Question about Ice Dance - the Italians and Lithuanians?

[Jasper]

I've relatively new to Ice Dance and I don't know much at all about past champions; I only really know the current teams. But I've heard Susie and some other American commentators mention an Italian team and a Lithuanian team coming back this season for the Torino Games to compete against N/K, etc. and I was wondering if someone could give me some background on them. Their names, for instance. Also, how likely is it that they will challenge for the podium against the current crop? I'd like to see N/K have some competition, for once, and I don't see B/A or G/G beating them for the first time ever at the Olympics, that's too much to ask at this point. So will their returns really make ice dance more interesting in 2006?

 

[CDMM1991]

I don't know too too much about their backgrounds, but I do know their names The Italian team is Barbara Fusar-Poli and Maurizio Margaglio. They were the 2001 Worlds Champions, and the 2002 Olympic Bronze Medallists. A lot of people complain that Barbara is a much, much more skilled skater than Maurizio but some people enjoy them nonetheless. Since their retirement in 2002 they have been coaching. Interestingly, they have been coaching a team that they will be fighting against for the two Italian bids to the Olympics.

The Lithuanian team is Margarita Drobiasko and Povilas Vanagas. They placed fifth at the 2002 Olympic Games, believing they should have been fourth, ahead of Bourne and Kraatz who fell in the free dance. They also placed a controversial fourth at the 2002 World Championships; they thought they should have placed higher. I believe they did some coaching as well and are now training with Igor Shpilband, Belbin and Agosto's coach. They are now close friends with Tanith and Ben.

 

[rain]

The Lithuanian team is Margarita Drobiasko and Povilas Vanagas. They placed fifth at the 2002 Olympic Games, believing they should have been fourth, ahead of Bourne and Kraatz who fell in the free dance. They also placed a controversial fourth at the 2002 World Championships; they thought they should have placed higher. I believe they did some coaching as well and are now training with Igor Shpilband, Belbin and Agosto's coach. They are now close friends with Tanith and Ben.

They did win a World bronze before retiring - that would have been in 2003, I believe.
Anyway, just to add - they weren't the only ones who thought they should have been third in 2002. In fact, so many thought C/S (yes, the current team, but much weaker at the time) were gifted due to some sort of political deal that many of the ice dancers who competed got together and signed a petition protesting the results, which Albena Denkova presented to the ISU. Nothing ever came of it - but we did get COP. This kind of protest fro the skaters was quite unprecedented at the time, particularly in ice dance.
Since then, I've heard a number of commentators speculate that D/V (yes, they were always a favorite of mine, I admit) would do very well under COP, as they had great difficulty and basic skills. It will be interesting to see if that is, indeed, the case.
I've always kicked myself for not taping their exhibition number after their 2003 bronze win. It was their farewell and it was absolutely breathtaking. So, if anybody happens to have that......

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

They did win a World bronze before retiring - that would have been in 2003, I believe.
Anyway, just to add - they weren't the only ones who thought they should have been third in 2002. In fact, so many thought C/S (yes, the current team, but much weaker at the time) were gifted due to some sort of political deal that many of the ice dancers who competed got together and signed a petition protesting the results, which Albena Denkova presented to the ISU. Nothing ever came of it - but we did get COP. This kind of protest fro the skaters was quite unprecedented at the time, particularly in ice dance.
Since then, I've heard a number of commentators speculate that D/V (yes, they were always a favorite of mine, I admit) would do very well under COP, as they had great difficulty and basic skills. It will be interesting to see if that is, indeed, the case.
I've always kicked myself for not taping their exhibition number after their 2003 bronze win. It was their farewell and it was absolutely breathtaking. So, if anybody happens to have that......

They won the world bronze (Lithuania's first world medal) in 2000. It was an exquisite free dance.

Some believe they should've pulled ahead of both the Italians and the Canadians in Salt Lake, since both pairs fell.

 

[Jill]

You can count me among the ones who thought they were robbed a medal in 2002. I hope if they do make it to the Olympics in Italy, they get shown on TV. I would love to see them skate again.

 

[Antilles]

IIRC, if D&V had placed third in the FD at SLC, that would have only left them fourth overall, due to their fifth place finishes in both the CDs and OD. The petition there was fairly moot. Wolrds that year was another story.

Their Spente Le Stelle program from 2000, (and revived in 2001) was breathtaking. One of my favourite FDs. In 2002, when just about everyone had an FD that I hated, their Quelques Cris was one of the only ones I liked. They seemed to do ok in their COP outings early in the season, but they didn't face much competiton.

I have heard nothing of FP&M's programs this year, except from themselves. They seemed certain that they had greatly improved and that they could win gold. I always love it when skaters who have retired think the sport has gone downhill since they left, and that they could beat anyone out there. I have my doubts about these two putting their money where their mouths are.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

IIRC, if D&V had placed third in the FD at SLC, that would have only left them fourth overall, due to their fifth place finishes in both the CDs and OD. The petition there was fairly moot. Wolrds that year was another story.

Their Spente Le Stelle program from 2000, (and revived in 2001) was breathtaking. One of my favourite FDs. In 2002, when just about everyone had an FD that I hated, their Quelques Cris was one of the only ones I liked. They seemed to do ok in their COP outings early in the season, but they didn't face much competiton.

I have heard nothing of FP&M's programs this year, except from themselves. They seemed certain that they had greatly improved and that they could win gold. I always love it when skaters who have retired think the sport has gone downhill since they left, and that they could beat anyone out there. I have my doubts about these two putting their money where their mouths are.

Since they were apparently undermarked for the Free, would that not lead to some people to think they were also undermarked for the CD and OD?

Joe

 

[~Muffin~]

Even though I am half Italian myself I can't say that I am fan of Fusar-Poli/Margaglio (wow I can't believe I took the time to type out their whole last names ::rolls eyes: They totally blew the last shred of respect I had for them in their 'Blades on Ice' interview. Can anyone sound so arrogant? No only they can do it. They are really good at it, that might be their biggest talent. They were like, 'We watched the 2005 Europeans and we realized something was missing and that was us, we are so much better than everyone else and we know it. We are going to win in Torino and show them who is the best'.
Well sorry to bust your over-inflated ego but you simply arent the best and I rather not see you within ten football fields of the Olympic podium. You and Nav/Kos can lick to ice smooth for Delobel/Schoenfelder, Belbin/Agosto, and Denkova/Staviyski for the victory lap after they accept their Olympic medals. And after you lose please don't whine about judging issues, because you have them. Now if you want an Olympic medal you can call the Mafia and they can give you the gold in return for them giving Plushenko the men's gold- but you would have to have them at gunpoint and blackmail Ben Agosto into the fact that he sleeps on Superman sheets, which he really doesn't. But you two are coniving little snakes and have connections in the Italian mafia and you can blow your way, literally to the podium. But don't expect anyone to give a shit about you since you will be forgotten a month later at the Worlds where you get 12th, and Bel/Ago win. Hey it happened to Stefan Lindemann in 2004 Worlds when he got silver only because it was in Germany, then got 14th in Russia the next year.
That hometown judging isn't too good. Let the best man and woman win and let that not be you. Maurzio can drive the zamboni as Barbara works at the concesssion fan. Hey Babs why don't you pop out more kids with your hot husdand? and Maurizio you were born to drive a zamboni.

Arriveldechi F-P/M.​

 

[JonnyCoop]

IIRC, if D&V had placed third in the FD at SLC, that would have only left them fourth overall, due to their fifth place finishes in both the CDs and OD. The petition there was fairly moot. Wolrds that year was another story.

Thank you for bringing this up! What frequently seems to get overlooked in this "controversy" is the fact that the Free Dance alone does not determine the overall finish, and there are compulsuries and the OD to factor in as well. That being said -- I, too, feel that D/V were undermarked in the Free Dance -- they skated before both F-P/M and B/K and I thought man, those marks seem really low; however I also feel, that at least in the case of B/K, in order to place them behind D/V, they would have had to have gotten marks lower than they would have deserved in spite of the error, assuming they would have even considered doing so. And as Joe mentioned, who knows if they were undermarked in the other phases as well? Seems to me with their technique, especially alongside that of F-P/M, they should have been a bit higher in at least the compulsury round. F-P/M is another issue entirely as I still feel to this day that that Free Dance they had the nerve to show up there with was one of the biggest pieces of cheesy crap I'd ever seen. Had they not been the reigning World champions, I think they would have dropped about 5 places in the World rankings instead of just 2.

I would also like to add that I feel that D/V also got a raw deal at the 2001 Worlds. I feel they should have been the bronze medallists there as well, or at least 3rd in the free. (Tho I will say, having seen Lobacheva & Averbukh's bronze-winning free on TV a couple of weeks later, having been at this event in person, that L/A actually had a much better free than I gave them credit for). However, the controversy in the building at the time was that Bourne & Kraatz should have been the bronze medallists, (there was even talk of having some type of "fan protest" of the judging), and much as I loved Shae-Lynn & Vic, I just couldn't agree with that.

 

[Antilles]

Joe, IIRC the specific protest at SLC about D&V was that they were placed below two teams with falls in the FD. I don't recall any metion of the CDs or OD (even though FP&M had a rather obvious error in the OD).

JonnyCoop, I think people being upset in 2001 over B&K can be entirely attributed to the event being held in Canada. I was certainly annoyed that there was no real movement during the event, but IMO, B&K did not deserve higher than fourth, and fifth would have suited me fine. There were times they were genuinely undermarked, but this was not one of them. March With Me wasn't their best program, and one set of twizzles was noticeably out of unison. D&V had a better FD, and L&A put together the only program of theirs that I ever liked.

 

[Jasper]

Thank you everyone for your responses! :bounce:

 

[nuge]

Muffin your posts are

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think Americans learned several years ago, that the results of Dance competitions should be taken with a grain of salt.

The flailing arms and hands are contrived to show a passion which they really don't feel but know how to fake. Falls are judged differently depending on which Team is making the blunder.

Year after year the FD competition has become more Pairs than Dance. The winning teams have all looked alike year after year and I think the top Dance team and the top Pairs team this year are interchangeable. Same expressions; same technique, same choreography; same overall look.

Variations on hydroblading will be the only innovations to come out of this Dance discipline. The main difference between the Pairs and Dance is, of course, the lifts above the shoulder.

IMHO, I am not interested in the Dance competition at all. There is nothing new in this discipline. The same calculating approach to Dance will continue.

Joe

 

[JonnyCoop]

JonnyCoop, I think people being upset in 2001 over B&K can be entirely attributed to the event being held in Canada. I was certainly annoyed that there was no real movement during the event, but IMO, B&K did not deserve higher than fourth, and fifth would have suited me fine. There were times they were genuinely undermarked, but this was not one of them. March With Me wasn't their best program, and one set of twizzles was noticeably out of unison. D&V had a better FD, and L&A put together the only program of theirs that I ever liked.

Oh, I completely agree. And I would have said something at the time, only there was no way I was going to let my TRUE opinion about the whole B/K outcry known on THAT side of the border..... Actually, I seem to recall that the British judge placed B/K 6th in the free and I actually agreed with that; I felt that Chait/Sakhnovsky were better, too. I didn't like the March With Me dance at all; in addition to what you mentioned, I felt the lifts were rather low level as well compared to what others were presenting. Tho I will admit that my dislike of the dance had a lot to do with the fact that I personally found the music so unbeleivably annoying that it almost drove me right out of the building.

 

[slutskayafan21]

I think they will be in tough. Right now Navka/Kostmarov, Belbin/
Agosto, Grushina/Goncharov, Dubrueil/Lauzon, and Chait/Shaknovsky, look like the serious podium challengers. Denkova/Stayvinski could be contenders if they get their programs together by Turin, but they have a long ways to go in only a few months based on their NHK performances. Delobel/Schoenfelder peak later in the year, but even last year when many believed they had the best free dance performances in the World, they were ROBBED ROBBED ROBBED by the judges at both Europeans and Worlds, so it is hard to see them ever doing enough to make the judges take them seriously.

I see both of these teams somewhere in the 6-8 range in Turin. Drobiazko
/Vanagas could not beat Belbin/Agosto in their earlier meeting this year, when Belbin/Agosto had an enormous fall and delay in their performance due to the fall in their free dance. Dancers imparticular are not able to keep up their skills with the higher profile tours and competitons in the U.S, as Torvil/Dean were able to when they made their comeback in 1994. I just dont see them fitting into anywhere near were they once were, even with a complete turnover of the top teams since they last competed.

 

[JonnyCoop]

Delobel/Schoenfelder peak later in the year, but even last year when many believed they had the best free dance performances in the World, they were ROBBED ROBBED ROBBED by the judges at both Europeans and Worlds, so it is hard to see them ever doing enough to make the judges take them seriously.

I seriously think one of the reasons why Del/Sch aren't more serious medal contenders than they are (and as many feel they should be) really has to do with some SLC fallout. I find it extremely interesting that the French were able to field so many successful dance couples prior to SLC, but once the scandal broke and it was revealed that Gilhaguet was in it up to his neck, it rather cast a shadow on many of the great French results of the '90s -- so therefore the judges are now afraid to elevate another French dance couple to the top for fear that the result might be looked upon with suspicion. I am among the many who thought that D/S were going to make a big move after the '02 Olys, only the move they have made is not nearly as big a one as I expected.

Bear in mind, this is just a theory. Another theory is -- they're very popular with audiences, and Dance judges have always seemed to work under the impression that if the audience likes them, there's gotta be something wrong with them.....

 

[slutskayafan21]

I seriously think one of the reasons why Del/Sch aren't more serious medal contenders than they are (and as many feel they should be) really has to do with some SLC fallout. I find it extremely interesting that the French were able to field so many successful dance couples prior to SLC, but once the scandal broke and it was revealed that Gilhaguet was in it up to his neck, it rather cast a shadow on many of the great French results of the '90s -- so therefore the judges are now afraid to elevate another French dance couple to the top for fear that the result might be looked upon with suspicion. I am among the many who thought that D/S were going to make a big move after the '02 Olys, only the move they have made is not nearly as big a one as I expected.

Bear in mind, this is just a theory. Another theory is -- they're very popular with audiences, and Dance judges have always seemed to work under the impression that if the audience likes them, there's gotta be something wrong with them.....

I see your point but I dont feel any of the past French skaters were unfairly elevated due to the French politiking personally. Anissina/Peizerat are an excellent dance team and earned every medal they won, except maybe their placings over Bourne/Kraatz at the 98 Olympics and Worlds. In 1999 many thought they deserved to win the GP final, Europeans, and Worlds, ahead of Krylova/Ovsiannikov and they lost all 3 events by one judge; they certainly deserved atleast silver at each event that year. In 2000 they were the clear cut winners at the GP final, Europeans, and Worlds. In 2001 they deservedly lost the Europeans to the Italians, and were rightly placed only 3rd in the free dance when they fell(probably should have been 4th in the free, but still would have been 2nd overall, since they won 1 of the compulsories); and many felt they should have won Worlds instead of the Italians when they controversialy lost the gold on a split vote to the Italians. In 2002 they narrowly lost the GP final when Bourne/Kraatz had an inspired final free dance, and the French were slightly off in the final free dance, despite dominating the first two dances of the event, they rightly won Europeans, and they should have won the Olympic Gold more decisively than they did since they were the obvious winners.

Bonaly deserved her 3 World medals, and all 3 were close decisions for gold she lost. She also deserved her 5 European golds, although the decisions vs Biaul in 93 and 94 were close, I dont remember there being a glaring controversy over either. She and Biaul had a great rivalry those few years and battled back and forth.

Candelero also deserved his 4 World/Olympic medals, in each event he was one of only 2 or 3 men to step up with a worthy effort.
He never won gold, nor did he deserve to, he got exactly what he warranted out of his career, no more, no less.

Moniotte/Lavanchy certainly deserved their silver at the 94 Worlds, they were simply sharper than Rahkammo/Kokko that week. At the 95 Worlds some felt Bourne/Kraatz should have taken the bronze over them, but that has more to do with Bourne/Kraatz being held below because they were still too new, than holding up Moniotte/Lavanchy. They came back strong to finish 4th at 97 Worlds, before fading with injuries to retirement in a weak final season in 98.

The Duchensays there seem to be many varying views off. Some thought they were ridiculously overated, others thought they were constantly deprived by judges of winning more big titles than they won, who wanted to protect the Russian dynasty. They are really the only ones one could argue seriously politics helped throughout their career, but as I said there seems to be two extremes of views on this team.

Abitol/Bernadis were outside contenders their final 6 years, 98-2003, only once skated well enough to win a World medal, a bronze in 2000, in a field with Sale/Pelletier skating disaesterously, and Berezhnaya/Sikharlidze not even there. They only once took even silver at Europeans, instead of the bronze they won most years. They won only 1 medal at the GP final, a sivler in 2000. I dont see how the French federation made a big push to unfairly prop them up either.

Gusmeroli never won another World medal after her surprise bronze in 97, nor did she deserve to, but if the work of the French federation was strongly at hand, you would have probably seen her given a bit of a push to the podium in years like 99 and 2000 when she was close.

 

[Antilles]

Slutskayafan, I agree that I don't see other French athletes being held up unfairly. I don't think A&P were held up in '98. Everyone raved about Riverdance, but many people seemed to fail to notice how awful an OD B&K had that year. There just wasn't enough difficulty. K&O and A&P had much better ODs, and even P&S should have been placed higher than B&K, IMO. A&P could probably complain about being held down in '96, when B&K won their first World medal (at home in Canada). A&P appeared to have the more difficult FD that year.

Judges may however be worried about the appearance of French teams doing well. I think D&S will be more rewarded in seasons to come, when a few teams have retired.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Slutskayafan, I agree that I don't see other French athletes being held up unfairly. I don't think A&P were held up in '98. Everyone raved about Riverdance, but many people seemed to fail to notice how awful an OD B&K had that year. There just wasn't enough difficulty. K&O and A&P had much better ODs, and even P&S should have been placed higher than B&K, IMO. A&P could probably complain about being held down in '96, when B&K won their first World medal (at home in Canada). A&P appeared to have the more difficult FD that year.

Judges may however be worried about the appearance of French teams doing well. I think D&S will be more rewarded in seasons to come, when a few teams have retired.

I agree with pretty much all you said. Anissina/Peizerat probably would not have won bronze in 98 without the deal making of the French federation, but that is mainly because the status quo would have ensured Bourne/Kraatz 3rd, and Anissina/Peizerat 4th anyway. A deal is needed to shake up the status quo, and that is what happened. Just based on actual performances, Bourne/
Kraatz actually changed an original dance with much greater difficulty, that they were starting to master by January, after being ragged earlier in the year, to a much easier original dance, with the excuse they were struggling with the old one which was actually getting on track by January after alot of work over those few months. It made no sense to me, and was a bad decision. Also in the first compulsory dance they did the lunge incorrectly and repeated it all three times, not knowing what they were doing wrong. So while without the deal making they would have won the bronze over the French, there are still valid reasons why 4th was a fair overall result for them.

I also agree about the 96 Worlds. Bourne/Kraatz made noticeable improvements to their original and free dances, adding far more content than they had at the GP final, but still was not enough to beat Anissina/Peizerat IMHO. Had the event been elsewhere the result between the two probably would have switched.

It is unfortuante when the French make their deals they are so bad at it, it seems to be exploited to everybody. Didier "idiot" Gaigerhuet even bragged to the North American media about his 98 deal. To pull of his 2002 deal to help Anissina/Peizerat supposably, he selects an emotionaly frail women with a history of emotional breakdowns for the job. Also Anissina/Peizerat were good enough to win on their own merit, even though they had won only 1 World title, they had the best overall record, and were the team most consistently challenging for gold of any of the top teams in the 99-2002 quadrennail. They also were never likely to get the help the Russians promised them, they really didnt get it, the judges even tried to push the Russians over the French in the end, despite clearly inferior performances to the French in every phase of the competition, and 1 or 2 probably backed out at the last minute being fearful of the controversy, since despite all the broohah over the French dealmaking, everybody knew Anissina/Peizerat were head and shoulders a better team than Lobacheva/Averbuhk. Still the lingering effects of the very few deals they got involved in, so poorly planned and executed on their part, unlike the smooth operation of the Russian dealmaking, has cast a shadow on them to this day, and probably hurts a fine team like Delobel/Schoenfeldner. It is very sad.

 

[Jasper]

I think Americans learned several years ago, that the results of Dance competitions should be taken with a grain of salt.

The flailing arms and hands are contrived to show a passion which they really don't feel but know how to fake. Falls are judged differently depending on which Team is making the blunder.

Year after year the FD competition has become more Pairs than Dance. The winning teams have all looked alike year after year and I think the top Dance team and the top Pairs team this year are interchangeable. Same expressions; same technique, same choreography; same overall look.

Variations on hydroblading will be the only innovations to come out of this Dance discipline. The main difference between the Pairs and Dance is, of course, the lifts above the shoulder.

IMHO, I am not interested in the Dance competition at all. There is nothing new in this discipline. The same calculating approach to Dance will continue.

Joe

I, like most here, am constantly confused with and disappointed by Dance judging. It's frustating because I find teams like the French D/S and the Bulgarians D/S to be so innovative and interesting, and yet their performances never get marks comparable to N/K's anymore. Commentators point out that their skating is not always as polished, but the differences seem rather small to me and the lifts/moves they perform almost always are more unique and difficult than those of N/K...