New Judging System-The Good Side

[gkelly]

I think we generally saw more variety of styles among the men in earlier eras as well. I attribute this to several reasons. The main one being that they tend to to be older and have a better sense of how they want to express themselves as individuals through their skating.

 

[Buttercup]

I think we generally saw more variety of styles among the men in earlier eras as well. I attribute this to several reasons. The main one being that they tend to to be older and have a better sense of how they want to express themselves as individuals through their skating.

I agree, though it might not be clear from the way I wrote my previous post. Someone asked on another thread a few weeks ago if this is the most exciting season people can remember. My answer is - no. When I started watching (about a decade ago) it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Plushenko or Yagudin would win, but there were other exciting skaters with diverse styles - Eldredge, Stojko, Weiss, Jeannette, Honda, Goebel, Abt, and others. Not all of them I liked, but it was fun to watch guys with different strengths and styles. I'm sure there were some interesting skaters to watch before that as well. If anything, I'd say things are a bit less varied this season, with considerably more subtle, artistic guys at the top level than those with other styles and strengths.

In addition to the reasons you mentioned for the variety of expression and presentation in men's skating, I think it might also be due to better mastery of jump elements by the guys. When a skater is less confident about the jumps, it comes through in the performance; you can see they focus on that, often at the expense of the presentation and the connection with the audience. The guys may find jumping a bit easier, and they also tend to have longer careers so they have time to develop in all aspects of their skating (jumps included) and to discover how to best express their personality on the ice.

 

[Bennett]

- Another thing I like about the new judging system is the protocol so that you could see where you succeeded and failed.

- I also like more intricate steps and more complex spins. I tend to be impressed when top skaters do something that low-level skaters cannot do. I especially love complex steps I love steps in Jeff's Adios SP, Mao's LP, her last season's SP and LP, Yuna's SP, Kozuka's SP, Tomas's SP and LP, and Chan's LP. When I compare Jeff's older programs and more recent ones, I feel that he had more complex steps later in his career, which I feel because of the COP.

 

[gio]

IMO, Men's skating has also evolved more than Ladies. And I'm not talking just about jumps where the difference is huge (almost every elite Men skater has a 3A and a 3/3 combo, Men have a lot better 3Z, but they tend to lip, jumps have better height and technique) but also about step sequences, flying spins, transitions / move in the fields are a lot better in Men's skating.
And artistry is in these days better in Men skating too IMO. If we talk about last year season for exemple I prefered Buttle, Lambiel, Weir and Takahashi artistry over Mao, Carolina and YuNa. Obviously artistry is so subjective that this is debatable. And I'm not saying Mao, YuNa and co. are not artistic, just that those top men skaters had more interesting and innovative programs from an artistic point of view.

I think we cannot blame the NJS for this, 'cause technically Men discipline was always more ahead than Ladies. But now I feel the gap is widening, Men is evolving, while Ladies is stagnating.

JMO

 

[NatachaHatawa]

I personaly ahte this system but it does have one good point: spins and footwork get more credit. Basic skills have more value.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I feel that the Ladies have to be ballerinas whereas the Men have the freedom to skate 'their' own way. However, the Men have to show super jumping. It's pretty much the same in both systems. CoP does make it more of a Sport than 6.0 in my opinion, even for the Ladies.

 

[asparaguss]

I think Mathman is spot-on in noting the audience has to be part of what's happening. I'm afraid skating is turning itself into a connoisseur's sport rather than something approachable and inviting, and it's losing its mass appeal as a result.

Yes, exactly. I think skating's gymnastics-envy is part of what led to this, and it's a terrible model to follow. How big is the audience for gymastics? Mostly just the participants and their families, except for a brief notice every Olympics, after which it's promptly ignored for another four years.

That shouldn't be where skating wants to go. More rigorous, more "sport-like," does not automatically mean better, not by a long shot.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.
That shouldn't be where skating wants to go. More rigorous, more "sport-like," does not automatically mean better, not by a long shot.

Well, what does better mean? I believe (not sure) skating does well in other countries.

I do believe bringing the audience into skating is necessary. Kwan was a natual for that. Others just try wowwing the audience with acrobatics. Both work, but it depends on how well the skater gives to the audience. The big question is: Does the audience want to come back and see more?

 

[gkelly]

IMO, Men's skating has also evolved more than Ladies. And I'm not talking just about jumps where the difference is huge (almost every elite Men skater has a 3A and a 3/3 combo, Men have a lot better 3Z, but they tend to lip, jumps have better height and technique) but also about step sequences, flying spins, transitions / move in the fields are a lot better in Men's skating.

Men are still ahead of ladies on jump content, but I don't think they are further ahead under IJS than under 6.0 than the ladies are.

Look at, say, 1998 or 1999 Worlds. How many men attempted 3A and 3/3 combo? The vast majority of the final 24. A handful attempted quads, although there were few successful ones (and quads were not allowed in the SP until 99 anyway).

What about the ladies? How many 3-3 combos or 3A in those years compared with 2008? Hardly any. 3Lz or 3F +3Lo was still unheard of, and now we regularly see them attempted and often completed in short programs, primarily by Ando and Asada; those jumps in combo with 3T were a big deal from a female skater throughout the 90s and quite common today.

I don't think we can say that the difficulty of the spins and steps have increased that much more among the men either, although the gap between the bad spinners and the good spinners used to be a lot wider among the men and now the weaker ones (of both sexes) have been forced to try to catch up.

Ten years ago Irina Slutskaya was probably the third best spinner in the world for difficulty and speed/number of revolutions, after Lucinda Ruh and (at least for combinations) Yulia Vorobieva. Today there are quite a few ladies who can outdo Slutskaya's best spins and could give Ruh a run for a money.

 

[gio]

gkelly, you are an expert of FS, so probably you are right. I'm not kidding, I'm talking seriously. I've learned a lot with your posts! But I disagree that Men is ahead just on jumping.

There is something in Men that make me feel this discipline is much more ahead of Ladies.

-The position in the air of a flying spin in a Men skater is much better than in a Ladies skater. The jump is higher.
-Men spins seem to me faster. IMO they also tend to travel less.
-Step sequences are more complicated for Men. I don't know if a female skater has already achieved a Level4 step sequence? IMO step sequence have developed a lot under COP with the NJS. I don't always like them, but they seem pretty complicated (as you may remember, I prefer the step sequence all on one foot, or all on the toe for example (so to make them more music friendly)).
-Generally Men uses more transitions into jumps than Ladies. Spread Eagles seams more inclined. Plus is there any female skater who has included hydroblading or a cantilever in their competitive program?

Tonya Harding and Midori Ito did 3A at the beggining of the 90s. Now we are in 2009 and only two skater are doing 3A (Mao and Yukari). So the situation with 3A hasn't changed much.

 

[gio]

Oh and let me add that jump technique in some current top Ladies skaters is really debatable. They may have added 3/3 combos, but there is still a small number of skaters who can correctly do all 5 triple jumps. IMO this is step backward.

 

[Buttercup]

I personaly hate this system but it does have one good point: spins and footwork get more credit. Basic skills have more value.

I don't think we can say that the difficulty of the spins and steps have increased that much more among the men either, although the gap between the bad spinners and the good spinners used to be a lot wider among the men and now the weaker ones (of both sexes) have been forced to try to catch up.

It's nice that competitions aren't necessarily decided based on who lands the most jumps on what foot. While I dislike some of the features required for high level spins, I am glad to see skaters putting an effort into improving this part of their skating.

That shouldn't be where skating wants to go. More rigorous, more "sport-like," does not automatically mean better, not by a long shot.

Well, what does better mean? I believe (not sure) skating does well in other countries.

The big question is: Does the audience want to come back and see more?

Joe, I think some of the requirements, especially for spins and footwork, do not contribute to audience appeal. With spins, the skaters do more rotations and there have been other improvements, but the positions they need to hold are often ugly, and speed and innovation seem (to me) to have suffered.

With footwork, the complexity required has made many skaters look slow. The intricacy and complexity may appeal to many figure skating enthusiasts, but that's a small group; for most people in the audience, I think the slower, intricate stuff is less interesting. As an example, consider Yagudin's SL steps in Winter: would it have even gotten level 2 under the current system? There's very little upper body movement, and parts of it were two-footed. But it was fast, fun, different, and exciting - and audiences loved it. The current system rewards intricacy (it also rewards flailing your arms, but never mind that) but it does not seem to reward speed.

Gio, I believe Carolina Kostner got a level 4 for her step sequence in her Riders on the Storm SP in at least one GP last year, but I'm not 100% positive.

 

[gio]

Gio, I believe Carolina Kostner got a level 4 for her step sequence in her Riders on the Storm SP in at least one GP last year, but I'm not 100% positive.

I've checked, you did remember correctly. She did receive a level 4 in her LP at NHK last year. :agree:

Men is evolving, while Ladies is stagnating.

I forgot to specify especially in the artistic department.

 

[jyshin]

As an example, consider Yagudin's SL steps in Winter: would it have even gotten level 2 under the current system? There's very little upper body movement, and parts of it were two-footed. But it was fast, fun, different, and exciting - and audiences loved it. The current system rewards intricacy (it also rewards flailing your arms, but never mind that) but it does not seem to reward speed.

Excellent point

 

[Kinga]

I think my biggest grudge with the new judging system is that the excitement of seeing a string of 6.0s or even 5.9s (almost perfect mark) is gone. Though the marking was still somewhat complicated, the average fan "got it" when a 6.0 appeared on the board. It was like winning the Oscar for a an actor or actress - when his/her name is announced. I think with all the "hidden" marks and deductions - although the score is shown - it's really not the same kind of feeling for the skaters and it is certainly lost on the fans. There was some kind of honour achieved when a skater received the "perfect" 6.0 mark.

I so agree with you! CoP brought some positive aspects to the figure skating (as well as negative), but no doubt about that - we are not going to see the perfect 10.0 mark, and that is what takes away excitement from the audience and this unique 'type' of glory from the skaters. And that is sad. I remember several times having tears in my eyes, seeing 5.9/6.0 popping out across the screen. I was truly touched. Sorry, but I cannot get the same feeling with 8.25 or so. Plus that mostly the casual fan only gets to see the pulled TES and PCS and the total score.

 

[gkelly]

There is something in Men that make me feel this discipline is much more ahead of Ladies.

-The position in the air of a flying spin in a Men skater is much better than in a Ladies skater. The jump is higher.
-Men spins seem to me faster. IMO they also tend to travel less.
-Step sequences are more complicated for Men.

I'm not sure about the spins traveling (to what extent it is now true and if so to what extent that has changed since the change in judging system), but the rest of the above were all true under the old system as well. Those just happen to be areas where men tend to be better. I wouldn't attribute them to the judging system.

Completely as an aside, I think if men were to compete against women under the ladies' short program rules that it could be a relatively fair contest. Sure, the men would do triple axel combinations and/or triple-triples and for the most part would rack up more points on jumps, but if required to do spiral sequences and laybacks few men would be able achieve higher levels and some would be unable to complete the elements satisfactorily at all. In a free program where they'd be allowed quads, repeated triple axels, and more jump combinations, men would obviously have a large advantage based on jumping ability.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Buttercup - Good post. But I'm not interested in overly complex footwork for the sake of the CoP especially when skaters both female and male bend over to gather up imaginary flowers. It's just 18th century ballet-like and nothing more.

I prefer using the basic turns of figure skating with plenty of flow. Johnny Weir does exactly that althougth I think he did a bit of flower gathering in the GPs. Nothing better than a sweeping Rocker turn mixed up with brackets, counters and three turns. They all go with the music, and the arms should flow accordingly. A skater showing personality rather than what the choreographer told him/her should be given more credit in step sequence. Obvisouly, it's my taste, but how wrong am I?

Of course, if the skater is super musical like Brezina, Lambiel, Browning, then a very stylized footwork sequence is in order. It's not necessary for that trio to gather flowers. They just embellish to the music.

 

[gkelly]

-Generally Men uses more transitions into jumps than Ladies. Spread Eagles seams more inclined. Plus is there any female skater who has included hydroblading or a cantilever in their competitive program?

hydroblading about 3:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVjRT-p7UUw
and, not as low, about 2:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy2cfZPa_j8&feature=related

not specifically what you asked for, but lots of spread eagles and other cool transitions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT57QERvqa0

All from the old system, which doesn't dispute your point about ladies being less adventurous artistically. There were few who stood out for being artistic in unusual ways 10-20 years ago, and even fewer now. But we have only had a few years of the new system from which to draw examples.

Here's one of my favorites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9y1ui80eRA

Oh and let me add that jump technique in some current top Ladies skaters is really debatable. They may have added 3/3 combos, but there is still a small number of skaters who can correctly do all 5 triple jumps. IMO this is step backward.

Why? There were plenty of ladies with flawed jump technique (just look at all the complaints about the 1998 and 2002 Olympic champions' jumps) and/or fewer than 5 different triples in the old system as well.

Joe, I think some of the requirements, especially for spins and footwork, do not contribute to audience appeal.

True. I think there is room for improvement in the requirements for these elements and the rules for how they're scored that could encourage more audience friendliness along with rewarding various kinds of technical superiority.

With spins, the skaters do more rotations and there have been other improvements, but the positions they need to hold are often ugly, and speed and innovation seem (to me) to have suffered.

How would you compare the spins in the 1990s links above with those of skaters with similar accomplishments today?

As an example, consider Yagudin's SL steps in Winter: would it have even gotten level 2 under the current system? There's very little upper body movement, and parts of it were two-footed. But it was fast, fun, different, and exciting - and audiences loved it. The current system rewards intricacy (it also rewards flailing your arms, but never mind that) but it does not seem to reward speed.

Almost all step sequences from before the 6.0 era, both the easy ones and the difficult ones, the boring and the exciting, would be level 1 by IJS rules, because the rules for step sequence levels are so specific and would have been impossible to anticipate before they were written.

Speed would be rewarded in the GOE. It's hard to make speed the primary focus while also meeting the requirements for even level 2 under the current rules.

So compare them on quality (GOE) alone? Change the level requirements to give more options about how to earn higher levels?

 

[Buttercup]

True. I think there is room for improvement in the requirements for these elements and the rules for how they're scored that could encourage more audience friendliness along with rewarding various kinds of technical superiority.

How would you compare the spins in the 1990s links above with those of skaters with similar accomplishments today?

Almost all step sequences from before the 6.0 era, both the easy ones and the difficult ones, the boring and the exciting, would be level 1 by IJS rules, because the rules for step sequence levels are so specific and would have been impossible to anticipate before they were written.

Speed would be rewarded in the GOE. It's hard to make speed the primary focus while also meeting the requirements for even level 2 under the current rules.

So compare them on quality (GOE) alone? Change the level requirements to give more options about how to earn higher levels?

I really like the idea of giving skaters different ways of getting high levels on spins and steps (I was going to add spirals but everyone gets level 4 on those ). Some skaters, with their coaches and choreographers, have done a good job finding ways to be unique but still get high levels, but it would be very helpful if the ISU had less narrow requirements; I think we'd see greater variety and better skating overall.

Do you think speed is being rewarded with GOEs? I'm not sure it is. If it was, wouldn't some skaters be better off doing lower level footwork that was fast enough to get high GOEs? The higher GOE would make the difference in base value meaningless. But I'm not seeing that right now.

I'll try to look at the links later and see what I think; I didn't really start watching until the late 1990s and the only spins I remember from before that were Lucinda Ruh's.

 

[gio]

I'm not sure about the spins traveling (to what extent it is now true and if so to what extent that has changed since the change in judging system), but the rest of the above were all true under the old system as well. Those just happen to be areas where men tend to be better. I wouldn't attribute them to the judging system.

I agree with this. In fact I said that Men were always technically ahead and that I don't blame the NJS for this.
I realized you're right that the gap technically is not widening, at the end we still didn't see a 4L or 4F.

After, I specificed that Men evolving and Ladies stagnating is happening especially in the artistic department and again I won't "blame" the NJS for this, but the skaters, choreographers and coaches as well.

I "blame" the NJS for not rewarding adequately some elements such as jump sequences, some spins (e.g. illusion) etc. and blocking skaters doing new innovative elements, because they don't know if and how they will be rewarded. On the other hand there is a bonus of 2.0 points under the NJS for every innovative element the skater does (BTW this could be a point in favour to the NJS, but maybe 3.0 or 4.0 points would be better to incentivate the skaters in innovating), so half the "blame" goes again to skaters/coaches.