Pairs... where do we go?

[Hevari]

As you could see - we had only 12 pairs in Europeans abd then two of them withdrawn and only 10 remained. Then on 4CC we had only 11 pairs entered and three withdrawn even before the competition started - so only eight remained. Then in the JGP we have pair events only in the half of the JGP's and the number of entries is the lowest amongst all... As it is the lowest on almost any senior event...

And as a long time fan of pair skating (and pairs are my personal number one amongst four olympic branches of FS) I'm concerned... Maybe something wrong was happened in the past so that pair skating is where it is now?

Ok - I thing to lower the BV of some elements was a right move just because all those quads and more-difficulty-hysteria are too dangerous for skaters' safety and health - so for me it was right move and it can turn into pairs those slkaters and their parents who earlier didn't want to try because of danger and unsafety.

But seems that still something more is needed to be done to make the mentioned situation better...

Or I'm just exaggregating and all's OK and healthy with pairs now?

 

[Rosallie]

It's post-Olympic season, many of pairs have splitted up or retired. On the other side, I know a couple of new partnership, which just can't compete this season. So I think next season it will be much better (well ... I hope ...).

But yeah, I think pairs is the most dangerous category.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think lowering the base value of quads was a bad move. Pairs need to train safely obviously but they need to push the sport forwards. At least SBS jumps should be harder. Would love to see the next Olympic champs/top 3 have a quad in their arsenal and a SBS jump that's harder than a SBS triple salchow (which has been around for decades). I do find that skaters are getting more creative with their music selections so that's a positive, that warhorses are slowly dying (a bit).

 

[Nirti]

I agree with both of you :yes:

The number of pairs at Euros always decreases after Olympics, for example from 21 to 16 in 2011, 20 to 14 in 2015... and now 14 to 11 in 2019. Many new European teams were formed last summer/fall and were not ready to begin at Euros (czechs Abrazhevich/Bidar, dutch Efimenko/Epstein, israeli Vernikov/Krasnopolsky, swiss Herbrikova/Roulet).
8 teams at 4CC already happened in 1999, 2005, 2013... and in 2006, only 7 pairs competed.

Pairs category stays really strong in Russia, where at least 40 teams (senior + junior) are competing. Around 25 teams in the USA, especially a high senior density if we take into account that most of the US junior teams are international only senior age-eligible.

More surprising is the canadian situation, until 2012 there were quite always more than 10 senior teams at nationals, and since 2012 only 7 or 8... or even 6 this year. I thought that pairs would be more popular in this country after the olympic medals of Sale/Pelletier and Duhamel/Buntin.

In Europe, it seems more difficult for the "Central-Eastern" countries to train pairs, the most striking example is Poland, where there's no pairs since 2014 (are the Siudeks still coaching?). The same for Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Belarus, Estonia... Where it seems difficult to keep long-term partnership.
However, in countries like Germany, Italy or even France, there's always new teams to replace the former ones.

So I would say the current situation is a mix of a global "moribund" trend for pairs and the specific situation of a post-olympic season.

 

[Hevari]

I agree with both of you :yes:

The number of pairs at Euros always decreases after Olympics, for example from 21 to 16 in 2011, 20 to 14 in 2015... and now 14 to 11 in 2019. Many new European teams were formed last summer/fall and were not ready to begin at Euros (czechs Abrazhevich/Bidar, dutch Efimenko/Epstein, israeli Vernikov/Krasnopolsky, swiss Herbrikova/Roulet).
8 teams at 4CC already happened in 1999, 2005, 2013... and in 2006, only 7 pairs competed.

Pairs category stays really strong in Russia, where at least 40 teams (senior + junior) are competing. Around 25 teams in the USA, especially a high senior density if we take into account that most of the US junior teams are international only senior age-eligible.

More surprising is the canadian situation, until 2012 there were quite always more than 10 senior teams at nationals, and since 2012 only 7 or 8... or even 6 this year. I thought that pairs would be more popular in this country after the olympic medals of Sale/Pelletier and Duhamel/Buntin.

In Europe, it seems more difficult for the "Central-Eastern" countries to train pairs, the most striking example is Poland, where there's no pairs since 2014 (are the Siudeks still coaching?). The same for Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Belarus, Estonia... Where it seems difficult to keep long-term partnership.
However, in countries like Germany, Italy or even France, there's always new teams to replace the former ones.

So I would say the current situation is a mix of a global "moribund" trend for pairs and the specific situation of a post-olympic season.

Sorry, but in Ukraine we have pairs) Yes, only a couple of pairs but they exist... Nesterova - Darenskiy seem to make a huge mistake by moving from Lilia Batutina to Vyacheslav Tkachenko... But Lilia Batutina still have a young and promising pair maria Syplenko - Daniil Yermakov... And in Kiev we have Violetta Bychkova - Ivan Hobta who coached by Philip Zalevski. But both still are rather novices so have a long way to go to the top... By the way - Lilia Batutina is relatively young and promicing pair coach... and Phil Zalevski also is promising...

About US pairs... seems that we have to take in account novice and intermediate pairs - many of them are international junior age-eligible...

 

[gordana]

Many new European teams were formed last summer/fall and were not ready to begin at Euros (czechs Abrazhevich/Bidar, dutch Efimenko/Epstein, israeli Vernikov/Krasnopolsky, swiss Herbrikova/Roulet).

Krasnopolsky with a new partner again? :eeking:
Herbrikova / Roulet split in preolympics season and are reunited again? Maybe CHTCHETININA / SCHERER should do the same?

 

[gordana]

Sorry, but in Ukraine we have pairs)

Yes, you have, but it's difficult to keep long-term partnership as Nirty has said.
Why for example, Mark Bardei split with Renata Oganesian and represent Canada now?

 

[Hevari]

Yes, you have, but it's difficult to keep long-term partnership as Nirty has said.
Why for example, Mark Bardei split with Renata Oganesian and represent Canada now?

Yes... you're right!

 

[Colonel Green]

More surprising is the canadian situation, until 2012 there were quite always more than 10 senior teams at nationals, and since 2012 only 7 or 8... or even 6 this year. I thought that pairs would be more popular in this country after the olympic medals of Sale/Pelletier and Duhamel/Buntin.

Craig wishes.

Pairs has been pretty overshadowed by dance in Canada ever since V/M fever hit. But there are more teams either coming up or forming from splits that will get the numbers up a bit in the next few seasons.

Why for example, Mark Bardei split with Renata Oganesian and represent Canada now?

We made him an offer he couldn’t refuse.

Pairs is an intense discipline, and it seems especially challenging to keep fielding teams consistently outside of the big feds (Russia, China, Canada, USA). But I’ve heard that the last few years have been good for getting more people interested in pairs in, e.g., Italy.

 

[1904sk8]

Craig wishes.

Pairs has been pretty overshadowed by dance in Canada ever since V/M fever hit. But there are more teams either coming up or forming from splits that will get the numbers up a bit in the next few seasons.

I think that there are SO many ice dance teams in Canada it would be smart to try to boost their pairs teams. They have some good men but both their ladies and pairs to try to improve

 

[Nirti]

Yes as gordana said, I cited Ukraine in the "difficult to keep long-term partnership" category Junior pairs has continued, but the senior transition was quite always impossible. Since the retirement of Stanislav Morozov, only Yulia Lavrentieva and Yuri Rudyk (Sorry, I never know when I have to chose between "i" and "y" while romanizing the ukrainian names) competed at Euros in 2013 and 2014. Nesterova/Darenskyi will be senior-eligible next season, Holichenko/Pavlov too, I don't know for Bychkova/Hobta, so maybe next season will be the good one for the comeback of ukrainian pairs!
Czech Republic had the same problem recently with the split of Duskova/Bidar (by the way, what is doing Anna Duskova?) and some years ago in 2011 when Kadlecova/Bidar ranked 7th at Euros and then disappeared.
Compared to the 1990/2000s when we saw each year at Euros 2 or 3 ukrainian pairs, and at least one from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia and some russian pairs skating for Armenia and Azerbaijan, it's the major change we've seen in Europe, only counterbalanced by the rise of italian pair skating.

Krasnopolsky with a new partner again? :eeking:

Only the 6th

 

[Hevari]

Yes as gordana said, I cited Ukraine in the "difficult to keep long-term partnership" category Junior pairs has continued, but the senior transition was quite always impossible. Since the retirement of Stanislav Morozov, only Yulia Lavrentieva and Yuri Rudyk (Sorry, I never know when I have to chose between "i" and "y" while romanizing the ukrainian names) competed at Euros in 2013 and 2014. Nesterova/Darenskyi will be senior-eligible next season, Holichenko/Pavlov too, I don't know for Bychkova/Hobta, so maybe next season will be the good one for the comeback of ukrainian pairs!
Czech Republic had the same problem recently with the split of Duskova/Bidar (by the way, what is doing Anna Duskova?) and some years ago in 2011 when Kadlecova/Bidar ranked 7th at Euros and then disappeared.
Compared to the 1990/2000s when we saw each year at Euros 2 or 3 ukrainian pairs, and at least one from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia and some russian pairs skating for Armenia and Azerbaijan, it's the major change we've seen in Europe, only counterbalanced by the rise of italian pair skating.



Only the 6th

Holichenko - Pavlov split after nationals...

Bychkova & Hobta still will not be age-eligible for juniors i guess... But Syplenko & Yermakov will be... Something like that...

 

[Manitou]

I am sorry to see that, but I must admit I personally contributed to this pairs decline. For the last twenty years I simply haven't been watching pairs at all. Actually, I watched last Olympics FS, but only top three. Sorry, I didn't watch the Canadians, only top two and Tarasova/Morozov. Other than that for the last twenty years I haven't watched pairs at all, even haven't checked results. I am simply not interested.
I am, of course, die-hard fan of all other disciplines, especially dance and ladies, but I am completely not interested in pairs. Some time ago I explained why and I think I am a good statistical example. I think majority of sport watchers do not watch pairs for exactly the same reason - pairs are the least visually attractive figure skating discipline. You guys here will disagree, but you are not a good objective statistical sample in this particular matter.
I want to watch beautiful and feminine women paired with good looking masculine men and it all combined with artistry. No exception. This is the sole reason I am watching figure skating. Pairs are giving nothing of that - masculine and unattractive women completely unmatched and unbalanced with their male partners in a poor choreo with no artistic appeal. And in addition to that their performances are most technically inconsistent of all four disciplines.
Sorry, but that is is not going to change soon. No support from me.
And I am afraid the moment ladies start being dominated by jumping 12-years olds will be a beginning of ladies decline too. Bring more Trusovas and I am done with the ladies too.

 

[Rosallie]

by the way, what is doing Anna Duskova?

She's recovering from knee injury (again). She's gonna to skate with Radek Jakubka. Btw, she posted a couple of IG stories with first trainings on the ice with Jakubka after the injury.

 

[skatenewbie]

I think lowering the base value of quads was a bad move. Pairs need to train safely obviously but they need to push the sport forwards. At least SBS jumps should be harder. Would love to see the next Olympic champs/top 3 have a quad in their arsenal and a SBS jump that's harder than a SBS triple salchow (which has been around for decades). I do find that skaters are getting more creative with their music selections so that's a positive, that warhorses are slowly dying (a bit).

yeah i think the BV is too low tbh. As for SBS jumps, pair skater is a pair skater for a reason, not saying they are not good skater or anything, but usually if a skater can land 3F/3Lz skater choose to compete in singles rather than pairs, hence majority of pair skaters only do 2A/3T/3S as SBS jump. Pair is also not easy with lifts, twist, throw jump which looks quite scary for many people.

 

[Edwin]

For pairs you need two very good skaters, that also are able to work together.
Most programs struggle in one gender or the other, so the selection of partners is difficult.
Plus a single competitive pair in the whole club won't work, you need some internal competition, some sparring partners to drive and engage each other in bringing the best out of everybody.
Let's also not forget coaching, training/coaching a pair is more multi faceted than training only single skaters.

But the trend is worrying, growing numbers of ice dance pairs, declining numbers of skating pairs.

 

[gkelly]

For pairs you need two very good skaters, that also are able to work together.
Most programs struggle in one gender or the other, so the selection of partners is difficult.
Plus a single competitive pair in the whole club won't work, you need some internal competition, some sparring partners to drive and engage each other in bringing the best out of everybody.
Let's also not forget coaching, training/coaching a pair is more multi faceted than training only single skaters.

All very true.

But the trend is worrying, growing numbers of ice dance pairs, declining numbers of skating pairs.

I don't think there is a continuing trend toward fewer and fewer pairs every year, but rather, as others have noted above, a sharp decline in a post-Olympic year to be followed by increases as the next Olympics approaches.

As I recall, 2017 and 2018 Worlds had the largest numbers of pairs ever.

 

[P44]

I don't think anyone has really noticed that the pair category is the least popular.
Even in Japan, where there are so many good skaters, there are few participants in pairs

 

[RobinA]

The side by side jumps are already too hard. Pairs is a splatfest of same-looking programs full of hideous, how-hard-can-we-make-it lifts. Pairs used to be my fave discipline and I hardly ever watch it anymore. Maybe its a phase, but I'm afraid it isn't.

 

[ladyjane]

I love pairs. My favourite discipline of all time, especially when the height difference is not too big. I also like it that quite a few pairs are using dance choreographers now which definitely has improved the discipline. Last year there was an all time high number of 28 couples at worlds (and I believe the year before that too). That's one of the reasons why they changed the numbers, now letting 20 couples take part in the FS. Agreed that both EC and 4CC show very small fields. I'm sure it will get better the coming years. We've even got both a junior and a senior pair in The Netherlands. I am so happy about that. Of course they can't be compared to Vanessa and Morgan, Sui and Han or Aljona and Bruno. Still, they are there!