PJ's Top Ten Pairs

[pangtongfan]

Shen & Zhou had no injury problems in 02-03 and 03-04 when they lost 3 of their 5 meetings to T&M, so your injury problems point is moot as S&Z only counted one loss to T&M while coming back from injury (and that was the 06 Olympics where how T&M skated they were never going to lose anyway). T&M were deadly consistent and technically superb so S&Z could not afford any mistakes or they would lose. Which is totally different than when they faced S&S. Totmianina & Marinin also easily dominated teams like Pang & Tong and the Zhangs, only one ever loss to the Zhangs and that was with their most disaesterous performance ever probably at Eric Bompard once; yet S&S frequently lost to both those teams during their reign. All in all it is quite clear that Totmianina & Marinin would dominate and crush S&S in their mutual primes.

 

[Buttercup]

Shen & Zhou had no injury problems in 02-03 and 03-04 when they lost 3 of their 5 meetings to T&M, so your injury problems point is moot as S&Z only counted one loss to T&M while coming back from injury (and that was the 06 Olympics where how T&M skated they were never going to lose anyway). T&M were deadly consistent and technically superb so S&Z could not afford any mistakes or they would lose. Which is totally different than when they faced S&S. Totmianina & Marinin also easily dominated teams like Pang & Tong and the Zhangs, only one ever loss to the Zhangs and that was with their most disaesterous performance ever probably at Eric Bompard once; yet S&S frequently lost to both those teams during their reign. All in all it is quite clear that Totmianina & Marinin would dominate and crush S&S in their mutual primes.

In 2003, S/Z won the event that mattered. In 2004, yes, they lost (they did win the free skating). They didn't compete in 2005 Worlds because of Zhao's injury and as you noted, he was still dealing with the effects of his injury in 2006, when Olys was their only event. S/S did not become a top team until the 2006-7 season and even then they were more of an up and coming team. In 2009-10, they were inconsistent, period - nothing to do with Shen and Zhao. They also lost to D/D, M/T, K/S, and P/T - all of whom are/were weaker pairs than Aliona and Robin. And frankly, I think when Shen and Zhao came back for one last shot at an OGM, there was a distinct feel that they were so beloved and admired, they would win so long as they didn't embarrass themselves completely. I don't believe they should have been first after the SP in Vancouver, for instance. YMMV.

BTW, if you use 2006-7 as you starting point, which as I've noted is the season when S/S started being considered a top pair, they did not lose frequently to the Zhangs, and they beat P/T more often than not. Is that what's bothering you?

As has been acknowledged by several posters, S/S are a wildly inconsistent team, but when they are on, they are very, very good. And despite their inconsistency, they have had very good results and are a highly innovative team - more than T/M for sure. I would argue that their inconsistency stems to some degree from not playing it safe: not with the elements, not with the choreo; no generic Nichol programs for them. I wish Aliona would hold her landings like Tatiana did, but on the whole, they are certainly not an inferior pair. If I did have to guess re the hypothetical: if T/M and S/S were both skating at their best, S/S win on account of stronger programs; the likelihood that S/S would be at their best is smaller, of course. I'm sorry you can't enjoy your skating, truly. But they do not deserve to be belittled.

 

[pangtongfan]

And frankly, I think there was a distinct feel that S/Z were so beloved and admired, they would win no matter what, so long as they didn't embarrass themselves completely.

So when they competed against Totmianina & Marinin they couldnt make a single mistake or they lost everytime, yet when they competed against the Germans in old age they merely had to not embarass themselves completely to win. That says it all.

BTW, if you use 2006-7 as you starting point, which as I've noted is the season when S/S started being considered a top pair, they did not lose frequently to the Zhangs,

They did not lose frequently to them but they lost more than once. Which is not true of Totmianina & Marinin.

and they beat P/T more often than not. Is that what's bothering you?

Lame and baseless assertion, and now getting desperate on your part. I am a fan of Pang & Tong but I am not blind to thinking they are an all time great pair. I like them largely due to their being the underdogs. As it is Pang & Tong in fact have done quite well against Savchenko & Szolkowy during the 07-2010 period, beating them at the 2007 Worlds, 2009 GP final, 2010 GP final, 2010 Olympics, and 2010 Worlds. Heck I believe they had a winning record vs the Germans during the quad and for their overall career to date. The times they lost to them they also lost to the Zhangs and came 3rd so werent winning anyway or came down in 5th, so they were never really impacted by the Germans in any serious way.

The point is Totmianina & Marinin never lost to those teams, except for the Zhangs once. Which along with their competition against Shen & Zhou, is merely further proof of how much stronger T&M are against the same competition than the Germans are. If you cant accept reality, that is your problem. PS- if I was bitter towards someone wouldnt it be T&M who ALWAYS beat Pang & Tong, rather than the Germans who often lose to them. More fail logic on your part. Totmianina & Marinin, by far a more dominant team than the Germans, did far more damage to Pang & Tong's career than the Germans were able to, yet as you can see by my staunch defense of them I in no way hold that against them.

As has been acknowledged by several posters, S/S are a wildly inconsistent team, but when they are on, they are very, very good. And despite their inconsistency, they have had very good results and are a highly innovative team - more than T/M for sure. I would argue that their inconsistency stems to some degree from not playing it safe: not with the elements, not with the choreo; no generic Nichol programs for them. I wish Aliona would hold her landings like Tatiana did, but on the whole, they are certainly not an inferior pair. If I did have to guess re the hypothetical: if T/M and S/S were both skating at their best, S/S win on account of stronger programs; the likelihood that S/S would be at their best is smaller, of course. I'm sorry you can't enjoy your skating, truly. But they do not deserve to be belittled.

Belittled, what nonsense. I am simply pointing out why Totmianina & Marinin are more worthy of inclusion on an all time top 10 list than S&S. I have made perfectly valid points as to why I would rate them higher, which a few fanboys of S&S apparently dont like and cant accept so continously whine and even misrepresent my comments or my thinking to try to make me change my mind, and now that it is clear I am somehow belittling them, ROTFL!!


Yes Savchenko & Szolkowy are more innovative but that does not make them better. Laurent Tobel is more innovative than Evgeny Plushenko by a long ways, is he the better skater. Totmianina & Marinin have the edge in consistency (by a huge margin), dominance, record vs top pairs, overall technical quality, overall presentation (as far as polish, unision, basic skating quality).

Your point who would win if both teams skated clean is moot. T&M skated clean 80% of the time. S&S have had 1 clean competition their whole career probably. Talking of a scenario of both teams meeting and skating cleanly is like a scenario of Buttle landing the quad lutz.

 

[Ilvskating]

So when they competed against Totmianina & Marinin they couldnt make a single mistake or they lost everytime, yet when they competed against the Germans in old age they merely had to not embarass themselves completely to win. That says it all.



They did not lose frequently to them but they lost more than once. Which is not true of Totmianina & Marinin.



Lame and baseless assertion, and now getting desperate on your part. I am a fan of Pang & Tong but I am not blind to thinking they are an all time great pair. I like them largely due to their being the underdogs. As it is Pang & Tong in fact have done quite well against Savchenko & Szolkowy during the 07-2010 period, beating them at the 2007 Worlds, 2009 GP final, 2010 GP final, 2010 Olympics, and 2010 Worlds. Heck I believe they had a winning record vs the Germans during the quad and for their overall career to date. The times they lost to them they also lost to the Zhangs and came 3rd so werent winning anyway or came down in 5th, so they were never really impacted by the Germans in any serious way.

The point is Totmianina & Marinin never lost to those teams, except for the Zhangs once. Which along with their competition against Shen & Zhou, is merely further proof of how much stronger T&M are against the same competition than the Germans are. If you cant accept reality, that is your problem. PS- if I was bitter towards someone wouldnt it be T&M who ALWAYS beat Pang & Tong, rather than the Germans who often lose to them. More fail logic on your part. Totmianina & Marinin, by far a more dominant team than the Germans, did far more damage to Pang & Tong's career than the Germans were able to, yet as you can see by my staunch defense of them I in no way hold that against them.




Belittled, what nonsense. I am simply pointing out why Totmianina & Marinin are more worthy of inclusion on an all time top 10 list than S&S. I have made perfectly valid points as to why I would rate them higher, which a few fanboys of S&S apparently dont like and cant accept so continously whine and even misrepresent my comments or my thinking to try to make me change my mind, and now that it is clear I am somehow belittling them, ROTFL!!


Yes Savchenko & Szolkowy are more innovative but that does not make them better. Laurent Tobel is more innovative than Evgeny Plushenko by a long ways, is he the better skater. Totmianina & Marinin have the edge in consistency (by a huge margin), dominance, record vs top pairs, overall technical quality, overall presentation (as far as polish, unision, basic skating quality).

Your point who would win if both teams skated clean is moot. T&M skated clean 80% of the time. S&S have had 1 clean competition their whole career probably. Talking of a scenario of both teams meeting and skating cleanly is like a scenario of Buttle landing the quad lutz.

Poor Buttle How come he got dragged into this...I laughed. Very comic

 

[skateflower]

Yes Savchenko & Szolkowy are more innovative but that does not make them better.

It's the innovative and excellent results that could make them one of the top 10. T&M were super consistent but that did not automatically qualify them for the top 10.
Sure S&S could lose to T&M every time they had to compete head to head because S&S rarely skated clean. That alone does not automatically disqualify them from the top 10 list.

 

[bekalc]

If S/S had T/M's programs, they'd be far more consistent. In contrast if T/M had S/S programs, T/M would be far less consistent. If consistency is all that matters, than why aren't you arguing that T/M are a better team than B/S as well. After all Elena and Anton were also inconsistent. But rather I think the issue people have with T/M is they were lacking something. In many ways they are a cookie cutter Russian team. Probably one of the best technical teams ever, but I think Button hit the nail on the head when he talked about how they didn't skate with the same passion/joy of the great Russian teams of the past. T/M benefited from a weak field.

In contrast, I'd like to point out that S/S were not the heir apparents to a great Russian dynasty. (And all the political benefits that come with that). They don't have a touching love story, and also belong to the most populous nation on earth, which the ISU would love to market skating too. They are rather from a small not very powerful federation, and heck their federation has big time issues with them. S/S have gotten where they are by literally clawing their way to the top, and by doing extremely difficult elements/choregraphy. Can't imagine how the beloved S/Z came back lead up to Vancover must have felt for this team.

S/S are to be quite frank one of the most innovative skaters/teams to come around in any discipline in a long time. As a team they will not be completely appreciated until they retire. Its partly because their programs can be different/aquired tastes. But what makes them great is they pretty much are bringing modern dance to pairs skating, like the Prototobovs brought ballet to pairs back in the day. I applaud this team for showing a different type of style is possible.

 

[Olympia]

I agree, bekalc. Maybe I watch skating with the wrong attitude, but I get something from this pair that I don't get from anyone else, so I rank them pretty high. Maybe it's the modern dance aspect you mention. I love your point about how they'd be more consistent if they skated T/M's programs and vice versa. You're probably right. Whatever it is, they stand out for me and I'm always happy to see them do well.

 

[pangtongfan]

If S/S had T/M's programs, they'd be far more consistent. In contrast if T/M had S/S programs, T/M would be far less consistent. If consistency is all that matters, than why aren't you arguing that T/M are a better team than B/S as well. After all Elena and Anton were also inconsistent. But rather I think the issue people have with T/M is they were lacking something. In many ways they are a cookie cutter Russian team. Probably one of the best technical teams ever, but I think Button hit the nail on the head when he talked about how they didn't skate with the same passion/joy of the great Russian teams of the past. T/M benefited from a weak field.

In contrast, I'd like to point out that S/S were not the heir apparents to a great Russian dynasty. (And all the political benefits that come with that). They don't have a touching love story, and also belong to the most populous nation on earth, which the ISU would love to market skating too. They are rather from a small not very powerful federation, and heck their federation has big time issues with them. S/S have gotten where they are by literally clawing their way to the top, and by doing extremely difficult elements/choregraphy. Can't imagine how the beloved S/Z came back lead up to Vancover must have felt for this team.

S/S are to be quite frank one of the most innovative skaters/teams to come around in any discipline in a long time. As a team they will not be completely appreciated until they retire. Its partly because their programs can be different/aquired tastes. But what makes them great is they pretty much are bringing modern dance to pairs skating, like the Prototobovs brought ballet to pairs back in the day. I applaud this team for showing a different type of style is possible.

If Totmianina & Marinin in your estimation faced a "weak field" then Savchenko & Szolkowy must have faced a "super weak" field, since they faced the same field Totmianina & Marinin did minus Shen & Zhou for the most part (who as we see the Germans are incapable of beating, while a prime T&M often beat), and minus Petrova & Tikhonov. The Zhangs were also far more exciting and interesting in their younger years when Totmianina & Marinin faced them than they have been in the years facing Aliona & Robin. The 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics were far better events than Savchenko & Szolkowy have ever been involved in, and Totmianina & Marinin won both. Totmianina & Marinin would have also easily won the 2010 Olympics with their 2006 Olympic performances, heck Pang & Tong won the LP by several points in Vancouver which nobody expected. Yet all Aliona & Robin could muster at those Olympics where a prime Totmianina & Marinin would have cruised to gold, was a bronze medal. Then Shen & Zhou would have won the 06 Olympics if they were healthy line which comes from their ubers is also laughable given that Shen & Zhou have never done a pair of performanes at the Olympic Games in 4 attempts (where the pressure is highest) that would even come close to having beaten Totmianina & Marinin in Turin. While you make some valid points your weak era excuse is ill conceived and simply wrong, given that this applies far more the Germans and their titles than it does to Totmianina & Marinin. Probably no team in history has benefited from a weak field for their major titles as much as the Germans, just look at the performance that won them the 2008 Worlds for instance, almost no other period in history could they have won with such performances. The last time such a lame performance as Savchenko & Szolkowy at the 2008 Worlds won Worlds was ironically by the Germans own coach Ingo Steuer with his former partner Mandy Woetzel at the splatfest 97 Worlds.

Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze were not as inconsistent as potrayed. They skated virtually cleanly at the 2001 Worlds and were shafted below the politically inflated and overrated Sale & Pelleiter who made major mistakes. They only made 1 minor mistake at the 2002 Olympics, where again they fell victim to the Sale & Pelletier propaganda. Their consistency was really coming together, but unfortunately they were vilified and all but pushed out of the sport at that point. They were also a beautiful pair whose sheer quality stood out so much it compensated for mistakes. The Germans are innovative but dont have the same quality that it overcomes crashs and error marred performances.

 

[blue dog]

If S/S had T/M's programs, they'd be far more consistent. In contrast if T/M had S/S programs, T/M would be far less consistent. If consistency is all that matters, than why aren't you arguing that T/M are a better team than B/S as well. After all Elena and Anton were also inconsistent. But rather I think the issue people have with T/M is they were lacking something. In many ways they are a cookie cutter Russian team. Probably one of the best technical teams ever, but I think Button hit the nail on the head when he talked about how they didn't skate with the same passion/joy of the great Russian teams of the past. T/M benefited from a weak field.

I agree with you. If consistency is all that mattered, we'd have a very different top ten. Perhaps, even G/G would not be on there, as they really were not at all that consistent.

 

[pangtongfan]

Consistency isnt all that matters but it is a factor. Saying it isnt is just like saying the World Championships arent a factor when there are the Olympics and the Grand Prix. As it is Totmianina & Marinin have many edges on Savchenko & Szolkowy. It seems there are some strange opinions on this forum, but a panel of experts would rate Totmianina & Marinin the higher of the two for sure.

 

[Olympia]

Consistency isnt all that matters but it is a factor. Saying it isnt is just like saying the World Championships arent a factor when there are the Olympics and the Grand Prix. As it is Totmianina & Marinin have many edges on Savchenko & Szolkowy. It seems there are some strange opinions on this forum, but a panel of experts would rate Totmianina & Marinin the higher of the two for sure.

Strange opinions! I quite like that. Many of the skaters I love best are generally accounted among the best ones ever--Browning, Kwan, G and G, YuNa, Mao, Daisuke, John Curry, various illustrious ice dancers--and it makes me feel delightfully rebellious and contrarian to be having a strange opinion. One wouldn't want to be too predictable. Thus, I'll stick with Savchenko and Szolkowy over Totmianina and Marinin for my top ten list.