Plushenko Will Return

[Tigger]

I have a hard time believing someone w/the various injuiries Evgeni's had over the years won't be hampered in some way and I'm not talking about the knee problems. We're talking about someone who has had a serious groin problem in the past and reconstructive surgery as well IIRC. We all know what Elvis was like after his groin injury. Never the same skater and it was sad to see him saying that everything was fine when it was so obviously not.

I don't want to hear somewhere that Plushy can't walk properly after a performance or has other problems after skating. I met Elvis on two different occasions after shows and he was noticibly limping and favouring the leg the groin tear happened. Whether or not I like Plushy's skating, I want him to have a healthy life afterwards where he can keep up w/that little guy of his. He's a World Champion. He's an Olympic Champion. He's pushed the envelope of skating/jumping. His legacy is assured regardless of what some may think of him. Why risk all of that?

 

[stevlin]

Plushenko

Plushenko has the worst sit spin I've ever seen. Sure he can do the jumps but with the new scoring system, doesn't all the other elements get judged too? I hope he does not come back. I'd rather see someone who never won a gold Olympic medal win one.

 

[jennylovskt]

if anyone has ever been capable of successful return >>> it's the seven-time National Champion, five-time European Champion, three-time World Champion, Olympic gold & silver medalist, and four-time Grand Prix Final gold medalist named Evgeni Plushenko.

I feel the same. He is a tough guy, and that is one of the reasons that I admire him.

Plushenko has the worst sit spin I've ever seen. Sure he can do the jumps but with the new scoring system, doesn't all the other elements get judged too? I hope he does not come back. I'd rather see someone who never won a gold Olympic medal win one.

Oh, you mean that he has a chance to take another Olympics gold? Then he has every reason to come back.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Plushenko has the worst sit spin I've ever seen. Sure he can do the jumps but with the new scoring system, doesn't all the other elements get judged too? I hope he does not come back. I'd rather see someone who never won a gold Olympic medal win one.

With the new scoring system the other elements were not considered for his Oly win. His performane, even by his fans, rated it boring. Then there is the matter of higher scores than Lambiel in spins. yeah.

Joe

 

[astimegoesby]

I also hope Evgeni doesn't return to eligible skater for the same reasons Tigger mentioned. He's got nothing left to prove and a possible comeback isn't worth the risk of permanently injuring himself.

I agree Elvis was never the same skater after his groin injury, but this is the first I've heard about him still limping years afterward. No wonder Elvis quit skating altogether so soon after leaving eligible competition. Elvis didn't have as many other injuries on top of his groin as Evgeny has, either.

I also wonder how much pressure the Russian Federation is putting on Evgeny to return. I'm not an expert on the state of Russian skating right now, but there doesn't seem to be nearly as many successful young Russian skaters in eligible competition anymore. The most popular Russian skaters seem to be all pros...or at least, like Evgeny, just doing shows and aren't competing at the eligible level anymore. I can't help but wonder if the "old" stars like Evgeny aren't being pressured to return since there don't seem to be too many new Russian eliglble skating stars out there to replace them.

I'd have no problem with Evgeny returning to eligible skating if (a) he was healthy and injury-free and (b) I knew for sure he wants to come back and isn't just being pressured by his federation. So far, I'm not 100% sure on either of those things.

Right now, I feel the same way about these "Evgeny comeback" rumours as I did about the "Oksana Baiul Olympic reinstatement" rumours back in the 90s--I'll believe it when I see it. I just hope we won't see Evgeny permanently injure himself in the process.

 

[fumie_fumie]

Elvis

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

It breaks my heart to hear that Elvis still hasn't recovered from his injury. Hi Elvis, Fans haven't forgotten you. Get well and have a happy life!! Ice looks so empty and huge without you and Sandhu.

 

[Mathman]

Then there is the matter of higher scores than Lambiel in spins. yeah.

Plushenko did not get higher scores than Lambiel for spins in their Olympic performances. For the quality of the spins (GOE), the judges gave Stephane a total of +2.36 points to Evgeni's +1.71.

Plushenko did get credit for higher levels of difficulty (i.e., more changes of edge and changes of position, according to the tech specialist). Plushenko had two level 4s and two level 3s, to Lambiel's three level 3s and one level 2. This gave Plushenko a lead of 11.6 to 10.5 in base values.

Overall, for the four jump elements it was Lambiel 13.86, Plushenko 13.31. (The reason Plushenko won was that, while both did a quad, Plushenko did two triple Axels and Lambiel did two double Axels.)

Anyway, these spin numbers support Lambiel's complaint about the CoP -- it rewards unnatural changes of position at the expense of quality of execution. I agree with Stephane.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Plushenko did not get higher scores than Lambiel for spins in their Olympic performances. For the quality of the spins (GOE), the judges gave Stephane a total of +2.36 points to Evgeni's +1.71.

Plushenko did get credit for higher levels of difficulty (i.e., more changes of edge and changes of position, according to the tech specialist). Plushenko had two level 4s and two level 3s, to Lambiel's three level 3s and one level 2. This gave Plushenko a lead of 11.6 to 10.5 in base values.

Overall, for the four jump elements it was Lambiel 13.86, Plushenko 13.31. (The reason Plushenko won was that, while both did a quad, Plushenko did two triple Axels and Lambiel did two double Axels.)

Anyway, these spin numbers support Lambiel's complaint about the CoP -- it rewards unnatural changes of position at the expense of quality of execution. I agree with Stephane.

If that was the case , then Lambiel's correct on quality. but I bet you will never see it in the PCS. yeah, yeah, it's covered in the PCS as much as tempo in transitions are. Does anyone ever look over the PCS protocols as they do with the Technical protocols?

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Does anyone ever look over the PCS protocols as they do with the Technical protocols?

Good point.

Actually, I have spent quite a bit of time looking at program component scores. But I have to admit, I am rarely the wiser for having done so.

It usually seems to me that the judges are using the PCSs just like the old "presentation" mark -- as place holders for ordinals. So I would expect, for the men's LP, that the top guy would get 80 or so and then, after averaging ("regression toward the mean" ), the marks would go down by increments of about 1.75 for second, third, etc.

So if the judges' preference was Plushenko, followed by Buttle, Lambiel, Weir, Lysacek and Joubert, then the marks should have been something like

Plush 81.1 (actual, 82.42)
Buttle 79.4 (actual, 78.50)
Lambiel 77.7 (actual, 76.28)
Weir 75.9 (actual, 75.36)
Lysacek 74.1 (actual, 74.34)
Joubert 72.4 (actual, 73.58)

 

[EvgeniRocks]

He is not missed.

He is very much missed by some of us.


Thank you for the welcome, Mathman.

I have a hard time believing someone w/the various injuiries Evgeni's had over the years won't be hampered in some way and I'm not talking about the knee problems...

I don't want to hear somewhere that Plushy can't walk properly after a performance or has other problems after skating...His legacy is assured regardless of what some may think of him. Why risk all of that?

I know what you're saying, Tigger. I totally agree about not wanting to see Evgeni damage his body any more, even if it means he never skates again. However, my point to my original post is I'm absolutely convinced Plushenko has what it takes to make a successful return in terms of placing high in competitions. Of course, his being able to compete at all is dependent on what his body can tolerate and what he feels is worth the risk. I support him either way because I feel that's what he needs from his fans.

If he does follow through with what he's said in interviews, I think it's going to be a repeat for the umpteenth time of his being able to do something people said he couldn't. He shouldn't be so easily dismissed because he is very tough and extremely determined when he wants...people like Plushenko should never be underestimated.

Plushenko has the worst sit spin I've ever seen.

It's not the best I've seen either, but imo, he more than makes up for it with other stuff he can do.

If he is judged to have better spins than Stephane again, then I will not recognize a true win. If he skates in that lack luster fashion again, I will not recognize a true win.

The man is a show off with superb jumping skills. He knows how to work the audience. It doesn't impress me competitively except for the jumps.

...

His performane, even by his fans, rated it boring

I know a lot of fans who didn't rate it that way at all.

I'm also impressed by his amazing jumping skills, but there are other things about his programs which I appreciate more...I guess it's one of those situations where you feel it or you don't.

He would be a fool not to show off his best skills and natural charisma, but I don't agree his programs and skating can be simplified and reduced to only those things.

 

[Ximena]

I remember Lambiel himself said that he knew his spins were marked low but he didn't care because he wouldn't change them now after so many years of practicing it like that and it was because while they are insanely fast, he didn't change any edges which for COP made him a basic spin. It does sound insane but then again CoP sounds insane in more than one thing.

And he said he was coming back in late this year in regionals competition for the Russian Cup (it's a series of 4-5 comps inside Russia) but now for better or for worse he is actually coming back in April. He has been scheduled to compete at Japan Open in Team Europe along side Lambiel, Sarah and someone else.
I knew he was scheduled for the Gala the next day but he got in the competition after Yagudin withdrew due his apendicitis. I wished he wouldn't compete this early and do it as plan, late October, but well, there it is.

 

[sillylionlove]

I would think that Plushenko is under considerable pressure from the Russian Federation. They are two years away from the Olympics...and let's face it...the current crop of Russian Male skaters are not exactly favorites to win the gold and probably have no chance of winning a gold...or any medal for that matter.

And....remember....the last time a Russian man did not win the Olympic Gold Medal was in 1988...almost 20 years ago!!! I am sure that the Russian Federation does not want to lost this streak and Plushenko is really their only hope.

 

[Medusa]

I would think that Plushenko is under considerable pressure from the Russian Federation. They are two years away from the Olympics...and let's face it...the current crop of Russian Male skaters are not exactly favorites to win the gold and probably have no chance of winning a gold...or any medal for that matter.

And....remember....the last time a Russian man did not win the Olympic Gold Medal was in 1988...almost 20 years ago!!! I am sure that the Russian Federation does not want to lost this streak and Plushenko is really their only hope.

The Russians have 4 really talented men (let's call them the two Andrejs and the two Sergejs) + a few impressive junior skaters. These men are good jumpers, have got good style and seem to enjoy skating. I don't know if it is the pressure from the Russian federation, all these little games they play there - but something seems to happen to them.

Griazev: Junior World Champion in 2004, great first senior season - 5th at Europeans, 11th at Worlds, 2nd at Russian Nationals - since then, everything went downhill, except for one good showing at Nationals last year.
Lutai: first big senior event - 5th at Europeans, he was slow there, but showed so much promise with his elegant soft skating - since then he is struggling with the jumps (though his skating became faster).
Dobrin: had this impressive showing with the two Quad Salchows at TEB in 2006 - but has been horribly inconsistent since then.
Voronov: he is good this season - but what they did with him last season wasn't the greatest idea either, sending him to Worlds instead of Griazev because he placed 3rd at World Juniors, they don't allow their skaters to develop, to gain experience - it's like: you mess up once - you are gone! I hope Urmanov protects Voronov from the sharks and he stays happy and healthy.

The Russians have so much talent among their men right now, they just need to give them time and more chances. The federation messed up - and now they try to save the situation by ruining Plushenko's health. Not sure that will work. I say that they should have a nice group pow-how with the Sergejs and the Andrejs - it might be too late to ensure the Gold at Vancouver (Voronov is the wild card here) - but these guys are relatively young and the Federation should think about their own Olympics now. They shouldn't put their money on Plushenko, they should take the young talents, they should talk to them, give them confidence! I love Plushenko (except for the Torino-Plushenko and his spins) - but I also enjoy the new generation and just have the feeling that Plushenko's time has passed.

By the way, Artem Borudulin should ask Ukraine if they could use a top skater, before he becomes one of the victims of that weird policy over there.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I remember Lambiel himself said that he knew his spins were marked low but he didn't care because he wouldn't change them now after so many years of practicing it like that and it was because while they are insanely fast, he didn't change any edges which for COP made him a basic spin. It does sound insane but then again CoP sounds insane in more than one thing.

Do you actually believe Plushenko spins better than Lambiel? Plushenko does not have better spins than most male skaters: Daisuke, Buttle, Weir, Chan, Oda, shall I go on? and everyone changes edges beautifully, and all of them, except Plushenko sit in their sitspins. And all of them change edges at hi speed. You might want to look more closesly at the spinning and not get so mesmerized by the jumps and how to sell them. JMO

Joe

 

[Ximena]

While I do agree about the fact that Russia has an strong team in their Andreis and Sergeis, I don't agree when you talked about lack of motivation from the fed.

The four of them are trained by amazing coaches and teams so it's not like the fed is saving those coaches from someone else. The Fed sends them to competitions (regionals, GPs, they do test skates, they encourage the jumping etc), it's not like the Japanese fed remember that used to send Honda all alone to compete even though they had other spots but they just wouldn't allow anyone else to go with him. Pissiev complains when he has a reason to, I mean when he pretty much lashed out at Sokolova, while it wasn't pretty he was making a good point that Sokolova didn't care anymore something that Kudriatzev seemed to confirmed.

It does seem they have given up (before Plush's announcement) on Vancouver but they are really having huge hopes for 2014, especially since Sochi got to be the host. Mishin on Friday had an interview when he talked that him with his wife are on a project called "Sochi 2014" because putting aside Plush, Dobrin and Lutai, the rest of Mishin's team are little kids that they are being prepared for Sochi having Arthur Gashinski as their highest hope.

The problems with the Andreis and Sergeis right now is that they are not consistent and Dobrin has the worst luck when it comes to health (he reminds me of Abt in more than one sense). While Voronov seemed to be the little hope left, I actually think Lutai and Dobrin are the most talented of the four, and Dobrin has the charisma on his side. I don't know what has happened to Griazev lately that he seemed to fade out for the last season.

Plushenko's come back to me it's a good thing for this guy for one reason, because even a bad performance of Plushenko it's still a good one which IMO of course would help the Russian team to regain spots. They finally went back to 3 for Euros but they still have only one for Worlds. The RF is praying Voronov will make enough to at least have two and quite possibly in 09 that would mean Plush and someone else that hopefully will make Russia regain those three spots for Olys on the next season.

Plushenko's come back is a bad thing for Lutai and Dobrin due the fact that the three of them are Mishin's; and Mishin will always always put Plushenko as his priority. Lutai finally shined out a little this past two season and who was missing those seasons? Plush. Mishina has said it several times that when Plush is around Mishin pays very little attention to the rest, and now that time he had for everyone that's not Plush, Lutai will have to split it with Dobrin.

All and all I do hope very much that Plush comes back, but as I said I wish he would have waited more and not to do it as early as April.

 

[Ximena]

Do you actually believe Plushenko spins better than Lambiel? Plushenko does not have better spins than most male skaters: Daisuke, Buttle, Weir, Chan, Oda, shall I go on? and everyone changes edges beautifully, and all of them, except Plushenko sit in their sitspins. And all of them change edges at hi speed. You might want to look more closesly at the spinning and not get so mesmerized by the jumps and how to sell them. JMO

Joe

I never said that Plushenko had better spins than Lambiel. None in his right mind would say that any skater has better spins than Lambiel. What I said is that when Lambiel was asked about his spins being marked as low, he used to comment that he knew that because he didn't change edges or positions but that he didn't care about it and wouldn't change it now just due the CoP because it took him so long to get those spins. For CoP some of Lambiels spins (well not this season but the past ones) were easy because of the lack of edges or positions, so he would get a lower mark but ton of GOE. A clear example is Worlds 06, Joubert's combo spin before his straight line was bad, he has a very bad camel spin that changed into a sit spin that it's not low but but change edges and got level 3, Lambiel did the same type of spin (the combo one) that was impressive and got him an SO and yet his was only level 2. It's not new that a lot of skaters are doing horrible spins positions just to increase their level, which they have to because CoP award them for it.

 

[Mathman]

...a lot of skaters are doing horrible spins positions just to increase their level, which they have to because CoP award them for it.

If Dorothy Hamill came back, her spins would be level one. IMHO the CoP rewards crapola over excellence.

 

[EvgeniRocks]

I would think that Plushenko is under considerable pressure from the Russian Federation. They are two years away from the Olympics...and let's face it...the current crop of Russian Male skaters are not exactly favorites to win the gold and probably have no chance of winning a gold...or any medal for that matter.

And....remember....the last time a Russian man did not win the Olympic Gold Medal was in 1988...almost 20 years ago!!! I am sure that the Russian Federation does not want to lost this streak and Plushenko is really their only hope.

The Russians have so much talent among their men right now, they just need to give them time and more chances. The federation messed up - and now they try to save the situation by ruining Plushenko's health.

I did read in a Plush interview something about one his motivations for returning to competition is the situation with Russia's other skaters being too young and not developed enough in the sport. Still, I'm not convinced his decision had anything to do with being pressured to the point he's doing something he doesn't want to. He's been talking participating in the 2010 Games & continuing with other comps since 2006. I know he has said otherwise as well, but what I've heard most consistently from Evgeni is his desire to continue with his career as it's been.

No doubt the Federation doesn't want to lose, but then who does? I just don't know what to believe about the suspicion Evgeni is being used with absolute disregard to his health...I've heard quite a few people say it. Doesn't he have a choice?

Anyway, take a look at these two YouTube vids if you're interested. One is from 2006 and in it Evgeni specifically mentions he wants to compete in the 2010 Olympics. The other is from a year ago, and he again states he wants to return to competition.


2006 interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXgdnwv6Sz4

February 2007 interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2KKycBD-rg


It's hard for me to think he is all of sudden being pressured into anything because his country is desperate or whatever when he was saying in 2006 he wanted to go to Vancouver.

Here's an IFS interview from May 2007 where he talks a little about his motivation for coming back, some of what he's doing to make that happen, and what's he's been doing in general:


http://www.ifsmagazine.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=436


IMO, I don't think Plushenko ever really wanted to retire from competitive skating. I don't even think he had planned to, but a couple of things forced his hand like surgery and issues in his personal life.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sorry I misread you, Ximena. I can see the poor judges, saying to themselves, well he did change more edges than the others even if the spin looked crapola. (thanks to MM) Agree. CoP needs a thorough overhaul.

Dobrin and Varonov are two Russian male skaters, I see great possibilities for. The Russian problem is they don't have the old system and skaters like D and V need special attention from the masters. They have to pay for all that now. I wonder if there is a system of getting sponsors to pick up the tabs. There's plenty of money Russia now.

Joe