Project "Medvedeva", a victory by the rules | Golden Skate

Project "Medvedeva", a victory by the rules

Tyranid

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Here is the controversial article from Feb. 1st written by Sport-Express contributor Elena Vaitsehovskaya.

I wasn’t sure if this is worth posting but I think that this is a good read.
http://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/961550/

The bolded part in the text alludes to the title.

Project “Medvedeva”, a victory by the rulebook.


The Russian triumph in the ladies’ event, where 3 Russians took the whole podium, did not surprise anyone. Here’s what did, though: the 5.46 point difference, with seemingly equal efforts, between the European champion Evgenia Medvedeva and an almost perfectly skated Elena Radionova.
When the score show up on the screen, it is difficult for most figure skaters to hold in their true emotions. In the moment, when Evgenia Medvedeva, happily observed her scores, Radionova’s face clearly showed: that everything that’s happening today is a tragedy for her. Plus, she was stronger than last year during the GPF, where Elena (also with a clean skate [tn: talking about the LP]) lost to Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. After all, during that Final Radionova had a fall in the SP, and in the FS the competition between the two athletes was on equal grounds. They even finished their programs with absolutely equal TES.


Remembering Lipnitskaia.

In Bratislava, Elena squeezed out everything that she capable of in her free skate. So how do we explain the almost 6 point difference?
If we wish, of course, we can methodically dissect both performances, counting in detail, what caused such an advantage. A reason for that, in part, was the ease with which the young campion stamped her jumps, and also, that 5 of her jumping passes were in the second half of the program, and many musical and choreographic “details” which influence the second mark. However, we should be talking, in my opinion, about a different thing. About that in Bratislava, we had a collision of two completely different approaches to figure skating.
Radionova’s loss was accepted, by her fans, (and not only them), with pain. This always happens, when the life of a figure skater, during a long period of time, passes in front of the public eye, and everyone remembers how difficult that path sometimes is. This happened to Adelina Sotnikova, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, and dozens of others, who skated before. Overcoming yourself after injuries, and a plethora of other problems concerning female growth, is a respectable thing. Radionova was skating while overcoming herself. To note, this wasn’t the first time. She skated courageously and a the same time beautifully with no mistakes, realizing with all of her existence every move, every musical nuance. Even during times when she missed the music because she had to “save” the more difficult parts of the program.
Medvedeva looked completely different on the ice – like a person, professionally chiseled to execute a very specific task. Since her win at the Grand Prix Final, she became even thinner, causing here already-light jumps to become completely weightless.
In this regard, [Medvedeva] can be compared to Julia Lipnitskaia of the Olympic season, where her coach did everything possible to make her not gain a single gram of extra weight, which causes a change in figure, and later, technique. Basically, the goal of that season was to squeeze out the maximum from project “Lipnitskaia”. At any price.
This was possible to realize. Julia won the European championships in brilliant style, surpassing Sotnikova with a virtually mistake-less skate from the latter skater, causing her to make the Olympic team, and be able to skate in the team event where she earned her Olympic gold. Also, she finished the season with a silver at the world championships.


Human Material

In truth, it would be completely unfair to judge a coach for losing interest in Lipnitskaia after that season, leaving her alone face-to-face with all of her problems. Eteri Tutberidze simply already had a completely different project. After all, big sport is - on one hand, results, on the other – playing by the rules. If the rules allow little girls with childlike bodies to compete against grown-up athletes and “kill” these athletes with difficulty and lightness, beyond the strength of an adult body, then why not bank on that?
Something similar was practiced by Stanislav Zhuk, during his time, who is deservedly considered one of the best coaches in the world. Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergein Grinkov, who later became two-time Oympic champions, were a pair that, if you will, is born once in a century. Their predecessors, Marina Cherkasova/Sergei Sharhai (with a colossal difference in height and weight between partners) were, on the other hand, a 100% realization of coaching technologies. They were the case where coaches like to use the term, unnerving to many, “material”.
In ladies’ singles this idea is not new to anyone: all we need to do is to remember the Olympic victories of Tara Lipinski or Sara Hughes, whose overwhelming pressure made the legendary, in all aspects of this word, Michelle Kwan lose two Olympics in a row, and in Salt Lake City, a no-less-legendary Irina Slutskaya.
But here’s the question, why didn’t any American coach get an idea to put these kind of skaters on an “assembly line”, artificially restraining growth and development of a girl’s organism with the harshest of diets? Now of course this is all personal choice: gold medals in a sport can pay off a lot of sacrifices. I was once a witness, of how a dad of a young female athlete, to whom doctors recommended to pull his daughter out of a sport due to a serious inflammation of the jawline and the risk of losing her teeth? Do you know what he answered? “Then we’ll make her golden ones. Out of an Olympic medal”.
I think I won’t be mistaken, if I say that the main objective of “Project Medvedeva”, is not a long and pretty career. I think it is to win everything this season, including worlds. If such is true, then in the context of this objective, what happens later to the athlete is of no one’s concern. So even if Zhenia goes through puberty relatively clean, she will still inevitably fall into the same trap as Radionova - she will, due to completely objective reasons, lose the ability to compete against another “wonder-girl”, who (and this is not out of the question) will become another “project” of her own coach.

For now though, we have the ability to admire, applaud, be touched and… feel sorry for those who are older. Well, what can we do – such is sport.

Disclaimer: the online version of this article does not have the "project Medvedeva" part in the title.
 
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Tyranid

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
I wanted to put the text in a spoiler but the coding is not working :(

Lets put this in a spoiler
.
 

MalAssada

Medalist
Joined
Jun 28, 2014
That is very interesting. I am one of those that agree that Medvedeva will not have a long career. I don't think any Russian skater can swim instead of sinking for multiple seasons in a row. Actually, I am quite impressed that Radionova managed to, while growing.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Interesting article. This is the second article I've read that basically says that Tutberidze is only interested in 'the shiny new toy'.

I think there will be more skaters looking to cascade jumps in their programs as much as possible and probably try to add tanos to increase difficulty - Urmanov has already mentioned adding them to Lipnitskaia's routines for next year.
 

skylark

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Something similar was practiced by Stanislav Zhuk, during his time, who is deservedly considered one of the best coaches in the world. Ekaterina Gordeeva and Sergein Grinkov, who later became two-time Oympic champions, were a pair that, if you will, is born once in a century. Their successors [tn: Vaitsehovskaya made a mistake here], Marina Cherkasova/Sergei Sharhai (with a colossal difference in height and weight between partners) were, on the other hand, a 100% realization of coaching technologies.

The article said Cherkasova/Shaklrai were G&G's predecessors, which according to Wikipedia is correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Cherkasova

I watched videos of this pair a few years ago and was stunned by the feeling that this pair was not just a predecessor, but a precursor of Gordeeva and Grinkov, in style of moves and appearance. Of course G&G, as the author of the article rightly pointed out, were a once in a hundred years phenomenon.

In Gordeeva's book My Sergei, she mentioned that when pairing her with Sergei, the coaches/club/? had her family background checked out to make sure she wouldn't grow too big or tall. Also, they restricted her diet even though she was already tiny.

This is, in my view, very relevant to the current situation with the Russian baby girls. I thought Medvedeva looked pale in an unhealthy way at Europeans.

After all, big sport is - on one hand, results, on the other – playing by the rules. If the rules allow little girls with childlike bodies to compete against grown-up athletes and “kill” these athletes with difficulty and lightness, beyond the strength of an adult body, then why not bank on that?

What are your thoughts? And how does it relate to Carlo Fassi saying that eliminating figures would result in 15-year-old jumping beans winning? Of course there are exceptions, and I'm really proud of the national and international judges who are upholding and rewarding more adult artistry in Ashley, Gracie, Carolina, Mao.

But as we see at every competition, it's very hard for the twenty-something women to have the technical consistency ... or is it more resilience than consistency? ... to compete with these 80 or 85 pound pre-pubescent jumpers.

:thank: for posting this article.
 
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MsLiinaLii

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Mar 8, 2013
IMO Medvedeva will have a long career, she has a fighting spirit that Lipnitskaya lacked and will manage with puberty well:)
 

Fayruza

Match Penalty
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Sep 10, 2014
Voitsekhovskaya obviously has a grudge against Eteri - not the first article of hers to tell that Tutberidze is manipulative and unsupportive of her students.
But given what happened to Polina Shelepen and Yulia, I'm sorta starting to listen to her...
 

Seruleane

Final Flight
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Jan 11, 2014
Hmm, I'm not sure if this is meant to be a serious article, vs. tabloid type fodder. It seems more like the latter, though as an Elena fan, I can appreciate her sentiment towards Elena's growth struggles, and how disheartening it may be to see her not win even when she skates her best :agree2:. I just don't think the article is fair to Evgenia or Eteri, and may even be considered slander if it is untrue. I don't know that we have any proof of Evgenia (or previously Yulia) "artificially" restricting their growth - what does that even mean? By starving themselves, by taking certain medications to impede growth, or are they simply following a strict diet like most other athletes (including Elena)? Do we have proof that specifically Eteri's students are doing this, and not the other Russian figure skaters, or is this all speculation (which is what I suspect)? Please let me know if what I'm saying is totally off base, as I am not from Russia and do not understand Russian, so I figure the people living there who are in the figure skating circles may know more about this than I do. But, I don't think people should make these types of assumptions without hard evidence, as it is extremely damaging to a skater's reputation. I don't know what to say, except that I hope the allegations are not true :noshake:. I do agree with the general sentiment and viewpoint expressed by the article that there are so many young Russian female skaters up and coming, that the more mature athletes, though they are still very good, just cannot keep up, and it is sad to see them tossed aside, when in almost any other country, they would have much greater longevity. I also think that if Eteri really has the mindset that the article accuses her of, then I hope all her students leave her, as that is not at all what a coach should be.

I also don't agree with the poster who said Evgenia has more staying power b/c she has a tougher mindset than Yulia. What, exactly about Yulia's situation or outcome indicates that she doesn't have a fighting spirit? She switched coaches to Urmanov and appears to be thriving. Let's not judge who is tougher until we see Evgenia go through what Yulia went through last year.
 
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MsLiinaLii

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Mar 8, 2013
I also don't agree with the poster who said Evgenia has more staying power b/c she has a tougher mindset than Yulia. What, exactly about Yulia's situation or outcome indicates that she doesn't have a fighting spirit? She switched coaches to Urmanov and appears to be thriving. Let's not judge who is tougher until we see Evgenia go through what Yulia went through last year.

I will explain why I said so.
Evgenia falls occasionally(2 axels usually), but she comes back strong and never seems to be distracted by the fall but rather comes back stronger as she knows she has no do better to compensate for that mistake.
I did not see(again, my opinion) the same fighting spirit in Julia. Her 1st year in Seniors(2012-2013) was far from perfect, with multiple mistakes in FS. In 2013-2014 she had amazing performances, but also she had a meltdown at Cup of Russia(she won it, but that FS was, emm.. bad). Last year she started struggling, and, back then, she was 16 years old. Medvedeva now is the same age as Julia was in September-October of last year. She is a lot taller than she was last season and seems to be dealing with it well. I saw her in person(and luckily got a photo with her, yay!) at Junior Worlds. She lloks like a normal teenager. Tbh, I am a dancer and for me it is absolutely allright for girls to be thin(not anorexic of course, but if people's health is not in danger, it is ok).

Saying all that, I am a biig fan of Julia since her Junior Season and want her to come back stronger than ever, fingers crossed that her work with Urmanov will pay off.

Also, I a m personally disgusted by this article. It is such a one-way opinion, which favours one skater over the other. I hope Evgenia and Eteri prove this "journalist"(don't like her for multiple reasons way before now) wrong and contonue their slayage.
 
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Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Hmm, I'm not sure if this is meant to be a serious article, vs. tabloid type fodder. It seems more like the latter, though as an Elena fan, I can appreciate her sentiment towards Elena's growth struggles, and how disheartening it may be to see her not win even when she skates her best :agree2:.

I think Elena has been blessed and curse by the fact that she's never been the shining new star in the spotlight - her first year in the senior ranks was the year of the Olympics and she flew under the radar because she was ineligible, the following year the spotlight was on Lipnitskaia and this year on Evgenia.

I just don't think the article is fair to Evgenia or Eteri, and may even be considered slander if it is untrue. I don't know that we have any proof of Evgenia (or previously Yulia) "artificially" restricting their growth - what does that even mean? By starving themselves, by taking certain medications to impede growth, or are they simply following a strict diet like most other athletes (including Elena)? Do we have proof that specifically Eteri's students are doing this, and not the other Russian figure skaters, or is this all speculation (which is what I suspect)? Please let me know if what I'm saying is totally off base, as I am not from Russia and do not understand Russian, so I figure the people living there who are in the figure skating circles may know more about this than I do. But, I don't think people should make these types of assumptions without hard evidence, as it is extremely damaging to a skater's reputation. I don't know what to say, except that I hope the allegations are not true :noshake:.

There were several articles with quotes from Lipnitskaia or Eteri during the Olympic year that alluded to an extremely strict diet.

Below is an article with a quote from Eteri.
One of her greatest problems now, coach Etery Tutberidze says, is keeping her weight down: 'She struggles with it... in my work, I never faced such cases - she just cannot eat at all. And I'm very sorry that she had to endure so much, but I cannot help it.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2561766/Ice-skating-sensation-Yulia-Lipnitskaya-15-expected-draw-Russias-biggest-sporting-TV-audience-tonights-skate-against-South-Korean-Olympic-champion.html


I also think that if Eteri really has the mindset that the article accuses her of, then I hope all her students leave her, as that is not at all what a coach should be.

I think several others have mentioned it as well, there seems to be a pattern with Eteri's skaters that once they hit puberty she tends to move on from them.

I also don't agree with the poster who said Evgenia has more staying power b/c she has a tougher mindset than Yulia. What, exactly about Yulia's situation or outcome indicates that she doesn't have a fighting spirit? She switched coaches to Urmanov and appears to be thriving. Let's not judge who is tougher until we see Evgenia go through what Yulia went through last year.

Agree, if Lipnitskaia didn't have a fighting spirit last year when she was struggling she would have retired and done show skating, or stuck with Eteri and the status quo vs. moving to another coach and like hundreds of miles from her family.
 
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[email protected]

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The article said Cherkasova/Shaklrai were G&G's predecessors, which according to Wikipedia is correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Cherkasova

Most of the comments about this article in the Russian media were very negative. And yes, Vaytsekhovskaya wrote that G/G were predecessors of C/S. But as she was ridiculed in the comments about having little knowledge about FS (as an athlete she was a diver) she quickly change the word to "successors". That's one of the comments from her blog:

bal
Самый шедевр статьи "Гордеева/Гриньков и последовавшие за ними Черкасова/Шахрай и Пестова/Леонович". А ничего, что Гордеева/Гриньков стали олимпийскими чемпионами в 1988 под руководством Леоновича??? После этого и ко всей статье невозможно относиться серьезно. А ведь раньше мне нравились статьи Вайцеховской, к сожалению, все больше и больше от них стало отдавать откровенной халтурой...
16:57 30 ЯНВАРЯ

"The main masterpiece of the article "Gordeeva/Grinkov and Cherkasova/Shakray and Pestova/Leonovich who followed them" What about Gordeeva/Grinkov became OGM in 1988 with Leonovich as a coach? After that it is impossible to treat this article seriously...."
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
How many of these obsessive threads picking apart Evgenia do we need here - the Russian women's thread and the other 44-page thread aren't enough? And why do people act like Russia is the only country with "little girls" competing in seniors? Doesn't Satoko have a "childlike" body too? And Karen Chen, and Elisabet Tursynbaeva? What about all those other Russian girls who aren't coached by Eteri and are also quite tiny? I watched the Junior Championship and there were several who were more or less the same size as Evgenia, many who don't even live in Moscow. Is Eteri controlling their weight, too, somehow? I'm surprised nobody has tried to blame her for the Zika virus or El Nino yet!

So many things to take issue with...but it's really not worth it. Some people here are so sure that Evgenia will be a flash in the pan, just like they predicted a lot of other things that didn't happen. We could make a very long list of predictions that never came true.

This isn't real journalism, but a worthless editorial piece from someone whose bias is clear.
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
I think several others have mentioned it as well, there seems to be a pattern with Eteri's skaters that once they hit puberty she tends to move on from them.

Two skaters equals a pattern? I suppose you are including Serafima, but nobody has supplied any proof that puberty had anything to do with her move back to St. Petersburg (not to mention that she switched coaches yet again there, so you can't say that Eteri was the "problem" any more than the other coach was).
 

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
I will explain why I said so.
Evgenia falls occasionally(2 axels usually), but she comes back strong and never seems to be distracted by the fall but rather comes back stronger as she knows she has no do better to compensate for that mistake.
I did not see(again, my opinion) the same fighting spirit in Julia. Her 1st year in Seniors(2012-2013) was far from perfect, with multiple mistakes in FS. In 2013-2014 she had amazing performances, but also she had a meltdown at Cup of Russia(she won it, but that FS was, emm.. bad). Last year she started struggling, and, back then, she was 16 years old. Medvedeva now is the same age as Julia was in September-October of last year. She is a lot taller than she was last season and seems to be dealing with it well. I saw her in person(and luckily got a photo with her, yay!) at Junior Worlds. She lloks like a normal teenager. Tbh, I am a dancer and for me it is absolutely allright for girls to be thin(not anorexic of course, but if people's health is not in danger, it is ok).

Saying all that, I am a biig fan of Julia since her Junior Season and want her to come back stronger than ever, fingers crossed that her work with Urmanov will pay off.

Also, I a m personally disgusted by this article. It is such a one-way opinion, which favours one skater over the other. I hope Evgenia and Eteri prove this "journalist"(don't like her for multiple reasons way before now) wrong and contonue their slayage.

I agree with you that Evgenia has a fighting sprit, but I would not go so far as to say Julia lacks a fighting sprit. Eteri strikes me as a what have you done for me lately person. She coaches many skaters and when Julia starting having problems, Eteri either could not help her fix them or did not care to help because she had Evgenia ready to come up. Yulia wanted out early on, but the Russian Skating Fed made them try to work on it. Eteri and Yulia's disconnect was apparent at SA. Eteri even reportedly made comments to Tara Lipinski about Julia's attitude that she should not have IMO made. Yulia was in a toxic environment. No matter how much your fighting sprit is, situations like this are hard to overcome. Her jumps were failing her, she did not know why, and she had a coach that had given up on her to push the next big thing.

Hopefully Evgenia's career can continue successfully, but only time will tell. I have some questions marks by her mainly because of her reliance on overusing the tano and heavy backloading because I think body changes might make it harder for her to do it otherwise you would think more people would do it. Also personally, I would like to see some ISU rules limiting it, but that's a separate issue.

Anyway, I will see her at Worlds. Was hoping for Julia too because I like a little soap opera in my life, but it was not to be.
 

[email protected]

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Mar 26, 2014
Hmm, I'm not sure if this is meant to be a serious article, vs. tabloid type fodder. It seems more like the latter, though as an Elena fan, I can appreciate her sentiment towards Elena's growth struggles, and how disheartening it may be to see her not win even when she skates her best :agree2:. I just don't think the article is fair to Evgenia or Eteri, and may even be considered slander if it is untrue. I don't know that we have any proof of Evgenia (or previously Yulia) "artificially" restricting their growth - what does that even mean? By starving themselves, by taking certain medications to impede growth, or are they simply following a strict diet like most other athletes (including Elena)? Do we have proof that specifically Eteri's students are doing this, and not the other Russian figure skaters, or is this all speculation (which is what I suspect)? Please let me know if what I'm saying is totally off base, as I am not from Russia and do not understand Russian, so I figure the people living there who are in the figure skating circles may know more about this than I do. But, I don't think people should make these types of assumptions without hard evidence, as it is extremely damaging to a skater's reputation. I don't know what to say, except that I hope the allegations are not true :noshake:. I do agree with the general sentiment and viewpoint expressed by the article that there are so many young Russian female skaters up and coming, that the more mature athletes, though they are still very good, just cannot keep up, and it is sad to see them tossed aside, when in almost any other country, they would have much greater longevity. I also think that if Eteri really has the mindset that the article accuses her of, then I hope all her students leave her, as that is not at all what a coach should be.

I also don't agree with the poster who said Evgenia has more staying power b/c she has a tougher mindset than Yulia. What, exactly about Yulia's situation or outcome indicates that she doesn't have a fighting spirit? She switched coaches to Urmanov and appears to be thriving. Let's not judge who is tougher until we see Evgenia go through what Yulia went through last year.

I never participate in Russian FS boards. No matter how active some "pcs analysts" and "friends" of Russian ladies are here, GS is still much more civilized. The worst thing there was "Yulia vs. Adelina". Now it is dying down. But Eteri vs. CSKA is still on. Vaytsekhovskaya has some ties to CSKA and grudges against Eteri. In fact she represents one of the factions being a little more than just another blogger. This article is predominantly the accumulation of dirt - these all "facts" could be found in the boards.

Two things I am personally sure about:

1. Whatever questionable practices could be applied in Russian FS Eteri should not be the scapegoat. For one thing, it is not Eteri's pupil who had anorexia issue last year. Medvedeva herself ridiculed the conspiracy theory that she is on the strict diet. Why should I trust Vaytsekhovskaya and not Medvedeva? And what about Proklova who shined before 14 and struggles since then? Or Gubanova who was meant to be the next biggest thing? They have nothing to do with Eteri (Proklova is CSKA).

http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/russiateam/892743.html

2. New era of Russian ladies just started several years ago. We see how strong are 12-14 year old now. On the other hand, it would be just stupid to assume that after all the efforts the coaches did not want a long term return on their assets. I believe that Eteri invested a lot in Yulia, Zhenya, and Polina to bring them to their level. Those who think it is just a factory producing one season prodigies are fundamentally wrong. She might not have another Polina for some years. Why would she be interested in scraping her investment in Zhenya after this season when Polina can be just injured? Yes, it is safe to assume that out of 10 brilliant 14 year old girls only 2-3 will continue to shine at 20. And we do not know who will survive out of the first wave. I believe that all of them still have chances: Liza, Yulia, Adelina, Anna followed by the second wave of Zhenya, Lena, Maria, and even Sima. But I know this is not realistic that everyone will be around after 2018. So what?
 

silverfoxes

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 16, 2014
I agree with you that Evgenia has a fighting sprit, but I would not go so far as to say Julia lacks a fighting sprit. Eteri strikes me as a what have you done for me lately person. She coaches many skaters and when Julia starting having problems, Eteri either could not help her fix them or did not care to help because she had Evgenia ready to come up. Yulia wanted out early on, but the Russian Skating Fed made them try to work on it. Eteri and Yulia's disconnect was apparent at SA. Eteri even reportedly made comments to Tara Lipinski about Julia's attitude that she should not have IMO made. Yulia was in a toxic environment. No matter how much your fighting sprit is, situations like this are hard to overcome. Her jumps were failing her, she did not know why, and she had a coach that had given up on her to push the next big thing.

Do you know all of that for absolute fact? Or is it just stuff that's been repeated over & over enough times that you believe it to be fact? You really think Eteri took time out at SA to talk one on one with Tara Lipinski about Yulia's issues? How come nobody else was privy to that conversation? Is it not possible that Tara embellished a bit to create a dramatic storyline?

You are correct that Eteri coaches a lot of skaters (although she isn't a one-woman show, which people conveniently seem to forget). She has several older male skaters who aren't exactly winning everything in sight or anything close to it, so I don't see how you can claim she gives up on someone who isn't medaling everywhere. Not with a straight face, anyway.
 
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