New Hersh Article- says Kwan probably won't be at December event

[R.D.]

What's the RdCF?

 

[gezando]

Maybe what the ISU, USFSA, etc. need to REALLY evaluate is their best avenue to break this all down into what works better if you consider FS a competitive sport, v. what works better if you consider this art (or art / sport). And which avenue will draw the most viewers and sponsors going forward. And I certainly don't have the answer to that one!

Some of my friends refuse to watch f.s. because they think it is just a beauty pagent on ice. LOL, if it is a beauty pagent on ice then the other Asada, i.e. Mai will still beat Cohen IMO

 

[R.D.]

Some of my friends refuse to watch f.s. because they think it is just a beauty pagent on ice. LOL, if it is a beauty pagent on ice then the other Asada, i.e. Mai will still beat Cohen IMO

Are there any other skaters besides Cohen that you think need a tremendous makeover? Just curious.

 

[gezando]

Are there any other skaters besides Cohen that you think need a tremendous makeover? Just curious.

I don't think Cohen needs a tremendous makeover, I said in another thread that she is a sure bet for oly silver. No matter what she does, she won't be able to beat a healthy Irina. Since Mao won't be at Torino, and judges consistently hold down Arakawan in favor of Cohen, Sasha is on her way to olys silver. If Irina retires after Torino, then Cohen will be a sure bet for world gold, and she better grab the chance this year, next year Mao will be old enough to compete in world

 

[R.D.]

Thanks for your answer. I was just wondering since you're constantly dealing out harsh criticism re. Cohen. I hear you talk that way about almost no one else.

 

[havanamesa1]

I don't know the definition of maturity, but they've given out several gold Olys to teenyboppers who skate in the smiling bubbly style with the expression "Am I not the most darling skater you've ever seen?" Beats a serious contender every time.Joe

Yes, and it won't be any different this Olympic season, except for the winner's age. Irina is a "cute" and charming skater who can jump, but can't do anything above an ugly skating performance every step of the way (as JanJam has pointed out, and I so totally agree, and more): ugly jump entrances and exits, ugly line, ugly positions, ugly head-arm-leg movements, ugly choreography, non-existent artistry, non-existent centering, ugly Biellmanns, ugly Biellmanns, and more ugly Biellmanns. So this Olympic season we'll be seeing a gold medalist who offers NOTHING but big jumps and a cute smile.

 

[jesslily]

Irina never had god traditional spirals. Now she depends on that she can do biellman spin position spirals to make points. It's true they don't look good either. But judges buy it. You have to agree that Irina is very healthy and strong. Strong body, strong mind. So at competitions she is more powerful, confident, and at ease. That makes her look great.

 

[havanamesa1]

Irina never had god traditional spirals. Now she depends on that she can do biellman spin position spirals to make points. It's true they don't look good either. But judges buy it. You have to agree that Irina is very healthy and strong. Strong body, strong mind. So at competitions she is more powerful, confident, and at ease. That makes her look great.

I agree. Her strength and confidence definitely make her look great to the judges who are just lapping up everything Irina (like many other people, I applaud her perseverance to overcome the odds and wish her well; unlike these judges, however, I wouldn't equate her sob story with 8.0s for her ugly skating).

I must also say Irina looks not just powerful but VERY powerful these days (especially if you compare her performances these last two seasons to how she was years ago when she'd get weak during the last half of her skate). She's so strong, in fact, that for someone who is supposed to have some serious illness that requires constant medication, she has more power and energy than ANY of her perfectly healthy competitors. Maybe next year, we'll have someone with a major hip injury or some serious heart ailment totally overcoming the stress of training and competitions and executes one quintuple jump after the other, contest after contest after contest -- and in the last two minutes of each of her LPs yet! Oh, well...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

kyla - I know I come down on Tara and Oksana much too often but I can't help it. One beat Kwan; the other beat Kerrigan. And those not in favor of either Kwan and Kerrigan were just so delighted that they lost to little girls that I could not help but 'get even' using the performance of Mao. Apparently World News Tonight thought the same.

Imo, and it's really obvious anyway, that 16 y.o girls do not have the depth of older ladies. This is not a put down of little girls. It's just fact. The music these two skaters used was more like a 'sing Johnny, one note'. the music had no color to it other than it's basic tempo, and T and O did skate to non varying types of music and could only express the bubbly type of emotion which they did very very well. I am not saying they didn't do their thing well. Imo, I can understand Tara's win but Nancy's, to me, was more political. ATTN ALL: let's not get involved with old baggage here. The subjedct is Mao and her being compared with Tara and Oksana.

Whether or not Tara or Oksana skated more maturely than Mao is moot. I leave that up to the viewers, but I would say if we score maturity as an item of the three there would not be more than one tenth of a point difference. So pick whom you think was the most mature. The Technical there is no case. Mao is way above the field.

BTW, I would have put Sasha first, too, but I was trying to explain what happens with exceptionally talented teenyboppers in the eyes of the judges and crowd.

Joe

 

[gezando]

RD Pot kettle black. You went off topic just for that??

 

[Mathman]

What's the RdCF?

I'll guess "Radical Cohen Fans" (or Rabid Dog Cohen Fans")

So this Olympic season we'll be seeing a gold medalist who offers NOTHING but big jumps and a cute smile.

There is a certain irony in this. The whole point of the CoP was that it was supposed to encourage the "complete skater" by giving points for high level spins and step sequences, thus de-emphasizing the relative importance of jumps.

Similarly, on the program component side, it was supposed to give stricter guidlines as to what judges should be looking for in terms of transitions, interpretation, etc. Precisely so that someone couldn't win the judges hearts just with a cute smile.

MM

 

[Mathman]

Maybe what the ISU, USFSA, etc. need to REALLY evaluate is their best avenue to break this all down into what works better if you consider FS a competitive sport, v. what works better if you consider this art (or art / sport). And which avenue will draw the most viewers and sponsors going forward. And I certainly don't have the answer to that one!

That's the million dollar question. But in my humble opinion it will never be answered, and if it were ever settled one way of the other, that would be the death of figure skating.

I don't think spectators will ever care much about a contest in which the only point of interest is that Kwan did a jump for 4.5 points and Irina did a spin for 4.6 points.

On the other hand, beauty contests have fallen on hard times, too. The Miss America Pageant used to be big, but now it can't find a TV network willing to show it.

To me, figure skating's only hope is to maintain its mystique, neither fish nor foul, complete with its tradition of judging controversies, wuzrobbin', and all the rest.

JMO

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I hope they take up the 2 part judging system. It needs it badly.

Joe

 

[kyla2]

Doggygirl, Joe, MM

Doggygirl, I totally agree with your post about what has happened under CoP to the presentation side of the sport. Joe, thanks for your post. We essentially agree. MM, that's the million dollar question. How is the sport really going to end up. I believe that if there is no consistency in how skater's are judged (artistic skating versus muscle skating), it will become completely confusing to viewers and alienate many who love the sport. I also believe the intrinsic beauty of the sport is what keeps people coming back. No beauty, no viewership, no endorsements, no money. I don't want to see hockey skaters on the ice doing triple-triple-doubles.

 

[Doggygirl]

I hope they take up the 2 part judging system. It needs it badly.

Joe

I'm with you there Joe.

Kyla, in terms of "artistic skating" v. "muscle skating" I think that's a style and style preference issue that existed in 6.0, does exist in COP, and will exist in any future judging systems. Part of what makes skating interesting is that skaters have different styles with which they present what they do. But I believe a "technical bar" was always in place and had to be met even under 6.0, to recieve high presentation scores. I just never really figured out what the bar was. As an example, by recent 6.0 standards (the last few years it was in place) I don't recall ever seeing lovely skaters who weren't up to the "elite" on the technical side getting scores of say, 4.9 for technical, and 5.9 for presentation. Or at least that's my impression based on limited TV viewing.

I like COP personally because of access to the score sheets, and the ability to make some sense of things from the judges point of view that weren't available before. I'm becoming a more knowledgeable fan because of this access to detailed information. That gets a thumbs up from me!

DG

 

[Mathman]

I like COP personally because of access to the score sheets, and the ability to make some sense of things from the judges point of view that weren't available before.

I totally agree with this aspect of the NJS. Before, I'm sitting in front of the TV going, Hey, Emanuel Sandhu looked cooler out there than Michael Weiss, how come the judges gave it to Weiss? What's with these judges, are they idiots or crooks?

But now, they still may be idiots and crooks -- what's the fun of figure skating if you can't say that? -- but, like Doggygirl says, I can look at all those numbers and see what the judges saw that I didn't. :agree:

MM

 

[Rgirl]

There is a certain irony in this. [Re Havenmesa's quote that essentially we'll have an OGM with big jumps and a cute smile, meaning Irina, I assume.] The whole point of the CoP was that it was supposed to encourage the "complete skater" by giving points for high level spins and step sequences, thus de-emphasizing the relative importance of jumps.

Similarly, on the program component side, it was supposed to give stricter guidlines as to what judges should be looking for in terms of transitions, interpretation, etc. Precisely so that someone couldn't win the judges hearts just with a cute smile.

Oh, yeah, that's all Irina is. Big jumps and a cute smile. She blows every other woman off the ice with her speed, edges, spins, control, and pure energy but because she's not a lyrical skater, some reduce her to "BJCS" (Big Jumps Cute Smile). What unjustifiable baloney.

For example, on the men's side, we see Plushenko who has the big jumps and all the technical stuff, but also the finesse and fine tuning that I find better than any of the women, ANY of them, in the last 10 years.

Then we have Buttle going blade to blade with Lambiel. And the big muscle skater, Joubert, isn't doing so well. And lyrical, attention to detail, no quad Johnny Weir comes in fourth at '05 Worlds injured.

I like the COP, despite its bumps in the road at present--ITA with Joe that it needs a technical and component panel of judges--precisely because, at least so far, the best skaters have won no matter what their style. With 6.0, if you weren't a lyrical skater with pinkies lifted and pained looks of emotion, you might as well forget it.

OTOH, I must say that it's only been in the four years since SLC that Irina seems to have found and perfected her natural style. No more opera or ballet music, but rather, Irina music and Irina style of skating. I find it magnificent when done well, just as I find lyrical skating magnificent when done well--as well as everything in between.

Rgirl

 

[kyla2]

Hmmm....

Maybe my problem is that I don't think they pay enough attention to PCS even when they break down the scores. I mean, how can you compare Mao's presentation with Sasha's?? There is light years difference. However, I do understand what you are all saying and I am going to have to take a much closer look at the actual scores and see if I can make sense from it.
RGirl, I think Irina is a rmarkable skater. Everything you said about her is spot on She is a tremendous talent and unforgettable, one of the greats of all time. But I like someone who connects with strong music (Michelle) and/or balletic style (Sasha). It's her presentation style that, although not bad, doesn't equal Michelle's or Sasha's. But I agree that if they don't deliver the goods technically, Irina deserves her wins, as she has all season. That's a no brainer and no argument from me. Mao I think is a great jumper, but she is not up to Irina in other areas technically, so when her scores were so much higher than Sasha's I did complain about that (if it had been Irina who had beaten her, i wouldn't have been complaining). I don't consider Mao Irina's equal yet. If Irina wins the OGM, skating like she is now, I am not going to have a problem with it and I will be happy for her. She has worked very hard and I really respect that.

 

[Jaana]

Although Cohen has not succeeded in winning a gold medal in Worlds so far, she though has been the best US skater both 2004 and 2005. Slutskaya seems very strong this moment, but there still is time ´till the Olympics and nobody is immune towards pressure. I hope that Cohen will have a choreography she is very comfortable with and that it will be CoP friendly also. The fact that she went to David Wilson for help, proves how serious she is in her Olympics preparation.

I hope that for the Olympics Cohen will find the right balance between of being competitive and interpretative. For her as well as for many of the others too, it sure is best to try to forget about medals and just concentrate on skating one´s best. There still is lots of time to practice.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm with you there Joe.

I like COP personally because of access to the score sheets, and the ability to make some sense of things from the judges point of view that weren't available before. I'm becoming a more knowledgeable fan because of this access to detailed information. That gets a thumbs up from me!DG

And me, too.The CoP is an attempt at making the judging more objective, and I think it has made good improvements thus far on the technical side. I am a bit leery about the Technical Caller's call. In listening to Paul commentating about a jump he found questionable he often looks to the scores to see if there was a deduction for it. Sometimes there is; other times not. Paul is a very technical skater himself. He has an excellent view of the ice and the skater, and he is by no means biased. There should be no discrepancy between his call and the Caller's. Something could be done in this respect.

However, it's the PCS that presents the biggest problem because trying to make the final result objective is, imo, a formidable task. The breakdown of PCS into components has been a big step in that direction. However, it is still sublimely biased in each of those component scores, and there is far too much rush to fill those scores for the final tally, imo. I reiterate my cause to have separate judging for this portion of the final mark.

I also think that the 2 part judging will prevent further any attempts at cheating.

As for Irina, and from a sportsman's point of view, her scores are generally inflated but the final result is she deserves to win. The problem with Irina's presentation is that esthetically it is not pleasing to many skaters.

Joe