New Hersh Article- says Kwan probably won't be at December event

[kyla2]

Mathman

Oh no, I don't want that old scenario again. I don't care if it has to be Irina (and I don't mean that as badly as it sounds because I like and respect Irina), but I don't want a newbie to win it. LET THEM PAY THEIR DUES FIRST, THEN WE'LL TALK. You really aren't doing the newbies a favor either. They become one shot wonders and ultimately forgettable because they weren't in the sport long enough.

 

[R.D.]

Oh no, I don't want that old scenario again. I don't care if it has to be Irina (and I don't mean that as badly as it sounds because I like and respect Irina), but I don't want a newbie to win it. LET THEM PAY THEIR DUES FIRST, THEN WE'LL TALK. You really aren't doing the newbies a favor either. They become one shot wonders and ultimately forgettable because they weren't in the sport long enough.

Sorry, but I JUST DON'T GET this "one should pay their dues" argument.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll say again that the OGM IS NOT A LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD.

Why should one "pay their dues" before going to the Olympics? Hey, if you can go, and the rules permit you to go, why not go? Why deny somebody who is of age and is perfectly fit enough to go just because he/she "hasn't paid their dues"? I'm lost here. Can someone explain this to me?

Anyway, the Olympics are simply a competition- just like any other. It happens to be the most prestigious competition, too. Maybe one should rewrite the rules and say, Only Skaters Who Are Over 20 Years Old, Have Struggled In At Least Four Major Competitions, And Have Medalled At Worlds Can Go. Yay, an Olympics with FIVE skaters! Simply stunning...

 

[Mathman]

Maybe one should rewrite the rules and say, Only Skaters Who Are Over 20 Years Old, Have Struggled In At Least Four Major Competitions, And Have Medalled At Worlds Can Go.

Well, my suggestion was that these are the skaters who should be banned. Like rollerball in the Mad Max movies, once you win worlds, the crowd tears you to pieces to make room for the next hero.

A little less drastically, winning a gold medal just can't mean as much to a twenty-five year old as it does to a fifteen year old. That's just human nature. Think back to when you were fifteen, and how important it seemed to you at that age to win that basketball game.

I think Kyla was just saying that she was hoping for a more mature and artistic champion this year, not that there should be any change in the eligibility rules.

MM

 

[R.D.]

A little less drastically, winning a gold medal just can't mean as much to a twenty-five year old as it does to a fifteen year old. That's just human nature. Think back to when you were fifteen, and how important it seemed to you at that age to win that basketball game.

Yeah...who can picture Irina Slutskaya screaming and jumping up and down if SHE wins next year? And I mean a Tara-like scream, too.

I'm sure the OGM medalist will be very happy and emotional. But I think the cards are def. lined up for someone older to win it this time. Even Miki Ando isn't 15 or 16 (IIRC) like Hughes and Lipinski were. And all our top contenders are pretty old, too. Kwan, Arakawa, and Slutskaya are well into their 20s I believe, Cohen's in her early 20s, (I don't know how old Kostner, et al are, though).

 

[Mathman]

Kostner will be 19 on February 8.
Ando will be 18 on December 18
Alissa was 18 on June 18

So that leaves it all up to Kimmie -- she was just 16 on October 4.

MM

 

[kyla2]

Thanks MM!!

Thanks MM, you said what I meant to say in far fewer words. I want someone with a mature and artistic skating style to win. I agree with you Red Dog when you say it isn't a life time achievement award (lol) but it shouldn't be given to an immature skater and they are ALL immature in my opinion (Kimmie, Carolina, Mao, etc).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks MM, you said what I meant to say in far fewer words. I want someone with a mature and artistic skating style to win. I agree with you Red Dog when you say it isn't a life time achievement award (lol) but it shouldn't be given to an immature skater and they are ALL immature in my opinion (Kimmie, Carolina, Mao, etc).

I don't know the definition of maturity, but they've given out several gold Olys to teenyboppers who skate in the smiling bubbly style with the expression "Am I not the most darling skater you've ever seen?" Beats a serious contender every time.

Joe

 

[kyla2]

Joe.

I know that "cute" is a big seller. But I don't think Tara won it because she was cute. She had a triple loop-triple loop and a joi de vivre in her LP that won over a more , how shall I say it, "methodical" program of Lyra by Michelle. I could have seen it going either way, but frankly, I would have given it to Michelle. She skated two brilliant programs at the Olympics. But that was out of my hands. Nancy didn't win because she had some flaws in her performance and choreographically it didn't match up with Oksana's (she did not skate from the waist up as I have heard people complain). HOWEVER, I do agree that "cute" and jumps won Mao her medal over Sasha. Even wih the fall, Sasha should have won. Mao's presentation was extremely juvenile (sorry that's how I feel). If Sasha had fallen at the beginning, or twice, then I could have seen it costing her the medal but her performance was otherwise brilliant and compelling. Under 6.0 she probably would have won it, IMO.

 

[gezando]

Joe, if judges are rewarding teenies, how they chose Cohen over Angela to the olys team is also an example. There is a lot of resentment (and I know you are not one of them) recently towards Mao the complete skater just because she outskated Cohen fair and square. Mao is unjustly reduced by posters as jumping bean. She is much more than a jumping bean, she can spin, she outspeeds, out variaiotn of speed Cohen by a mile. I have never heard anything as ridiculous as Susie saying Cohen's facial emotion is more than enough to make up for her fall on the triple sal. Susie et al are not swallowing the sour grapes too well IMO
Cohen should count herself lucky b/c she is skating under COP, uinder the 6.0 system that emphasized jumps more than spins, Cohen probably would be in 4rd place behind Mao and Arakawa. Cohen was cautious, slow, with way too much arm flailing in TEB lp, JMO

 

[nymkfan51]

Cohen should count herself lucky b/c she is skating under COP, uinder the 6.0 system that emphasized jumps more than spins, Cohen probably would be in 4rd place behind Mao and Arakawa. Cohen was cautious, slow, with way too much arm flailing in TEB lp, JMO

You know, I wonder about that gezando. I originally thought COP would be a big plus for Sasha too, but think about this. Under 6.0, slight 2 foots or partially underrotated jumps would basically be overlooked as long as they weren't too serious a mistake. But under COP, the judges specifically deduct for each one of these errors. And Sasha has a lot of these kinds of problems with her jumps. Looking at the protocols for TEB, she hardly had any jumps that didn't have -GOES. I can't help but feel this affected her PCS scores too.
I loved her program, but those little mistakes add up.

 

[gezando]

nymkfan

IIRC under 6.0 two foot jumps are not considered completed jumps, and receive no credit all at. I think sometimes skaters got credit because under 6.0 judges don't have instant replay or they don't have an extra set of eyes i.e. the callers to help them, and the judges just missed the two foot . I agree under 6.0 under rotated jumps do get credit, but Cohen never has under rotation problems though.

 

[nymkfan51]

I understand what you're saying gezando, but many of Sasha's 2 footed jumps are not easily seen, and under 6.0 I don't think judges were looking too closely for them.
Maybe it's 6 of one, half dozen of another ... in any case, she needs to fix the jumps.

 

[R.D.]

I understand what you're saying gezando, but many of Sasha's 2 footed jumps are not easily seen, and under 6.0 I don't think judges were looking too closely for them.
Maybe it's 6 of one, half dozen of another ... in any case, she needs to fix the jumps.

...and I'm not sure that's something that can be done in two months. She's running out of time...quickly.

 

[nymkfan51]

...and I'm not sure that's something that can be done in two months. She's running out of time...quickly.

I suspect you're right Red Dog, but I think the last thing she needs at this point is new, more difficult choreography.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I know that "cute" is a big seller.

Let's not hash this out puhleese lol. It's been over done so many times and the opponents wont give in.

However the topic was maturity and neither the two foot landings of Oksana, or the surgar rush of Tara could exactly be called mature.
And Mao had more technical than any Oksana and Tara put together. Not just my opinion. Check it out.

I think Mao was as terrific as the former Oly winners.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

You know, I wonder about that gezando. I originally thought COP would be a big plus for Sasha too, but think about this. Under 6.0, slight 2 foots or partially underrotated jumps would basically be overlooked as long as they weren't too serious a mistake. But under COP, the judges specifically deduct for each one of these errors. And Sasha has a lot of these kinds of problems with her jumps. Looking at the protocols for TEB, she hardly had any jumps that didn't have -GOES. I can't help but feel this affected her PCS scores too.
I loved her program, but those little mistakes add up.

I think when COP was initially implemented, Sasha DID benefit. Sasha's strength was always more geared towards great non-jump elements than stellar jump elements. Mistakes (both small a large) on jumps were Sasha's nemisis under 6.0, and IMO are still her nemisis under COP. The problem is that other skaters, now that COP has been in place for a couple of years, is rewarding non-jump elements and other skaters have caught up to Sasha to varying degrees in this area. When COP was introduced, lots of skaters suffered while playing "catch up" in the spins, spirals and footwork departments. Many of them have made significant improvements, closing the gap that Sasha originally had there. Mean time, Sasha has done less IMO, to catch up to many other skaters in the jump execution department. Still way to many large and small mistakes.

I have always loved watching Sasha skate, and still do. But from a technical perspective jumps were her biggest problem under 6.0, and they remain her biggest problem IMO under COP. Sasha needs to improve at least as much in the jump department as others have improved in the non-jump department to regain an edge. And while she only fell once at TEB, when you consider the other lesser (than falls) mistakes on her other jumps, she still has a ways to go to reach the top of the podium.

Mean time, BIG credit to Sasha for two years running as the World Silver Medalist. That's no small feat - so I'm just nit picking about what I think her weaknesses are if she wants to stand atop the podium at Oly's and/or World's. And I do believe that's where she wants to be.

DG

 

[R.D.]

I think when COP was initially implemented, Sasha DID benefit. Sasha's strength was always more geared towards great non-jump elements than stellar jump elements. Mistakes (both small a large) on jumps were Sasha's nemisis under 6.0, and IMO are still her nemisis under COP. The problem is that other skaters, now that COP has been in place for a couple of years, is rewarding non-jump elements and other skaters have caught up to Sasha to varying degrees in this area. When COP was introduced, lots of skaters suffered while playing "catch up" in the spins, spirals and footwork departments. Many of them have made significant improvements, closing the gap that Sasha originally had there. Mean time, Sasha has done less IMO, to catch up to many other skaters in the jump execution department. Still way to many large and small mistakes.

More or less, this is what happened. I agree BTW.

Still, you're right that Second in the World isn't really all that bad. It's funny that a skater that's "bad" in so many areas can achieve this. Now, she's not going up to first unless she DOES something to improve. Only one spot up, and infinitely many more down.

 

[kyla2]

Joe

I know Mao had more technical than Sasha, Shiz and Joannie. That's not my point. Her presentation was way too meagre too win as far as I am concerned. Much more immature than Oksana and Tara in fact. She's clearly just a little kid who jumps really well. Why in GOD'S name should that be enough to win against Sasha and Shiz??? If that's the big ticket, why should anyone bother doing anything other than triple-triple-double's??? Why bother with choreogrpahy, line and extension????

 

[Doggygirl]

I know Mao had more technical than Sasha, Shiz and Joannie. That's not my point. Her presentation was way too meagre too win as far as I am concerned. Much more immature than Oksana and Tara in fact. She's clearly just a little kid who jumps really well. Why in GOD'S name should that be enough to win against Sasha and Shiz??? If that's the big ticket, why should anyone bother doing anything other than triple-triple-double's??? Why bother with choreogrpahy, line and extension????

IMO, the technical aspects of skating are now being rewarded in a more robust fashion than under 6.0. Jumps + presentation ruled the day in a somewhat equal fashion under the old system (IMO) and the technical part didn't even require an explanation or actual score - just an ordinal.

The TES is a technical mark, but many aspects of the PCS (as currently described, whether implemented correctly or not) IMO does NOT equal the old presentation mark - technical issues are dealt with in PCS as well. IMO it takes a technically competent skater to meet the criteria for a high score, especially in SS and PE for sure, and TR to some extent. Emoting and facial expressions (just to use a couple of examples of phrases used) don't figure into that, at least not in the same way IMO those qualities used to under 6.0 and the very generic Presentation mark.

Maybe what the ISU, USFSA, etc. need to REALLY evaluate is their best avenue to break this all down into what works better if you consider FS a competitive sport, v. what works better if you consider this art (or art / sport). And which avenue will draw the most viewers and sponsors going forward. And I certainly don't have the answer to that one!

DG

 

[gezando]

If TEB was skated under 6.0 rules, and Cohen came in third in the lp she would be 3rd overall. I still don't understand why some RdCF is so bent out of shape becaue Mao beat Cohen, afterall Mao won't even be at Olys, the RdCF should thank the skating gods that Mao won't be at Torino.

IMO even with the deductions, the judges were way too generous with Cohen's TES scores.