Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[Mathman]

I'm looking at you, NFL and NBA.

The analogy with NBA and NFL rules is an interesting one. The original justification for eligibility rules in these sports were couched in terms of education. The powers-that-were did not want professional football and basketball players to be regarded as a bunch iof ignorant yahoos, like baseball and hockey players were. In baseball and hockey you could go right from high school (or even drop out) and take up an athletic career. The rule in basketball was that you had to attend and graduate from college first, so that you would be ofsome value to society instead of just some dumb jpock. Then the rule was weakend to, "you don't have to graduate from college, but you can't turn pro until after the graduation date of your college class." (Wilt Chamberlain dropped out of the Unibersity of Kansas in his junior year, but had to wait a year before he could sign up with an NBA team. He spent that waiting year with the Harlem Globetrotters.)

Then they changed the rules to allow "hardship cases" -- kids whose families were so poor that they were not destined to amount to anything anyway -- to play professionally right out of high school. LeBron James and Kobe Bryant werte notable examples (although in Bryant's case he was far from poor.)

In football, we saw the opposite trend. College football became such a money-maker for universities that the rules were constantly being contorted to allow "student-athletes" to stay in college for an extra year or so before they are pushed out into the pros.

Anyway, the sports world in general -- including figure skating -- is not overly exercised about the risks of physical, emotional and social development problems when children are pushed into the (scary) world of adults. Cewrtainly eduaction has fallen from the mix, what with "sports schools," home schooling, and the like.

 

[moonvine]

Question for you: your post indicates that your problem is that first year seniors come in win and bounce:
- would that not be a problem for you if a 17 year old first year senior came in and won all or most of the available titles for that season and bounced?

And if its not - why? And if it is a problem - then it sounds like you are a proponent of some type of odd sport that should be removed from the Olympics where a skater is only capable of winning a 'big title' after they have spent a certain number of years competing as a senior internationally.

You talk about Tuktamushava, Wakabi Haguchi, Bradie Tennell and Karen Chen being in the sport for years ---with the exception of Tuktamysheva none of the others have won a world title, GPF title (or even a medal) and including Tuktamysheva none of them have won an individual olympic medal. What indication is there that they would have continued had they achieved some or all of those medals/titles by now?

What are you even talking about? Wakaba has a World Silver Medal, and if I count them right 5 GP medals. Bradie has 3 GP medals and an Olympic Bronze Medal.
Karen Chen has been less successful as a Senior but really pulled the US out of the fire a couple of times. And Tuktamushava has won absolutely everything except an Olympic gold medal.

The Olympic Gold Medal is not everything, nor is it the only thing. Often it doesn’t go to the best skater overall. It has often gone to a skater who had the skate of their life when others faltered.

As far as first year seniors I typically don’t pay a lot of attention to them unless they happen to be a US lady I have been following through juniors or something.

 

[moonvine]

Honestly it all goes back to fixing the scoring system, which the powers that be seem uninterested in doing right now.

 

[Amei]

What are you even talking about? Wakaba has a World Silver Medal, and if I count them right 5 GP medals. Bradie has 3 GP medals and an Olympic Bronze Medal.

a) I said title, at least to me, the 'title' is the first place finisher that's who holds the title of World Champion, Grand Prix Final Champion.
b) I said GPF, which is the Grand Prix Final, of which Wakaba and Bradie do not have even a medal from that competition, and Karen has never even been to
c) I said individual Olympic medal, the team medal while still an achievement isn't the crowning moment I think for most skaters like an individual medal where its only their performance that wins them the medal - yes in some cases another skater may have to falter for them to win but they as an individual still have to do their job and either not mess up or mess up less than others in order to win. Which even if you want to account for that then you still have Wakaba, Tuktamysheva and Karen being without an Olympic medal

And Tuktamushava has won absolutely everything except an Olympic gold medal.

The Olympic Gold Medal is not everything, nor is it the only thing. Often it doesn’t go to the best skater overall. It has often gone to a skater who had the skate of their life when others faltered.

I didn't say the Olympic gold medal was the absolute be all end all. The OP is talking about longevity and disliking the 15 year olds that swoop in and win everything in 1 season then disappear and specifically called out Tuktamysheva, Wakaba, Bradie and Karen as skaters that have spent years in the sport and it being unfair that the 15 year olds snatch the medals from them. My point was that those 4 skaters still have those typical achievements that skaters want to win left to achieve and had they achieved those titles then can we really say for certain they would still be competing in which case then medals aren't being snatched from them by 15 year olds.

Below are a couple of quotes from interviews that Tutkamysheva has done (with links to the interviews) reading these, my takeaway is if Tuktamysheva had went to the Olympics in 2014 or 2018, she wouldn't be competing right now (she pretty much says that in the first interview).

If you had a time machine, would you change something?

Elizaveta: I wouldn’t change anything. The fact that I did not get to the Olympics in Sochi helped me to make a career. If I went and failed, for example, then I could not cope with it. If there was a triumph, I could end my career, because it is difficult to survive large-scale success.

https://fs-gossips.com/elizaveta-tu...olympics-in-sochi-helped-me-to-make-a-career/

Tuktamysheva’s triumphant finish to the 2020-2021 season puts her in unexpectedly good stead to at last compete in an Olympic Games, having fallen short of the team in both 2014 and 2018. Looking to set her programs with famed coach Aleksei Mishin before taking a short vacation in the Maldives, she aims to do all she can to earn the only crown still missing from her collection.

“I’ve had a lot of great moments, and I’ve had a long career,” she said. “An opportunity to finally make it to the Olympics would be the cherry on the cake. In my wildest dreams, I see myself winning bronze, silver, gold, standing on that Olympic podium. It’s going to be so hard getting there, and I don’t want it to be my main goal for next season, but it would mean so much to me and for my career to be able to make it to the Olympics.

“I’ve already done almost 100% of what I can do, and this is all that’s left.”

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2021...amysheva-2022-winter-olympics-figure-skating/

 

[el henry]

The analogy with NBA and NFL rules is an interesting one. The original justification for eligibility rules in these sports were couched in terms of education. The powers-that-were did not want professional football and basketball players to be regarded as a bunch iof ignorant yahoos, like baseball and hockey players were. In baseball and hockey you could go right from high school (or even drop out) and take up an athletic career. The rule in basketball was that you had to attend and graduate from college first, so that you would be ofsome value to society instead of just some dumb jpock. Then the rule was weakend to, "you don't have to graduate from college, but you can't turn pro until after the graduation date of your college class." (Wilt Chamberlain dropped out of the Unibersity of Kansas in his junior year, but had to wait a year before he could sign up with an NBA team. He spent that waiting year with the Harlem Globetrotters.)

Then they changed the rules to allow "hardship cases" -- kids who's families were so poor that they were not destined to amount to anything anyway -- to play professionally right out of high school. LeBron James and Kobe Bryant werte notable examples (although in Bryant's case he was far from poor.)

In football, we saw the opposite trend. College football became such a money-maker for universities that the rules were constantly being contorted to allow "student-athletes" to stay in college for extra year or so before they are pushed out into the pros.

Anyway, the sports world in general -- including figure skating -- is not overly exercised about the risks of physical, emotional and social development problems when children are pushed into the (scary) world of adults. Cewrtainly eduaction has fallen from the mix, what with "sports schools," home schooling, and the like.

You are right, the original intent of the rule was to funnel more athletes into the college sports system. Wilt the Stilt and the Globetrotters being a prime example of how that did or did not work out. . Talk about the health of young athletes is sadly, usually that, just talk.

But the rule remains, even for the hardship cases who have no intention of pursuing a college degree. Is it tied to the perceived necessity for a high school education? Kobe Bryant never went to college. He could easily have played pro ball at 16 or 17. Did the rule rob him the ability to prove he was the best? Did the rule stop him from making even more money? Fame and fortune earlier?

And if the likes of Kobe Bryant can be prevented from joining the NBA, thus depriving us of seeing "the best", why are figure skaters any different?

 

[readernick]

I don't see why 17 is the ideal age? I think there is an argument to be made that skaters shouldn't be allowed to compete until 18. The physical risk of competition are real ( especially in pairs skating but also in singles) and , perhaps, an athlete should have to be 18 before being allowed to accept that risk. But, even if the athletes aren't competing at the Senior level , they are still at risk for injury. How do you properly protect minors in a sport which requires an athlete to begin practice at a very young age in order to be competitive? There is no perfect answer to these questions imho.

About not liking the current results, that could be better addressed through refining the judging system and having better PCS judging. Separate panels judging TES and PCS might result in more variation between TES/ PCS scores. Some skaters really deserve extremely high TES, but low PCS and the reverse is also true. Also, some skaters have wonderful SS but aren't very musical. The reserve is true for others. We almost never see this type of variation in scores.

 

[anonymoose_au]

It’s like when Alysa won her first National Championship and Mirai said it was good she could do a triple axel, but that she skated like a Junior.

I notice this comes up a lot...what does "skating like a junior" mean? Because from what I gather it seems it means that anything fun and not SRS BSNS is discouraged. Like everyone has to skate to classical music or a ballad in a floaty "Oh I'm such an artiste" kind of way. The stereotypical "Ice Princess" thing.

Obviously there's skaters who love that sort of music, but where's the variety if every skater feels like they have to skate in one particular way? I enjoy lots of junior programs, quite a few are better put together than senior ones.

Or is it purely about technique? Although that still can't be judged just on age.

 

[withwings]

IMHO is not about age or not age limits. To blame the age would be like to blame a stone for hitting someone, without seeing or recognizing the hand who throws that stone.

 

[rain]

I would like Women’s skating to be the skating of women, not young girls. If the scoring system were set up better this would not be an issue.

Yup. 100% behind raising the age limit to where they cannot be artificially kept in tiny prepubescent bodies for one season and then disappear because the technique is unsustainable for a mature body.

 

[MUALover]

lol just because the Russian girls are winning, some people want to raise the age limit.

 

[yume]

I think my comment has been misinterpreted. I did not mean anything negative or positive about any body type.

When I say “skaters that skate like women” I mean things like skating skills, musical interpretation, etc. Some commentator used to call it “the in betweens.” The stuff that is beautiful to me. Not just jumping.

It’s like when Alysa won her first National Championship and Mirai said it was good she could do a triple axel, but that she skated like a Junior. It’s figure skating. Not skate jumping.

But nothing to do with the shape/size of any skater. I don’t do that.

I didn't misinterpret your comment, because i wasn't talking about your comment. I said "among reasons that people give" because this isn't the first thread about age limit and there are far many posts all over this forum talking about the topic. And i've seen some posts saying things like "i want to see skaters who look like women, not children. 18yo would be a good age".

 

[withwings]

lol just because the Russian girls are winning, some people want to raise the age limit.

No, dear, not at all. There is nothing against Russia. And never has been. I am more than sure that each and everyone who is truly involved in figure skating deeply respect all the wonderful tradition Russia brings to the figure skating. It is not about Russia. It is about the figure skating. And concerns stems out of love for this divine sport. Figure skating, though it is just my personal opinion, is on the threshold to be destroyed (?), to be turned to something else oh, I cannot find the right word how to express what I want to say... maybe the best way to say is that the soul of figure skating suddenly has become unimportant

A bold disrespect towards undeveloped bodies is unforgivable and the fruit of it sooner or later will manifest itself.

 

[CoyoteChris]

It would if one believes that only jumping is important, and that skates with the fanciest tricks are the best skaters.

The last World Championships were a mess, with wobbly spins and falls winning over clean skaters because of jump difficulty. It was even suggested that “minor” elements like spins be left out. And certainly don’t bother working on step sequences, they are worth pretty close to nothing. Honestly I’ve just about lost interest in women’s skating completely.

Maybe there should be a sport called skate jumping. But for me, skating has come down to enjoying the skaters I like for their artistry and technical ability, and even the people they are...not just watching trick shooting. I never enjoyed watching Tara L. She was a small child who skated like a small child. And a trick shooter. I think Dick Button was right. A fall is a fall, not a partially competed jump. Zero points minus one.
There should be a bump for a clean program. I am not a basket ball fan but it would appear to me that sport now only is for tall people with long arms. Do we want women's figure skating to be only for small 15 year old girls with slight builds? Today, Johnny Weir told US Ladies figure skaters to up their game and everyone do 3As and quads just like the Russians. Tara didn't say anything, but she did remark that Mariah had to work on the Triple triple. Fair enough. I would rather watch artistry than injury.

 

[Arbitrary]

... and move the Olympics to 2023. Let Trusova to recover.

 

[nussnacker]

• the 'loss of tricks' is a losing argument, both Trusova and Shcherbakova ARE 17 and both still have their difficult elements, both of whom will be closer to 18 than 17 if they make the team for Beijing

I think the 'raise the age limit' argument can really be boiled down for a lot of fans to: my favorite skater is 18-25 and being beaten by a 15-17 year old that's technically more skilled than my favorite skater, this problem should be solved by removing the 15-17 year old from being her competition

Don’t worry. Once Sasha and Anna are 18, it will become “raise the age to 19, why are these tiny 15-18 year old kids stealing medals”. It will continue at this rate until they retire.

 

[nussnacker]

When I say “skaters that skate like women” I mean things like skating skills, musical interpretation, etc. Some commentator used to call it “the in betweens.” The stuff that is beautiful to me. Not just jumping.

Yes, except in the most recent competition Kamila at 15 had better SS and musical interpretation than Liza at 25, no shade intended. It’s a stereotype that SS and interpretation only come with age. In reality, some never even intend to develop SS or include better transitions or do a program that requires complex interpretation, or just aren’t capable. Some, on contrary, posses artistic talent at a very young age.

Liza survived up until 25 only because of 2 reasons: motivation of never making it to Olympics and being a “jumping bean”. Jumping is her only strong side, not SS or spins or interpretation. Quite frankly, she demonstrates exactly the opposite of what people assume: you can survive in a sport for a long time as long as you have your jumps in order.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Liza survived up until 25 only because of 2 reasons

And a third - she has a supportive coach who was willing to work hard and stood by her when things were difficult. Liza has credited Mishin with keeping her in the sport as well.

Yes, except in the most recent competition Kamila at 15 had better SS and musical interpretation than Liza at 25,

I'll give you the first part but not the second, Liza totally lived and breathed her music. Some may think it's tacky and cheap, but it is what it is and Liza showed it. Kamila also interpreted her music, but it wasn't light years ahead of Liza in that department.

Apart from her jumps Liza's strength is also in her performance, her ability to capture the audience. She's hardly a one-trick pony herself.

 

[ScattyKatty]

But if you look at the build of Kamila for example - she’s significantly taller than a fair few ‘adult’ skaters and is also more ‘developed’. If you look at Anna at 15 v’s Kamila there is no comparison. So why should someone like KV who has physically matured be allowed to skate senior when she no longer has the pre pubescent advantage?

 

[Dawn825]

First and foremost FS needs to do more to address the rampant abuse and exploitation of children in the sport. I cannot enjoy watching these kids skate while wondering how depressed and unhealthy they are behind the scenes. This is not just about Russia or just about ladies, I really struggle to watch the pairs too. Young athletes, especially females, are treated like crap in our sport, and coaches have free rein to starve them, humiliate them and worse to get the results they want. Raising the age limit would not be a solution to the problem by any means, but in the interim I completely support it.

 

[rugbyfan]

My interest is in keeping anyone in the sport at senior level for a full Olympic cycle. I realise that I am not a fan on the level that many people here are fans but figure skating is my escape from an overly-busy life. I can't remember the last time I watched a TV series for instance, but I do try to keep up with figure skating. In picking and choosing, however, I focus on the seniors. I genuinely do not have time to watch the juniors. Everybody here seems to have been talking about Kamila for ages, for example. I saw her for the first time when she entered seniors (and I do think she is a remarkable skater at the moment). Juniors and seniors seem to have become blended and I think many fans don't resent the turnover in quite the same way because they have been watching skaters all through juniors so when they are at the top for a season and then gone they don't mind so much. On one level this may not matter, but on another level I do not think it is a way to win more casual viewers for the sport. One of the reasons I liked Medvedeva was that I actually got to see her at the top for a little. Meant that I was cheering her over Zagitova if for no other reason than I knew her.


In addition to these matters I do like skating skills and presentation, and I do not think we either train them enough or reward them enough. Some of these become better with age but we are rarely getting the chance to see this. I saw Michelle live in 1996 and she was definitely good, but had not come into her own the way she did later. I never liked Tara Lipinski's skating. Kostner came into her own, but she didn't wow me when she was first on the scene. I can't say that I have ever been the biggest women's skater fan, but I have been reviewing some favourites from the last thirty years and I definitely miss some of the "artistic" side of skating and think that even if we don't change the age level we need to move away from such a single minded focus on revolutions in the air. I can get bored by just jumps - especially when they aren't landed well. Skating is a whole package sport. The current judging and rewards which is focussed on skills that are better young to me is problematic.

Lastly and most importantly, and I know some on this forum dismiss this utterly saying an Olympic gold is worth the price, I am concerned about the toll on young figure skater's bodies. I have seen a LOT of talk about this both berating and dismissing it, but I would love to be directed to some studies on it. At the moment it really concerns me but I don't really know enough. People have said if you change the age limit, skaters will still do the jumps etc in juniors, but if there are really genuine problems from this than it is possible to legislate what can be done in juniors. Also if the goal is to stay in long enough to get the Olympic medal (which is what most are working for) than it may not be worth the risk to the body in juniors.