Raise The Senior Ladies Age To 17 Please!

[Jontor]

That the sport is evolving around jumps is understandable as they are the most difficult elements. That is the one thing you can improve to have the edge against your opponents.

And it has always been about the jumps. I re-watched some old 90s skates and I think it was when Yamaguchi won in 92, the American commentator said "it's all about the jumps". Check it out on YouTube!

That the Russian girls are pushing the jump content is also understandable. The sport is HUGE in Russia. Watching the junior Russian Cup you see that almost all girls have the same tech. And because there is so many of them you need something extra to stand out, thus the more difficult jumps.

It sounds to me that most of the raise-the-age advocats are Americans who miss their stars from the 90s and before.

Raising the age to 16 or 17 will do nothing. We would have a lot of 17 year olds that come into their first senior year sweeping up all the medals.

For women, the usual age when their tech starts to deteriorate is usually around 18 because of body changes. If they hang on, they can regain it. Tuktamysheva is a good example of that, and due to more fierce competition in Russia, she has also managed to increase her difficulty.

 

[jenaj]

This is patently untrue. If they are artistic, they are artistic. Plenty of 20+ skaters are criticized for lack of artistry. Uno would outperform anyone any time in his career. And, well, pretty much each and everyone of those teenage women (particularly those who left), is lauded for artistry, musicality and all that. The only exception is Trusova, but she hasn’t left yet.

Artistry tends to develop over time. But you are right, it has to be there first. It's just that what is seen at 15 could become much better after the skater is no longer a child. Examples would be Carolina Kostner, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Kristi Yamaguchi (though she developed more as a pro). Or maybe the issue is mature artistry. In any event, the current system doesn't reward artistry very much so maybe artistry at 15 is good enough.

 

[lariko]

Artistry tends to develop over time. But you are right, it has to be there first. It's just that what is seen at 15 could become much better after the skater is no longer a child. Examples would be Carolina Kostner, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Kristi Yamaguchi (though she developed more as a pro). Or maybe the issue is mature artistry. In any event, the current system doesn't reward artistry very much so maybe artistry at 15 is good enough.

Current system rewards artistry. In this GP time and again more artistic programs won over the more technically complex and even cleaner ones. Apart from Kagiyama, Semeneko and Trusova, not a single non-artistic skater medaled. And Trusova’s programs this year are an absolute blast, even though they are not the slow glide type.

Plus, there are a great many women over 20 in the figure skating competing, so it they all bring in whatever brand of artistry anyone could wish for. It’s not like all of them are 16…

 

[jenaj]

Current system rewards artistry. In this GP time and again more artistic programs won over the more technically complex and even cleaner ones. Apart from Kagiyama, Semeneko and Trusova, not a single non-artistic skater medaled. And Trusova’s programs this year are an absolute blast, even though they are not the slow glide type.

Plus, there are a great many women over 20 in the figure skating competing, so it they all bring in whatever brand of artistry anyone could wish for. It’s not like all of them are 16…

There is no mark for artistry in the PCS. And some truly artistic skaters, like Satoko Miyahara, are stuck in the high 8's.

 

[SNAKSuyun]

Current system rewards artistry. In this GP time and again more artistic programs won over the more technically complex and even cleaner ones. Apart from Kagiyama, Semeneko and Trusova, not a single non-artistic skater medaled. And Trusova’s programs this year are an absolute blast, even though they are not the slow glide type.

Plus, there are a great many women over 20 in the figure skating competing, so it they all bring in whatever brand of artistry anyone could wish for. It’s not like all of them are 16…

Current system awards "enough" artistry. As long as you're not obviously horrendous with artistry, you'll get far more PCS than even the top artists in the field. You get far more being a top jumper with "ok" artistry than being a top artist with "ok" jumps. And we're not even going to talk about cases where people's scores are not affected at all by the quality of the program they are skating to, or how invested / whole their performance felt on the day of. Everyone knows as long as you've been keeping up with regular dance and choreo lessons during your training, your scores and career will be fine.

 

[SNAKSuyun]

I do think there's more resistance in FS to think of FS entirely as a sport because a lot of us are here because of the emotional/musical/dance interpretation or following a particular skater's journey (I don't really care if Mai Mihara isn't going to learn more jumps or move up the rankings year after year, I just want to see her keep skating and enjoying the sport). Even in artistic gymnastics, where graceful gymnasts are still exceedingly popular and often rewarded for their lines and style (Nastia Liukin and Aliya Mustafina come to mind), everyone knows they're watching/following the sport for the tumbles, the flips, and the difficult tricks. A lot of FS fans, however, fell in love with the sport after watching galas/EX/shows etc that featured a lot of emotion and very little or less spectacular jump content, so there'll be push back if the actual competitive sport decides it'll emphasize min-maxing jumps over the other aspects of the sport.

 

[lariko]

There is no mark for artistry in the PCS. And some truly artistic skaters, like Satoko Miyahara, are stuck in the high 8's.

PCS has two categories rewarding artistry vs 3 that award abilities not included in TES.

I saw her in Skate America this year, and didn’t find her particularly artistic. She is not engaging to watch, even live. I know she is supposedly very good, but I wasn’t impressed at all. She is bland and too indistinctive. Maybe she is the case of losing artistry with age and living on reputation. Sinitsina who is young was mesmerizing at the same event, just enchanting. Sakomoto was a living wire. As far as I am concerned, Myahara is not stuck, she is over-rewarded for what she shows.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

There is no mark for artistry in the PCS. And some truly artistic skaters, like Satoko Miyahara, are stuck in the high 8's.

There is no specific 'artistic score' in a new judging system, like there is no specific technical one, except in a Base Value of an element. Some 'artistic' criteria are part of PCS, some are part of TES. When she was skating clean, Satoko got many times 9+ for her PE and IN especially. But 'being artistic' is not equal with higher component score. Also, with a clean skate, judges tend to reward her with all artistic criteria which are part of TES, or GOE specifically. That's why her jumps are many times judged with +3 GOE, even there is no demonstration of good jumping ability behind them. In spins and steps particularly, she was always rewarded with very high GOE, even there is no the highest 'technical achievement' (in terms of the best flexibility or speed) behind them etc etc Satoko was/is always rewarded for her 'artistic' ability, just there is no any specific score in the system to show that, but you can see influences of her artistry in all of the marks judges need to give separately.

 

[lariko]

You get far more being a top jumper with "ok" artistry than being a top artist with "ok" jumps. And

Nope. Otherwise Cha wouldn’t have won over Ignatov, and Brown wouldn’t be in the top tier vs Samarin or Aliev being right at average, because Brown jumps about as good as Ignatov performs. There is currently only one outstanding jumper with a distinctive lack of artistry per discipline, Kagiyama and Trusova. Every other outstanding jumper is more than decent in hitting the music and performance. And Kagiyama is a special case, because I suspect there is urgency/push to put as many medals on him as possible before they announce Hanyu’s retirement.

 

[alexocfp]

Actually a very good point. There are a lot of videos of Kamilla/Anna/Sasha/... surrounded by a very young kids, so they can take a photo or just touch their idol. Unfortunately, I do not see the same with Tuktik, and just because she is an adult.

Younger idols are easier for children and this is very important.

Glad you agree. I don’t want to argue with someone named Draculus. Haha

 

[yume]

I mean Brown is in GPF and has beaten people with harder layouts while himself has rotation issue with 3A and quads (even if TP give him some gifts).
Kostner was winning medals thanks to PCS as big as Jupiter, even if she was a zamboni during the program.
How artistry isn't rewarded?

 

[alexocfp]

Link please. . I have seen absolutely no evidence that younger athletes bring in younger fans, controlled for variables of country, sport, etc.

Also, age of majority in Eastern hemisphere countries: Japan: 18. South Korea: 20. (ETA: according to Google, I have no actual knowledge.)

In Western Hemisphere places like Moscow, (since some of Russia is in the Eastern Hemisphere), other places in Europe. North America, South America, it varies.

"Western" as a political construct is meaningless for me, because it is so variable and not agreed upon, so I use the actual geography for standards in the East and the West.

The average age of a skating fan is between baseball and the nfl.

However more than half of all members of us figure skating are 18 and under.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/FactSheet.pdf

This is a young persons game.

Also, I did much more work than I should have finding a link. You know I don’t like doing extra work. Haha

 

[Anna K.]

Actually a very good point. There are a lot of videos of Kamilla/Anna/Sasha/... surrounded by a very young kids, so they can take a photo or just touch their idol. Unfortunately, I do not see the same with Tuktik, and just because she is an adult.

Younger idols are easier for children and this is very important.

Talking about which, recently in Rostelecom cup I noticed a group of young girls (not children) holding a huge poster in Russian that said "Lisa, you are our idol!" when Tuk took to ice. Probably the 18-year-olds whom she inspires not to quit skating

 

[Tomadeur]

I think that's also an interesting point. In Germany you have to physically attend school at least 10 years full time, there's no way around it. But usually it's 12 years. By that time the skaters are 18 or 19 years old. So not everyone has the possibility to peak at 15 years, which seems to be the perfect age now. Of course it's not the fault of other countries that we have rules like that.

In Germany you have to attend school for at least 9 years. Most promising junior athletes drop out of school after 9 or 10 years and most are on special sport schools where it's easier to combine school and sport. But it's not like the russian (or other) Juniors don't go to school at this age so I don't really get the point. The biggest advantage Russia has is that more kids than in other countries are doing figure skating (even if there are more differences).

 

[jenaj]

There is no specific 'artistic score' in a new judging system, like there is no specific technical one, except in a Base Value of an element. Some 'artistic' criteria are part of PCS, some are part of TES. When she was skating clean, Satoko got many times 9+ for her PE and IN especially. But 'being artistic' is not equal with higher component score. Also, with a clean skate, judges tend to reward her with all artistic criteria which are part of TES, or GOE specifically. That's why her jumps are many times judged with +3 GOE, even there is no demonstration of good jumping ability behind them. In spins and steps particularly, she was always rewarded with very high GOE, even there is no the highest 'technical achievement' (in terms of the best flexibility or speed) behind them etc etc Satoko was/is always rewarded for her 'artistic' ability, just there is no any specific score in the system to show that, but you can see influences of her artistry in all of the marks judges need to give separately.

I disagree with your view that "artistic" criteria are part of TES. I know of no ISU document that says that. Her jumps should have nothing to do with her performance or interpretation. Things like under-rotations should not affect those scores (Satoko doesn't fall very much, so those are the only things that maybe are not "clean"). Her average scores for those components were in the 8's at her recent Grand Prix events.

 

[SNAKSuyun]

Nope. Otherwise Cha wouldn’t have won over Ignatov, and Brown wouldn’t be in the top tier vs Samarin or Aliev being right at average, because Brown jumps about as good as Ignatov performs. There is currently only one outstanding jumper with a distinctive lack of artistry per discipline, Kagiyama and Trusova. Every other outstanding jumper is more than decent in hitting the music and performance. And Kagiyama is a special case, because I suspect there is urgency/push to put as many medals on him as possible before they announce Hanyu’s retirement.

Brown really has not had much better international results compared to Samarin (it just seems that way because due to his popularity and the fact that his floor is slightly higher), and I would not point to Samarin, Ignatov and Aliev as particularly great jumpers when more often than not, they post comparable TES to Cha and Brown (see: Skate Canada, Internationaux de France). Can you really build a reputation for being a top jumper if you keep popping or falling on your big elements? My awkward Chinese boy Boyang (who I would no longer call a great jumper in his current state) definitely got much further than most 'artists' just a few years ago when his jumps were still around.

 

[el henry]

The average age of a skating fan is between baseball and the nfl.

However more than half of all members of us figure skating are 18 and under.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/FactSheet.pdf

This is a young persons game.

Also, I did much more work than I should have finding a link. You know I don’t like doing extra work. Haha

You and me both about not liking extra work

Of course it's a young person's "game". To me, Michal Brezina is young. My point is that this does not mean that the fans will be young just because the promoted participants are 15. The young folks I know aren't interested, and it has nothing to do with whether one promotes daring 15 year old quadsters or Uncles Brezina and Bychenko, they just aren't interested.

But that's back to the "me and all my friends" argument that I find unpersuasive, and I include my own friends in that. I would love to see real live randomized for variables studies. Sadly, I doubt that will happen.

 

[alexocfp]

You and me both about not liking extra work

Of course it's a young person's "game". To me, Michal Brezina is young. My point is that this does not mean that the fans will be young just because the promoted participants are 15. The young folks I know aren't interested, and it has nothing to do with whether one promotes daring 15 year old quadsters or Uncles Brezina and Bychenko, they just aren't interested.

But that's back to the "me and all my friends" argument that I find unpersuasive, and I include my own friends in that. I would love to see real live randomized for variables studies. Sadly, I doubt that will happen.

Well, you aren’t getting any randomized studies from me. I’m done for the year. Haha

I bet there is a higher percentage of viewers in Russia than the USA.

 

[lariko]

Brown really has not had much better international results compared to Samarin (it just seems that way because due to his popularity and the fact that his floor is slightly higher), and I would not point to Samarin, Ignatov and Aliev as particularly great jumpers when more often than not, they post comparable TES to Cha and Brown (see: Skate Canada, Internationaux de France). Can you really build a reputation for being a top jumper if you keep popping or falling on your big elements? My awkward Chinese boy Boyang (who I would no longer call a great jumper in his current state) definitely got much further than most 'artists' just a few years ago when his jumps were still around.

Things had changed since few years ago, that’s the point. Starting from year before last and last year, and going into this year, it is very obvious that influence of PCSs and GoE-as-PCS rose significantly. While they still do not consistently reward clean skates with lower technical base and the quad or two as a centrepiece (basically going back to pre-multiple quad programming) it is more and more obvious.

Obviously, the 5 skaters who can put 4 quads clean and perform (with 4/5 there being excellent performers anyway) will always win and will be the only ones in the world medal pool, but 5 to 20 is going to restack in favour of high PCS and 1-2 quads this season, if it goes the way it went in GP.

Cha won with 2 quads and a fall over Ignatov with 6 quads, no falls, no UR (there was one q). Brown is 6th, while a Samarin and Aliev are 18th and 20th in GP, so, yes, Brown significantly outperforms and only on artistry, because there is no jumping ability there to talk about.

 

[readernick]

That’s even handed at least. So, everyone may only compete in seniors after they are fully 18 years of age. What happens with the transition window from juniors to seniors? Does it get extended to 22 years of age to have the same 4 years grace period? Is minimum age for JGP raised to 16 as well, so basically former junior division is eliminated and current seniors will for the most part will be still junior-eligible. Or will you put a 13 yo in the same competition with a 21 yo?
[/SIZE]

Actually 13 year olds are already competing with 21 year olds. 21 year old men in ice dance and pairs are allowed. So, this wouldn't change anything.

As for the rest of your questions they are questions that would need to be considered but I don't know and , honestly, I don't care. Such questions seen unimportant to me compared to the overall safety and health of the athletes. Increasing the age for participation in juniors might encourage coaches to work more on the basic fundamentals of skating and also reduce the stress of repeated run throughs on young bodies.

Beyond that I don't think I have the answers to any questions. People who say simple answers will solve complex problems are usually lying. I'm just raising points that bother me as a viewer. I love figure skating but also worry about the kids involved in the sport. I posted earlier in the thread stating that I don't even know if raising the age limit would result in less abuse or injury. I just think more protections need to be put in place Worldwide.