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Joe
Joe
PAIRS Free from TV
- Thread starter Joesitz (RIP)
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What a great set of pair free skates! All 4 were very enjoyable.
T&M - a very polished performance, nice costumes and great SBS jumps. However, I have a few nitpicks. Of the 4 performances shown, this was my least favorite (although they did deserve to win)
1. The lifts were very weak and rather simple. I expect better from would-be Olympic champions.
2. Two death spirals entered from a shoot the duck into a butt-sticking out position before getting into position without a nice back arch is two too many
3. If you're going to skate to Romeo and Juliet, you should at least manage to simulate being in love a little bit. Professional, but cold. They could have been doing a welding demonstration.
Pang and Tong-a lovely program; great lifts, twists and throws, and weak but improved on the sbs jumps. I really like their pair spin. The sbs spins need more unison. They make a great Phantom and Christine.
Marcoux and Buntin-I really liked this program. I couldn't stand their SP, but this was very, very nice. I particularly like the elegance of the opening death spiral. I got the impression that they were showing better speed than in the SP too. The interesting entrances to the throws were very cool.
I&B-this was again a personal best skate for them, but the competition was too much. That throw 3A was huge--I think they will land this in competition before the year is out. If they do, do they get the 2 points for a unique move? In fact, has any skater ever gotten those 2 points? I checked the protocols and they got no points at all for their spiral sequence, so obviously they can score better than they did here, even without John's ever missing 3Lz. I like the connection between them, and I like the Tchernyshev's overall choreography, except that the whole spiral sequence needs to be redone. But what they need most is to fix their SP-replace the 3Lz with a spread eagle/2A/spread eagle and go for the throw 3A there too.
T&M - a very polished performance, nice costumes and great SBS jumps. However, I have a few nitpicks. Of the 4 performances shown, this was my least favorite (although they did deserve to win)
1. The lifts were very weak and rather simple. I expect better from would-be Olympic champions.
2. Two death spirals entered from a shoot the duck into a butt-sticking out position before getting into position without a nice back arch is two too many
3. If you're going to skate to Romeo and Juliet, you should at least manage to simulate being in love a little bit. Professional, but cold. They could have been doing a welding demonstration.
Pang and Tong-a lovely program; great lifts, twists and throws, and weak but improved on the sbs jumps. I really like their pair spin. The sbs spins need more unison. They make a great Phantom and Christine.
Marcoux and Buntin-I really liked this program. I couldn't stand their SP, but this was very, very nice. I particularly like the elegance of the opening death spiral. I got the impression that they were showing better speed than in the SP too. The interesting entrances to the throws were very cool.
I&B-this was again a personal best skate for them, but the competition was too much. That throw 3A was huge--I think they will land this in competition before the year is out. If they do, do they get the 2 points for a unique move? In fact, has any skater ever gotten those 2 points? I checked the protocols and they got no points at all for their spiral sequence, so obviously they can score better than they did here, even without John's ever missing 3Lz. I like the connection between them, and I like the Tchernyshev's overall choreography, except that the whole spiral sequence needs to be redone. But what they need most is to fix their SP-replace the 3Lz with a spread eagle/2A/spread eagle and go for the throw 3A there too.
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- Jul 11, 2003
ITA Doris. I saw I&B at Skate America and M&B at Skate Canada, and the improvements in both teams is amazing. Excellent skating and I think they will be rivals after this season. Hope both teams stay together for another Olys.
Pong and Tang are coming into their own. They will be a threat for this Olys.
T&M are exactly how you describe them. They are so conscious of technique that the presentation is lost. It's like watching a demonstration on 'how to do the elements'.
JMO - Joe
Pong and Tang are coming into their own. They will be a threat for this Olys.
T&M are exactly how you describe them. They are so conscious of technique that the presentation is lost. It's like watching a demonstration on 'how to do the elements'.
JMO - Joe
Hey, Doris! Great comments. My thoughts on T&M:DORISPULASKI said:
1. I still think they are both subconsciously aware of the BIG FALL. It's just been over a year. After a drop, and I had a weenie one, no matter how hard you throw yourself into it after months and months, something in both you and your partner tenses up and automatically makes the movement smaller or slower. T&M may be World Champs, but their reptilian brains aren't. However, I also heard Tatyana punched the gate guy at a Swedish nightclub about three years ago because he wouldn't let her in with no ID. It's probably exaggerated, but Tot seems like one tough chick. Actually, from what everyone "in the know" on TV has said is that Max is the one having the more difficult time with it, especially emotionally. I understand it and don't know if a sports psychologist would help, especially with hypnosis--or maybe they're already doing that. It's not something you can make change. Over time and with practice, in my experience, it just does.
2. Why the Russians are so wedded to the "shoot the butt" entrance into death spirals is beyond me other than having very old coaches. Really, hasn't the rest of the world showed Russian pairs skaters that you don't need that "SPRUNG" approach to hold your edge?
3. I said something similar the first time I saw Mao Asada's "Carmen" SP. I said I didn't want the whole story, just some sense of the theme. But then, even I, huge Lolita fan, wouldn't want to see Mao "give some sense of the theme" of "Carmen." Now I just pretend it's like how they play "Lady of Spain" at every hockey game or play "Carmen" during ballet class. However, I agree with you about T&M. It's just that they've always been ice cold in terms of relating to each other. In other words, they don't seem like Moskvina skaters. Still, I love what Edmond Martin has done with Rota's "R/J." Still wish Sasha had used cuts--good one--from Prokofiev. Wrong play, but "Sasha, this summer, get thee to a music appreciation class at UCLA or some place." Just audit the thing, but criminy, I know you're born and raised SoCal, but try to find a class in which the teacher compares the thematic structure of the Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil" with Beethoven's Sonata Op. 111. You know, somebody fun.
Pang and Tong: Jian Tong continues to make me melt with the way he moves. Qing Pang still looks so weak in any position besides standing. The upper leg on her star lift just doesn't "star," if you know what I mean. The twists and throws, as you say, are great, and it is a lovely program. I just wish Qing Pang's power and strength more closely matched Jian Tong's. They continue to look lopsided to me because Jian is so good and such a beautifual skater all around and I know, I know, lots of perfectly healthy Asian women just look like that. Well, then lots of perfectly healthy Asian women look weak as pairs figure skaters. I'd love to love her, but sadly, I find too many of her movements and positions so weak as to be distracting. Sorry all Qing Pang fans. If it's any help, I think Jian Tong is the hottest figure skating guy to come down the pike since Ilia Kulik.
Rgirl
Add me to the list...I appreciate the earlier comments very much. I'm still really missing S/Z this season, and really would have enjoyed a T/M versus S/Z rivalry this season. But, what we are seeing is truly great.
I just want to say, Rgirl...I totally agree about Tong
I do think Pang looks better this year, maybe with just a little more work, a little more stretch, and a little more knee/ankle action she might surprise us all. Whether that is this year or not will be hard to say, but her expression last night made me do a double take and ask: is that Pang????
T/M really do seem in a class by themselves...I mean just their basic skating around the rink looks sooooo much better than everyone; of course I agree that they appear (particularly she appears) to be stone cold emotionally out there, and yes, their lifts are very slow (understandly of course, but this is still a competition), but my gosh their line, and flow, and jumps and spins...all just gorgeous and their unison is WOW. Yes, I too tire of the shoot the duck entrance, but my real complaint is the second showing of it, I mean once is a program, ok fine, but twice???
M/B, I/B and a few others but not from this competition are really just making pairs so exciting this year. Both of these teams look light years better than last year, and I find that soooo exciting (not to mention impressive). I really like both of these team's LP but haven't seen their shorts yet. Anyway, I must say I'm thankful that ESPN showed as much of the pairs as they did...I may be wrong, but I feel the coverage is much better this year than last year (always room for improvement, of course, but I'm happier this year than last, and like the commentating way way more....except for Suzie on the women).
I just want to say, Rgirl...I totally agree about Tong
I do think Pang looks better this year, maybe with just a little more work, a little more stretch, and a little more knee/ankle action she might surprise us all. Whether that is this year or not will be hard to say, but her expression last night made me do a double take and ask: is that Pang????
T/M really do seem in a class by themselves...I mean just their basic skating around the rink looks sooooo much better than everyone; of course I agree that they appear (particularly she appears) to be stone cold emotionally out there, and yes, their lifts are very slow (understandly of course, but this is still a competition), but my gosh their line, and flow, and jumps and spins...all just gorgeous and their unison is WOW. Yes, I too tire of the shoot the duck entrance, but my real complaint is the second showing of it, I mean once is a program, ok fine, but twice???
M/B, I/B and a few others but not from this competition are really just making pairs so exciting this year. Both of these teams look light years better than last year, and I find that soooo exciting (not to mention impressive). I really like both of these team's LP but haven't seen their shorts yet. Anyway, I must say I'm thankful that ESPN showed as much of the pairs as they did...I may be wrong, but I feel the coverage is much better this year than last year (always room for improvement, of course, but I'm happier this year than last, and like the commentating way way more....except for Suzie on the women).
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emma, ESPN has been showing the short programs on Sunday afternoon and the LP's on Monday night, so you should be able to see them! At least for the NHK competition and for the GP Final.
Yeah. I agree. Pang somehow always stands out a little 'stiff' in her arms and legs. But sure her expression is far more improved from last season. They improved a great deal in TEB from COC. Using their own words the program looks more meld together. There were less moment of 'waiting' to each other. More unison in over all movement....most of all there is an 'attack' attitude. They shown more confidence here.....strange it sounded their 2a/2a sequence diddn't count, but there was another pair's same sequence was counted.emma said:
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Very strange. And not only was I&B's sequence counted at TEB, it was counted at Skate America as well, which is probably why Pang and Tong chose to make the change rather than working on a 3S to use as their solo jump.
Someone better explain to both pairs whether and when a 2A 2A sequence is legal.
This is just not fair in an Olympic year.
Someone better explain to both pairs whether and when a 2A 2A sequence is legal.
This is just not fair in an Olympic year.
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Didn't one of the commentators say that if it had counted, P&T would have won. I wonder if they will take this matter up?DORISPULASKI said:
On another note for all the ladies out there in front of their TV sets, Tong is China's answer to Rudy Nureyov. I met them both in Moscow.
Joe
Joesitz said:
Yes, one of the commentators said, when viewing the final results, that the difference (i.e., between T/M and P/T) was the double axle sequence. During the LP, the commentator said the Tong barely did the hope between the two jumps, so maybe it was 'so barely' or some other reason related to this that it was considered two separate jumps??
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What P&T did was:
2A / 2A sequence (base 5.3)
slightly later a 3T single (base 4.0)
From the protocols, P&T got:
a 2A for 3.3 points
a 3T for no credit
a second 2A for 3.16, listed as though it were at the end of the program
Jump total: 6.46
The protocols, of course, make no sense.
Even if the 2A/2A was not a sequence, the second jump should not have counted as their single jump, since having a 2A in both the combo and the single jump is prohibited.
So it looks like the caller said they did 2 sequences, and it is a complete mess, and there is a software glitch involved,too.
But I think that the sequence would not have given P&T the total victory, just in the LP.
186.90 total for T&M
182.64 total for P&T
Difference: 4.26 points
If P&T scored what they should have:
5.0 for the 2A, some slight amount off for the non-unison.
3.0 for the 3T with bad GOE
Total 8 points for the jumps.
So net, they did not gain 4.26 by this bad call, only 1.54. They would however, have won the LP, which is what I think the commentator meant.
Even if they scored the base marks, it would be 9.3 jumping points, still a gain of only 2.84, which doesn't make up the difference.
2A / 2A sequence (base 5.3)
slightly later a 3T single (base 4.0)
From the protocols, P&T got:
a 2A for 3.3 points
a 3T for no credit
a second 2A for 3.16, listed as though it were at the end of the program
Jump total: 6.46
The protocols, of course, make no sense.
Even if the 2A/2A was not a sequence, the second jump should not have counted as their single jump, since having a 2A in both the combo and the single jump is prohibited.
So it looks like the caller said they did 2 sequences, and it is a complete mess, and there is a software glitch involved,too.
But I think that the sequence would not have given P&T the total victory, just in the LP.
186.90 total for T&M
182.64 total for P&T
Difference: 4.26 points
If P&T scored what they should have:
5.0 for the 2A, some slight amount off for the non-unison.
3.0 for the 3T with bad GOE
Total 8 points for the jumps.
So net, they did not gain 4.26 by this bad call, only 1.54. They would however, have won the LP, which is what I think the commentator meant.
Even if they scored the base marks, it would be 9.3 jumping points, still a gain of only 2.84, which doesn't make up the difference.
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