Plushenko will honour us with his presence in 2010!

[elanna]

it is nice to have good memories, it must have been hard the years before and after 2000

Thanks, Seniorita, you`re very nice, of course it would have been rather hard if there hadn`t been Joubert`s victory at the 2004EC, Sandu`s just great win, and of course Lambiel`s at the 2005WC! And do you remember 2006WC especially after SUCH Olys!

 

[cheriepopo]

I am sure that is not how Alexei wanted to win and I am sure that he thought Sasha Abt should have won but Alexei was not handing out the medals.

what a pity sasha lost this gold in such a way, not because of his own fault. Maybe that's the reason of his regret? :think:

Thanks, Seniorita, you`re very nice, of course it would have been rather hard if there hadn`t been Joubert`s victory at the 2004EC, Sandu`s just great win, and of course Lambiel`s at the 2005WC! And do you remember 2006WC especially after SUCH Olys!

plush must feel sorry for those hard years except for these three times. as to the oly, well, just as dear alexei said, that's OK, no one will remmeber how bad I skated, they will just remember who won

 

[seniorita]

if there hadn`t been Joubert`s victory at the 2004EC, Sandu`s just great win, and of course Lambiel`s at the 2005WC! And do you remember 2006WC especially after SUCH Olys!

yeah, it needed some spicing up, plush had spoiled his fans a lot, hadnt he?

i didnt enjoy with my heart 2005 lambiel's win cause i remember I was terrified plush would not compete again after all the hype about how hurt he was after sp so I missed the joy, but 2006 worlds were great.
I liked plushy Tosca sp and his over the top Mario performance, about his Lp in Olympics all I remember is me jumbing upside down in the living room, it is enough

 

[elanna]

as to the oly, well, just as dear alexei said, that's OK, no one will remmeber how bad I skated, they will just remember who won

But it turns out that he was wrong.

 

[cheriepopo]

But it turns out that he was wrong.

really? we can see it after 5 years, 50 years and 500 years. Um, seems we cann't wait so long......but I can say, elanna, about the 2006OLY results in the mens, I personally think they were just great! ......(omitted content because too long)......... I so loved the 2006 OLY podium: Plush, Lambiel, Jeff! And NO Somebody else!!! so, after all, it is just the same.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It just doesn't really make sense to me that you are arguing about not "ignoring reality" and then suggesting that extra elements be called doubles of what they did. You can't have it both ways, your suggestion is much more "ignoring reality" than discrediting an entire combination for being illegal. Taking a perfectly executed triple and calling it a double just because the skater executed two of the same jump previously is much more reality dodging IMO.

Hardly. The skater already did what was required. You HAVE to give them credit for that. The extra they did just needs to be discounted - ie, grading the extra Triple as a double. It makes no sense at all to instead place a massive penalty on the skater.

Perhaps this analogy will make sense:

You are a chef. You ask your assistant to bring you 5 apples that are needed for a recipe. Which would you prefer:

-That they bring you 3 apples.

or

-That they bring you 6 apples.

Obviously the latter.

The current scoring system is trying to say that if the skater makes the mistake of doing too much, we should pretend they didn't do enough. That their 6 apples is actually only 3 apples.

 

[bekalc]

The current scoring system is trying to say that if the skater makes the mistake of doing too much, we should pretend they didn't do enough. That their 6 apples is actually only 3 apples.

Blades sure if your a chef and someone gives you six apples and you only need 3 than you just take the three. But what if the assistant puts all six of the apples in mixing bowl in with the other ingredients.. Isn't that a big problem and won't you have to start all over again?

The rules state three combinations, it doesn't matter if it's a fair rule or not, the rule is there and every skater knows that rule. Most skaters manage not to lose points because they did four combinations, because well once again it's not THAT difficult to count the combinations.

 

[Mathman]

So, unless you are in favor of ignoring reality, there is no reason at all to view this "rule" as legitimate.

There seem to be several places where the rules of the IJS deliberately ignore reality in order to make the points come out the way the ISU technical committee wants them to.

For instance, the phantom sequence. If you do a solo triple Lutz then later on another solo triple Lutz, the second triple Lutz is scored as a "sequence". This despite the reality than no second jump was attempted or contemplated as part of this so-called "sequence."

As far as I can see the reason for this is to penalize the skater for the Zayak violation, but not to take away the entire jump, only 20% of it as a punishment.

In this case the chef wants three apples, the skater brings only two, and the chefs uses 1.8 apples for the pie (or 1.88 apples with the second half bonus.)

 

[Blades of Passion]

bekalc...you've missed the analogy.

 

[seniorita]

did i miss the apple pie?

But it turns out that he was wrong.

who skated great in that Olympics?I remember weir's sp, lysacek lp, and maybe savoie? if you compare him with rest of the night of buttfest, no he did not skate bad, if you compare him with himself, then yes, he skated conservatively his Lp, obvioulsy decided he will win his medal with only his jumps, not the best way for sure , but give the man a break, he came back from groin surgery to win the olympics,prefered to play safe than have a program as memorable as his 2002 sp.
But in the sp night he was great, if someone didnt like tosca is another thing, but he did his best. Him and weir where the ones who skated at their potentials.

The Kers wrote on their journal that Plush was jumping 4-3 in Palavela.
http://community.livejournal.com/kerrs_ru/39080.html

8 April
Well the show here [Torino] is packed out! Of course Plushenko is the big draw and I can tell you he looks great! Saw quad toe-triple toe in practice - easy!

 

[seniorita]

Plushy seems to follow the trend of sweeping the ice and high-kicking in circular while keeping flying bees arms
from Lancia Torino Gala broadcast, looks like an sp structure?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hl4dddMZpQ

From Kings On Ice, Prague

lambiel : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8-ZrmnenaM great stephan

plush: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBY4TifBq8w his jumps look better here

they both need a haircut

 

[antmanb]

Hardly. The skater already did what was required. You HAVE to give them credit for that. The extra they did just needs to be discounted - ie, grading the extra Triple as a double. It makes no sense at all to instead place a massive penalty on the skater.

No you don't have to give them creidt you simply apply the rule, which everyone knows. The rules are what they are. The zayak rule has been in place for tens of years and everyone knows how it operates. The combination limit has been in place for years. You can justify why you think the rule should change, however, you like but "reality" isn't one of them - calling a triple a double because the skater has Zayaked is not marking reality.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For instance, the phantom sequence. If you do a solo triple Lutz then later on another solo triple Lutz, the second triple Lutz is scored as a "sequence". This despite the reality than no second jump was attempted or contemplated as part of this so-called "sequence."

Oh those poor skaters who get involved with attempts and the judges are so kind - not unlike another skater who has never done "the" jump but looks like an attempt yet must revert to an easier edge take off for partial credit

Yup,, that's the attempt rule.

 

[Blades of Passion]

No you don't have to give them creidt you simply apply the rule, which everyone knows. The rules are what they are. The zayak rule has been in place for tens of years and everyone knows how it operates. The combination limit has been in place for years. You can justify why you think the rule should change, however, you like but "reality" isn't one of them - calling a triple a double because the skater has Zayaked is not marking reality.

Yes the zayak rule has been in place, but skaters were never hammered in the past if they accidentally did too many jumps. I remember Yagudin doing 2 Quad Toes, 2 Triple Axels, and 2 Triple Toes in one program. The judges didn't mark him down simply because he "should have" just done a double toe instead of a triple toe.

It's closer to reality to mark the extra jump as a double rather than say the entire jumping pass didn't exist at all. The rule as it is written under CoP is akin to a badly written computer program script that causes inadvertent flaws in the program. The intended purpose of the rule is being distorted.

Also, it should also be noted that if a skater does a Triple jump they have also done a double jump. If you rotated 3 times, you also rotated twice.

 

[Mathman]

No you don't have to give them creidt you simply apply the rule, which everyone knows. The rules are what they are. The zayak rule has been in place for tens of years and everyone knows how it operates.

I think I am with Blades of Passion on this one. The rules are the rules, but long standing does not shield a rule from criticism. A rule is a bad one if it is arbitrary and capricious and if it runs counter to the Big Rule -- the athlete who performs the best ought to win.

The problem with the rule decreeing no credit at all for an extra sequence lies in the severity of the punishment, compared with other Zayak violations.

Skater A begins his program with 3F, 3Lz, 3F, Lz. This skater already has two Zayak violations. His penalty is, he loses 20% of the value of the second flip and 20% of the value of the second Lutz -- a total of 2.3 points.

Skater B does 3F+2T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+2Lo, 3Lz+3T. This skater's last combo is a Zayak violation. The penalty is 100% of the value of both of his last two jumps -- a total of 10 points.

Is this a good rule?

 

[Mathman]

PS. Speaking of "reality," what Oda actually did was

4T+3T
3A
3S+3T
3A
3Lo
3F+2T+2Lo
3Lz
2A

In "the world of rules" (to quote BoP on another thread ), Oda did four combos/sequences. How many did he do in the real world?

 

[Eurofan]

I see he zayaked the 3A. Was the second 3A the "combo" ?

 

[seniorita]

and i thought i had understood this..
so a stupid question..if the second 3axel is charged as a combo does he get any deduction or he just takes the 7.5 of the axel + zero for the invisible one?

 

[Okami]

and i thought i had understood this..
so a stupid question..if the second 3axel is charged as a combo does he get any deduction or he just takes the 7.5 of the axel + zero for the invisible one?

The second 3A is called as a virtual sequence and it's base value is reduced to 80%. Then 3F+2T+2Lo gets 0 points (because it's the fourth combination/sequence in the program).

Skater A begins his program with 3F, 3Lz, 3F, Lz. This skater already has two Zayak violations. His penalty is, he loses 20% of the value of the second flip and 20% of the value of the second Lutz -- a total of 2.3 points.

Skater B does 3F+2T, 3Lz+2T, 3F+2Lo, 3Lz+3T. This skater's last combo is a Zayak violation. The penalty is 100% of the value of both of his last two jumps -- a total of 10 points.

Is this a good rule?

Very interesting example, Mathman! It looks like with CoP "less is more". Literally.

 

[Mathman]

I think Oda intended his first Axel to be in combination, but the landing was too poor to support a second jump. He got -2.80 GOE off the base score of 8.2 for a total of 5.40 for the element.

The second triple Axel was fine . He got +1.20 GOE. That was his chance to tack on an extra 2T and all would have been well. But as Okami explained, since this is a Zayak violation, the rules say that it is scored as if it were a sequence -- that is, he is credited with a "triple Axel+ 0 nothing" sequence.

His score for the element = 8.2 (base value for a triple Axel) x .80 (factor for a sequence) x 1.10 (second half bonus) = 7.216, rounded to 7.22. Plus 1.20 GOE. The GOE does not carry the .80 sequence multiplier or the 1.10 bonus. Total = 8.42 for the element.

That would have been OK. Nobu has 13.82 for his two triple Axel elements combined, dispite the mistake on the first one, which was duly punished in GOE.

Now comes the triple flip. If he had just done a triple flip and stopped, he would have got 5.5 base value x 1.10 second half bonus = 6.05, plus whatever GOE the jump earned (it was pretty good, he probably would have got +1.00 or more).

But by tacking on an ectra 2T+2Lo, he not only received 0 credit for the 2T and 0 credit for the 2Lo, but also they took away the 6.05 that the flip alone was worth.

By the way, I see from the protocols that they did give Nobunari the ten percent second half bonus for this element. It is listed in the protocols as 3F*+2T*+2Lo*. The * means you get an extra 10%. So his score for that element is 0.00 x 1.10 = 0.00, plus 0.00 GOE, for a grand total -- in CoP-land -- of 0.00.

Some people believe that the rules of the CoP are so convoluted that it is a turn-off for the audience to try to keep track of it all, to the detriment of the sport. I offer no opinion on this matter, myself.