the young Midori. When Midori first started, people were amazed at her TES. I think a lot of people are now amazed at Satoko's programs.

Yuna essentially retired after 2010 and never returned to full time competition that and the fact her heart wasn't really into competing anymore is why her skating didn't progress between 2010-14. A committed Yuna skating full time would have still been unbeatable in the next four years After Vancouver.

 

[OS]

lol... well I find it more believable of a statement that Kostner skate like a 16 years old Satoko than a 16 years old Satoko skate like Kostner. Let's just leave it to that.

Satoko is certainly unique among the new generation of skaters. She appears to me some ready made 80 years old soul spirited away into a 15 years old body, possibly product of those weird seances JSF over did it in their prayers looking to replenish their team without a Mao holding the fort, except how completely different from Mao can you get. As if innocence, childishness, adolescent, delight and charm have completely whisked by and entrapped her into tiny body. Combine them together, you may get closer to the ideal skater who can bring in the money/tickets as well as the medals.

The one toned maturity seemingly devoid of personality, wispy mosquito skating vs the nuanced tonal maturity of a seasoned veteran of strength, power and athleticism (even a Wagner or a Mirai) is going to be something continually debated in this SPORT... and SHOULD BE. If figure skating can be separated into fly weight, feather weight, middle weight, heavy weight on a like to like basis (arguably it should with age and height as well, since the younger and the shorter skater tends to have more natural flexibility and find it easier with jumps), Satoko squarely belong fly weight. Satoko does stand out from the Russian babies though, for her reserved mature and sophisticated presentation is 180 degree separation from the garish tackiness and abrasiveness of some of her counter parts.

As for Mirai, love her attack her programs again. That fighting spirit and attack was what initially attracted me to her as a skater, that and her special charisma (missing from her competitive programs past quads) hope she keeps it up and rediscover it again some how. So fine, she will never get the fair PCS she once received, but keep up the good fight and keep looking for that silver lining. She need to over come the faults of her programs, and find substance above generics and rise to the occasion. (Tip watch Daisuke 2012 season)

 

[OS]

Yuna essentially retired after 2010 and never returned to full time competition that and the fact her heart wasn't really into competing anymore is why her skating didn't progress between 2010-14. A committed Yuna skating full time would have still been unbeatable in the next four years After Vancouver.

I have to disagree with her skating hasn't progressed, her programs like Kiss of a Vampire, Homage to Korea, Giselle, Adios are outstanding works, and her skating skills have actually improved. These are hardly safe generic easy listening princess vanilla programs that pretty much plagues ladies figure skating. I naturally have problems with people's definition of what is deemed artistic anyway, but spent too much time discussing it on other threads already.

I'd further add, her medal count this quads has less to do with what she were able to bring to the ice on the day relative to everyone else, but being held to a different standard because of who she is. She is likely to have been a great inconvenience for ISU who seems to have bent backwards determined to compensate powerful federations in turns for their 'benefits in kind'. Ultimately whatever excellence and quality she were able to bring on 2 occasions these past quads failed to overcame the politics of this sport.

 

[Miss Ice]

I have to disagree with you there, her programs like Kiss of a Vampire, Homage to Korea, Giselle, Adios are really outstanding work for me, and her skating skills have actually improved. These are hardly safe generic easy listening princess vanilla programs that pretty much plagues ladies figure skating. I naturally have problems with people's definition of what is deemed artistic anyway, but spent too much time discussing it on other threads already.

I agree, Kiss of the Vampire, Les Miserables, and Adios Nonino are masterpieces. I don't think any other lady can ever pull off a tango that way, and Adios Nonino was definitely a peak in her musical intricacy and interpretation. Meanwhile, Les Mis was a peak in interpretation + style + technique. The only thing about Yuna that hasn't improved post-2010 are her spins, but she's had a lot of back problems - and, they actually still maintained their precision despite being less flexible.

Satoko does stand out from the Russian babies though, for her reserved mature and sophisticated presentation is 180 degree separation from the garish tackiness and abrasiveness of some of her counter parts.

I agree with you, again. Her style really does stand out.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So how do you guys think Mirai will fair at Skate America?

Seems like a good place for her to recieve a boost. The crowd should be behind her and if she delivers the judges might as well. It seems like home ice is as good as any to improve on PCS marks. :think:

 

[Icey]

I think she could probably use some encouragement. Hope she does well.

 

[Layfan]

I'd love to know what Tom says to Mirai about her stony expression. With everything else to work on _ URs etc _ is there even time to focus on it? But the stoniness has to go. She has the musicality, pretty good lines and a fairly good ability to extend her moves. But her grimness takes away from everything and looks a bit immature.
I did think she displayed more attack an energy than in recent years - she just has to show it in her face!

 

[OS]

I'd love to know what Tom says to Mirai about her stony expression. With everything else to work on _ URs etc _ is there even time to focus on it? But the stoniness has to go. She has the musicality, pretty good lines and a fairly good ability to extend her moves. But her grimness takes away from everything and looks a bit immature.
I did think she displayed more attack an energy than in recent years - she just has to show it in her face!

Mirai need an extra shot of Radionova and DivaWagner along with Red bull. (She need wings)

 

[kwanatic]

Mirai need an extra shot of Radionova and DivaWagner along with Red bull. (She need wings)