Olympic Pairs -2002

[aviva_dawn]

I started the Olympic threads by mentioning the Ladies 2002, someone else continues it by talking about 1994 Pairs and I wanted to put my two cents in about the controversial 2002 Pairs competition.

I went for S/P over B/S. Clean and electrifying program ( to me at least) vs. some mistakes from a classically pure and entertaining program....
What do you all think and how would you have judged that competition?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I have been and continue to be impressed with B&S. I did not think S&P could even be close to them scores. I knew S&Z would hit after the Olys having learned what more they had to do. But on THAT NIGHT, I acknowledged I&Z as the bronze medalists over S&Z.

My interest in S&P stemmed from their Wagner skate. As we all know Wagner's music is just overwhelmingly sensuous. While I love it, I never considered it as skateable. Skaters are much too young or inexperienced in life to capture that music. S&P did.

While my interest grew after the Tristan und Isolde music, I still didn't think they could take on the 19Century Ballet style of B&S. The Russian team of the 60s set that style for all pairs in stone. Even S&P had balletic moves but not the standard of B&S. For me, though, this is figure skating which I don't believe has to follow some sort of theatrical dance only but I know the fans love high arabesques and scrumptuous ina bauers.

My argument for the S&P win is simply they skated with as many elements as B&S; skated them well, skated them clean; told the Love Story which so many fans demand (I don't). My big fault with B&S was that besides that unfortunate accident, he lost control of being the lead. Elena took it up for about a minute before he was able to get back to it. It was a close race and S&P won by a nose, imo.

I haven't seen B&S lately but if doing an Elvis Presley imitate is considered being versatile with just about how many skaters have done that, I would think of them limited to 19th Century Ballet style.

S&P have grown tremendously as an SOI Act and as featured in Holiday shows. Regardless of the Olys, I would consider them the better team now.

Joe

 

[bleuchick]

Joe - interesting pov. Even though I have a different take on these two pairs, I always find your discussion about styles and particularly ballet to be quick interesting. Definitely, a good read too.

 

[Mathman]

Hi Aviva Dawn, a lot of people are expressing their opinion about that on the "What has suspect judging meant for YOU" thread also.

MM

 

[Matt]

In terms of lyrical quality, as eligibles, no one could top B&S. S&P were a strong, solid team but for most of their eligible career, they seemed a little held back in terms of their confidence level.

What changed everything for them was winning Worlds in 2001 (their Wagner programme I am just now beginning to appreciate as a truly spectacular artistic programme). After that, they became truly confident in their skating and it improved in their relation to both the music and each other, which is why IMO it was a good idea to go back to their Love Story programme for the Olys; they were at a point where they could truly interpret something like Love Story.

Granted, on any given skate, B&S's Méditation could have probably run rings around S&P in terms of intricacy and classic choreography. But B&S didn't skate cleanly; they had a mistake on their jumps. S&P skated cleanly. On the athletic side of FS, S&P won out. Artisticly speaking, although B&S may have had the better programme on paper, they had a mistake which disrupted the artistic presentation; something the judges (should have) noticed.

Bottom line: S&P skated a better programme; the gold was theirs

 

[Eeyora]

Had B &S skated clean I would have given them the gold hands down. However the point is they didn't.

 

[mpal2]

I just posted a response to the SLC pairs controversy in the other thread that Mathman mentioned. I don't feel like repeating it verbatim, but I essentially came out on the side of S/P instead of B/S. It wasn't just the jump issue, I had some issues with the presentation side of B/S including speed. They just didn't seem to be skating as fast as they normally did (although I do admit that speed is hard to judge from tv).

 

[Tonichelle]

I just posted a response to the SLC pairs controversy in the other thread that Mathman mentioned. I don't feel like repeating it verbatim, but I essentially came out on the side of S/P instead of B/S. It wasn't just the jump issue, I had some issues with the presentation side of B/S including speed. They just didn't seem to be skating as fast as they normally did (although I do admit that speed is hard to judge from tv).

Wasn't this one of the many topics we talked about during nationals? deja vu!

seriously though, I was rooting for both, but Elena and Anton seemed to lose it after his bauble. It wasn't a glaring error, but it became one thanks to the media.

Jamie and David skated Love Story as best as they ever had, and they won that night. Sure, they didn't get the medal they were going for, but they won the crowd, and at least the Western World over.


The only real tragedy of the whole thing is that both teams were villified by the media. Jamie and David got hit hard by certain European news outlets, and Elena and Anton got hit even harder in the US and Canada. Rosie O'Donnell even said she had wished Elena had never recovered from the skate blade accident, and even said that when they did that fluff piece she was thinking "Big whoop, so what" and yet that woman is still heralded as the "queen of nice" UGH They were featured on Leno's "Cheaties" box... it just really is sad that THEY are what the rest of the world has to judge us on

 

[Vash01]

I just posted a response to the SLC pairs controversy in the other thread that Mathman mentioned. I don't feel like repeating it verbatim, but I essentially came out on the side of S/P instead of B/S. It wasn't just the jump issue, I had some issues with the presentation side of B/S including speed. They just didn't seem to be skating as fast as they normally did (although I do admit that speed is hard to judge from tv).

You are right in that you cannot judge speed from TV. B&S were faster than S&P and they skated very well. I saw the competition live and I have a very different perspective. You and several other posters here seem to be influenced by the comments of Scott and Sandra. I drew my own conclusions since I was watching it live, without a biased commentary.

The bobble on the double axel by Anton was extremely small. It lasted for the blink of an eyelash (in fact they were back on unison after that blinked eyelash) and did not affect rest of their program at all. Skaters have made much bigger mistakes and still won on the strength of the rest of the program. One mistake does not mar an entire program and theirs did not. When a TV network replays even a small mistake a million times with the accompanying negative comments it can have an impact on viewers.

I also disagree with Joe that Anton lost the lead after the mistake. One thing that sets B&S apart from other pairs is that they are equal. In my mind the man does not have to be the leader.

What made B&S's skate superior to me was the difficult choreography, sophisicated music, lines, postures, and better speed (yes, they were still faster than S&P). S&P could not come close with the Love Story program. Had they skated Rachmaninoff/Orchid, they could have at least been competitive (from what I heard they were not comfortable with that program- not surprising considering the more challenging choreography). A clean performance does not necessarily mean a better performance. We have seen this numerous times in figure skating. Nor does louder crowd noise make it a better performance. S&P were essentially on home ice in Salt Lake city. Had both pairs been Russian there would have been no controversy (as in 1994).

B&S were simply better that night, even with the bobble. There is no rule that a pair (or a skater) must skate their best to win. B&S did not have to skate their best, but they were still better than S&P.

That is my opinion based on what I saw, without a biased commentary.

Vash

 

[Vash01]

I haven't seen B&S lately but if doing an Elvis Presley imitate is considered being versatile with just about how many skaters have done that, I would think of them limited to 19th Century Ballet style.

S&P have grown tremendously as an SOI Act and as featured in Holiday shows. Regardless of the Olys, I would consider them the better team now.

Joe

I find it very unfair that you are comparing B&S's first ever program (Elvis & Marilyn) as pros with the numerous S&P programs you have seen.

B&S have some beautiful programs like 'Let me fall', 'If I could' which are vintage B&S programs. 'Kalinka' is lively, and skated with great speed and lots of fun. The longer version of Meadowland which they skated couple years ago in Ice wars was a strong skate, although they only skated it a few times. They were still able to do sbs triple toes and sbs spins in unison. Unfortunately most pro pairs are not doing sbs jumps (not even doubles)- it is my big complaint against the pros. B&S's throws are even bigger than when they were skating eligibles (S&P had very small throws; they have improved the distance by about a foot- just a guess). They have more height on the throws (earlier they had the distance). Their lines are even better. I find S&P's pro skating boring because they have mostly lifts, and very little 'skating'. One still sees B&S's superior skating, but apparently you have not seen their skating since Elvis & Marilyn. I find it very unfair that you are drawing a conclusion without looking at enough information.

Vash

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I find it very unfair that you are comparing B&S's first ever program (Elvis & Marilyn) as pros with the numerous S&P programs you have seen. Vash

That's true, Vash. Except for that Pro competition, I haven't seen other B&S programs. I should not have made the comparison.

Joe

 

[Saint-Exupery]

Well, continuing on with what Tonichelle touched on, what I find extremely unpleasant is the bitterness shown towards S&P ever since the scandal. S&P skated and thought they had won and when they came second, they showed their emotions. That's all there is to it. And Vash, I would hardly call S&P boring....and I have to disagree that their programs are mostly lifts with very little skating. Yes, their lifts are various and spectacular but their skating has much more depth than you seem to give them credit for. The lifts are what gets focused on when people remember their programs or write about them because they are so memorable, but S&P are hardly one trick ponies. Look at their "Come Fly With Me", 'Who Wants to Live Forever", "Come Away With Me". Vastly different programs, with vastly different moods......featuring intricate, innovative choreography. Their lifts are just a part of their skating.

 

[miffy]

At the time i thought the FS results should have been: 1) S/P, 2) B/S, 3) I/Z.
Now i'm not so sure about S/P vs B/S, i do think S/P's performance was more magical, but maybe B/S's quality of skating was better overall. But i definitely think I/Z should have been higher than 5th that night!

 

[bdreampixie]

I agree with Vash01 on this one. B/S deserved the win over S/P. B/S had a superior program, and were/are superior skaters to S/P. The mistake that B/S made was not big enough to cost them the gold. S/P made the mistake of going in with Love Story as their program which overall was more simple. If you watch their feet, they're on two feet most of the time doing crossovers into elements. B/S had interesting entrances into many of their elements and they had ftwk. throughout the program. If S/P had gone to the Olympics with "Orchid" as their program, and skated that clean, then they definitely would have deserved the gold.

 

[76olympics]

I may have to hide behind a "virtual tree" after saying this--but I did think S and P were better that time when I watched the competitiion. And-this isn't characteristic for me. G and G are my favorite pair skaters ever and I frequently visit websites about them and love to watch videos of their performances,

And I like B and S as skaters much much more than S and P. They are lyrical, fast, and appeal to me much more than S and P generally. Their City Lights program is pure magic. But-they were pallid (to me) and tentative that night, and S and P were just "on." I really felt their performance and jumped up before the crowd even erupted (I saw it on TV so I was not affected by home crowditis).

For me, it was a similar situation to the 1998 Olympics Ladies. I have never cared for Tara. She just didn't resonate with me and seemed too young for me to even relate to. But-I had to concede she was better that night. She did deserve the win.

That said, noone should have behaved badly to B and S. That is just awful. The judges made the decision. And-corrupt judging is no new thing. It could have very well been that the French judge voted with her head, heart AND pocket.
Still, in my extremely humble opinion, it was very close and my choice that night would have been S and P.

 

[purplecat]

If I were a judge I would have judged S&P first, however, I could see the rationale behind putting B&S first. So even though I would've had S&P first, I wasn't outraged that B&S won initially. I thought it was a close contest.

 

[boggartlaura]

I'm the only person alive who'd have S/P first in the SP and B/S first in hte LP/

 

[Jimena]

I would've gone with B&S on this one. I think it could've gone either way, and it comes down to preference: a simple program vs. a complex and original one. One pair has better skating skills and elements, while the other pair perfomed more cleanly (but not perfectly either). I think B&S were tight and didn't perform that program up to their standard. But IMO, S&P are two (slight) mistakes below B&S, meaning that B&S could make a couple of little mistakes and I would've still put them first, specially with S&P skating Love Story.

I'm the only person alive who'd have S/P first in the SP and B/S first in hte LP/

Wow. I think you might be right! I hadn't heard that take on it before. Could I ask you why? I'm just curious, that's all.

FWIW, I'd have B&S first in the SP also.

 

[ceg15]

I have a biast opinion here because they are my all-time favorite skaters and I'm canadian and all that BUT IMO S/P had a clean, enchanting, charming, perfect skate that night. I was praying that they would take Love Story to the Olympics and they amde a good decision doing that.

To this day, I have to say that Love Story is my all-time favorite skating program. The way they skate to that music with eachother it's amazing, breath-taking, brilliant. There was no doubt, no doubt at all that S/P should've won, they deserved it. You can't look at the big picture-look at the real picture, what went on that night, who did what. It's not based on potential.

S/P clearly had the audience engrossed in their program, it was silent, it was like incredibly unbeliveable that skate. Was it not obvious that the russians made a mistake. It does not matter how big or small the mistake was, it was a mistake, and a mistake is a mistake. It ahs to be judged on the performances that were skated on that night, who put it out there? I give both of the team props for both going out there and putting out great skates, especially what happenned on the warmup too.

I was only about 11 or 12 when those 2002 olympics were but I went to bed crying that night and the next day and the next. I was like the hugest fan of S/P and to this day I still am. To award S/P the gold medal was the fiar thing to do, definitely. I also think that I/Z deserved better than 5th.

This is just my opinion.

 

[lulu]

When I first watched SLC in 2002, I was a VERY casual skating fan. I only occassionally watched skating during the Olympics and ocassionally nationals.
I had never even heard of B&S or S&P, or seen any of their programs.

I thought S&P did a good job, but I liked B&S better. My opinion wasn't based on any skatinq qualities, just personal opinion. But from the commentary, it sounded as if S&P deserved to win the gold.


The so called "scandal" actually made me more interested in skating. It was because of that, that I went online, to the messageboards. That of course sparked a 3 year "obsession" with all aspects of skating. And in the course of watching videos, reading books and learning more and more about skating; I change my perspective. I now think that B&S were the only couple that should have won the Olympic Gold Medals. On repeated watching of it, I have gained more appreciation for Medi. It a stunning piece of choreography and goregous program. Perhaps, one of the greatest programs of all time. It is too bad that B&S didn't skate their ultimate potential in SLC, but even with that, I still think that they deserve to be put over S&P