New Hersh Article- says Kwan probably won't be at December event

[linda vanwormer]

Bielman's

I would like to see a Zayek (sp) rule for Bielman's. I do get tired of seeing them in every segment.

 

[Rgirl]

....RGirl, I think Irina is a rmarkable skater. Everything you said about her is spot on She is a tremendous talent and unforgettable, one of the greats of all time. But I like someone who connects with strong music (Michelle) and/or balletic style (Sasha). It's her presentation style that, although not bad, doesn't equal Michelle's or Sasha's. Emphasis and editing by Rgirl to Quote #218. But I agree that if they don't deliver the goods technically, Irina deserves her wins, as she has all season. That's a no brainer and no argument from me. Mao I think is a great jumper, but she is not up to Irina in other areas technically, so when her scores were so much higher than Sasha's I did complain about that (if it had been Irina who had beaten her, i wouldn't have been complaining). I don't consider Mao Irina's equal yet. If Irina wins the OGM, skating like she is now, I am not going to have a problem with it and I will be happy for her. She has worked very hard and I really respect that.

I emphasized your sentence, “But I like someone...with strong music (Michelle) and/or balletic style (Sasha)...” as compared to Irina’s style. This is one of the strongest aspects of the COP, IMO. Style is a matter of taste. Some people love classical ballet and can’t stand the various styles of modern dance, and vice versa. But they all have their own standards of excellence and weakness in terms of both choreography and performance.

IMO, Irina has been judged on her personal style: dynamic, energetic, with great speed, deep edges, powerful jumps, and a direct, simplicity of choreography to music that enhances her style. The judges should be going by the TES and PCS standards as set by the ISU. In Irina’s case, I feel the judges have done that. A judge may prefer the styles you described, but it is his job to virtually disregard style and concentrate only on how well the skater has fulfilled the ISU COP criteria.

I agree with you re Mao Asada. I thought her TES were right on the money, but that her PCS were, for the most part, too high. IMO, this is perhaps the greatest weakness in the COP system as it now stands.

BTW, I think your acceptance of Irina’s skating strengths despite not liking her style says a lot about your intelligence as described by F. Scott Fitzgerald: “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.”

Rgirl

258 words not counting quote and word count.

 

[Rgirl]

....I hope that for the Olympics Cohen will find the right balance between of being competitive and interpretative.....Quote #219 edited by Rgirl

IMO this sentence is absolutely brilliant! And not just for Sasha, though she may need it the most, but for every skater. Sarah Hughes found the right balance in ‘02, ironically because she felt she had nothing to lose by skating with such freedom.

I also think this is the most difficult thing for a skater at the Olympics. It’s difficult at Nationals; very difficult at Worlds; and off-the-map difficult at the Olympics.

This should be the essential difference between the technical and component scores, but the judges haven’t been scoring that way. High TES equals high PCS, no matter what. In the case of Asada, brilliant as she was technically, with good interpretive skills, IMO, and cute cute cute; I think the other component criteria were over-marked from .50 to 2 points--speaking very generally.

Rgirl

P.S. OT--Since many people don’t check Le Cafe these days, there’s a thread about Grgranny. If you know her, please take a moment to look.

162 words not counting quote and word count.

 

[Rgirl]

So I use my word processing program to write my posts so I can do word count. But it won't let me cut & paste and show up on the final post.:scratch: I had to go through all kinds of rigmorole to get it to work, hence the edits. Sigh.

I do try!:banging:

Rgirl

 

[JanJam]

IMO, Irina has been judged on her personal style: dynamic, energetic, with great speed, deep edges, powerful jumps, and a direct, simplicity of choreography to music that enhances her style. The judges should be going by the TES and PCS standards as set by the ISU. In Irina’s case, I feel the judges have done that. A judge may prefer the styles you described, but it is his job to virtually disregard style and concentrate only on how well the skater has fulfilled the ISU COP criteria.

One can be fast, energetic, and technically great and still skate beautifully (with actual interpretation and choreography) at the same time. Michelle and Sasha (if only Sasha could be more consistent) have proven that many, many times. When someone simply uses her power and energy for big jumps and is ugly in EVERY OTHER WAY, that's not balanced figure skating and should not be rewarded with ridiculously high PCS marks. But, of course, the judges don't see that, so all fans of powerful but ugly, ugly, ugly figure skating should be happy this season. After all, we already have an annointed Olympic champion who, as has been aptly described, offers nothing except Big Jumps and a Cute Smile ("BJCS", I like that) just waiting to be crowned.

 

[Mathman]

Oh, yeah, that's all Irina is. Big jumps and a cute smile. She blows every other woman off the ice with her speed, edges, spins, control, and pure energy but because she's not a lyrical skater, some reduce her to "BJCS" (Big Jumps Cute Smile). What unjustifiable baloney.

You are responding to Havanamesa, right? Not to the ever-so-subtly-sardonic Mathman.

 

[Mathman]

How the mighty have fallen. It used to be that threads on Irina, Sasha, etc., would eventually work their way over to Michelle.

Now Michelle is quickly abandoned on her own thread as we rush in with how much we love or hate Sasha and Irina.

MM

 

[JanJam]

How the mighty have fallen. It used to be that threads on Irina, Sasha, etc., would eventually work their way over to Michelle.

Now Michelle is quickly abandoned on her own thread as we rush in with how much we love or hate Sasha and Irina.

MM

Don't worry, this will eventually work its way back to Michelle (with some bashing here and there), I'm sure

 

[gezando]

How the mighty have fallen.

MM

Actually IMO Mao Asada is the new whipping girl, she is reduced to just a jumping bean by some posters and I speculate they are privately thanking the skating gods that this jumping bean is not eligible for Torino.

 

[R.D.]

How the mighty have fallen. It used to be that threads on Irina, Sasha, etc., would eventually work their way over to Michelle.

Now Michelle is quickly abandoned on her own thread as we rush in with how much we love or hate Sasha and Irina.

MM

Moral of story: always start threads on Kwan (they get nice and long )

I mean, this one is starting to rival that infamous one I posted about the Kwaniacs...that one had about 250(?) replies, and this one has like 230.

Gezando- Mao might have been the one to beat Irina. Now Irina has significantly less competition- Shiz is possibly the one that comes closest, followed by Cohen.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Moral of story: always start threads on Kwan (they get nice and long )

I mean, this one is starting to rival that infamous one I posted about the Kwaniacs...that one had about 250(?) replies, and this one has like 230.

Gezando- Mao might have been the one to beat Irina. Now Irina has significantly less competition- Shiz is possibly the one that comes closest, followed by Cohen.

They get long because some posters must answer every post by other comments of Kwan or Cohen.

Much too early to carry on about Irina's prowess. Irina is the one to beat if you are interested in some other skater to win. Otherwise it is a closed case. Does anyone think Amber has a shot at it?

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

Does anyone think Amber has a shot at it?Joe

Probably as good a shot as anyone else!

 

[gezando]

Gezando- Mao might have been the one to beat Irina.

RD, no one can beat a healthy Irina this season IMO. OTOH, Mao has proven that she can beat Cohen, and Arakawa fair and square under COP.

 

[R.D.]

RD, no one can beat a healthy Irina this season IMO.

But it's questionable whether Irina is going to stay healthy and/or at the top of her game throughout the next couple of months. I think she'll do very well in Torino. If she doesn't win, she'll definitely get silver.

 

[gezando]

But it's questionable whether Irina is going to stay healthy and/or at the top of her game throughout the next couple of months. I think she'll do very well in Torino. If she doesn't win, she'll definitely get silver.

I speculate many fans of the gold winner are still happy that Mao Asada is not eligible for olys. That of course do not change the fact that some of these same people (including Paul, Susie et al) are trying their best to reduce Asada to just a "jumping bean"

 

[R.D.]

I speculate many fans of the gold winner are still happy that Mao Asada is not eligible for olys. That of course do not change the fact that some of these same people (including Paul, Susie et al) are trying their best to reduce Asada to just a "jumping bean"

Who- fans of Irina? who are you referring to?

 

[gezando]

Who- fans of Irina? who are you referring to?

RD are you going in a circle. I said if irina is healthy she will be OGM. Then you said Irina may not necessarily be healthy, she (Irina) may get an olys silver. So are you betting Irina for gold or silver?

 

[R.D.]

So are you betting Irina for gold or silver?

Gold.

I say it's 3 to 1 that Irina is walking away from this even with the OGM. That other 1 in 4 shot goes to an upstart Japanese lady, but not two. Therefore, the best Irina will do is gold, and the worst she'll do is silver.

 

[Rgirl]

One can be fast, energetic, and technically great and still skate beautifully (with actual interpretation and choreography) at the same time. Michelle and Sasha (if only Sasha could be more consistent) have proven that many, many times. When someone simply uses her power and energy for big jumps and is ugly in EVERY OTHER WAY, that's not balanced figure skating and should not be rewarded with ridiculously high PCS marks. But, of course, the judges don't see that, so all fans of powerful but ugly, ugly, ugly figure skating should be happy this season. After all, we already have an annointed Olympic champion who, as has been aptly described, offers nothing except Big Jumps and a Cute Smile ("BJCS", I like that) just waiting to be crowned.

Golly. I didn't think anybody would need to repeat this old war-homily: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," and so is ugly. Hence, the PCS criteria, if one reads them, say nothing about "beauty" or "ugly," nor about pointed toes, lyrical or balletic style or any of those things. The criteria are strictly about non-style issues, and anybody can look them up on the ISU website.

Or maybe a nice person with a good memory (I ain't even going there with mine lately, LOL) would list them for JanJam.

IMO, Irina is a great interpreter of her music and choreography, better than Michelle's "Bolero"--very poor interpretaton and choreography; Sasha's "Rach," especially at USN, where in those two areas and pretty much every other PCS--UGH! And I like both Michelle and Sasha's skating.

JanJam, I'm curious. Do you or have you ever been to a theatrical dance concert, such as a ballet or modern dance concert? Or watched a video/DVD of same? I realize nothing is going to change your mind, but if you did happen to see a ballet and modern dance performance, live or on video/DVD, I'd be interested to hear your comments.

"Swan Lake" with Markarova and Baryshnikov is a great ballet on video/DVD. For modern I'd recommend Paul Taylor's or Bill T. Jones's Companies. I'm leaving out Mark Morris only because his work is so lyrical. If you can find a DVD of American Ballet Theatre, which does a lot of modern choreography, with Twyla Tharp's "In the Upper Room" on it, that would be the mother load.

Whatever the case, of course you're entitled to your opinion. Judges, OTOH, judges have a job to do based on specific criteria. So far, it's been my opinion that the placements for each discipline in each event has been accurate, more accurate than I ever saw overall under 6.0 in any GPS. Plus, just for Gezando, I even think Mao deserved to beat Sasha overall and that Shizuka deserved to beat Sasha in the LP.

BTW, I can't wait for Irina to do her "ugly, ugly, ugly" skating again and just hope that she doesn't work herself into a flare of her vasculitiis by the time of the Olympics.

Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

Actually IMO Mao Asada is the new whipping girl, she is reduced to just a jumping bean by some posters and I speculate they are privately thanking the skating gods that this jumping bean is not eligible for Torino.

Mao Asada the new whipping girl my butt! All that has happened with the lovely but still not yet soup Mao is that the vast majority of people were thrilled with her two GPS events, but as they compared her to various "veteran" skaters and probably rewatched their tapes, they probably saw weaknesses they didn't see in the initial excitement of seeing someone that young that good. Some people pointed out specifics. What's wrong with that?

Thus I think Asada simply went through the initial "WOW!" stage that Alissa Csizny did, followed by a less emotional and more objectiive analysis of her skating. As for Susie Wynne and Paul Wylie, they seem spot on for every other skater or team they analyze, and I think they are professional enough to delight in and point out Asada's strengths, but also professional enough to say where they see weaknesses. And I may be wrong (probably am) but I've never heard any of the commentator's call Mao "just a jumping bean." If they've used the term "jumping bean" at all it's been to say that people may call her that, but she is so much more.

The same goes for the posts I've been seeing on GS. What I've seen are just your normal, everyday opinions in which the majority think Mao is great, but point out a few problems that she'll probably fix as she matures. True, a few critisize her rather cruelly. But this is just like the treatment certain veteran skaters get, who get nailed to the wall by many posters.

So, Mao Asada, the new whipping girl? What's the matter, Gezando? You love to dish it out but is it that you can't take eensy weensy justifiable criticism from a few posters of the skater you now adore?

Rgirl