Random Figure Skating Questions

[CaroLiza_fan]

A couple of weeks ago, both of the Gjersem girls were competing at ISU events at the same time - Anne Line at the Cup of China, and Camilla at the Volvo Open.

Camilla put on a great show in Riga, and at the time I commented that:

Anne-Line may be making Norways's debut in the Senior GP Series this weekend, but if Camilla keeps on performing like this, it may not be long until we see both of the twins in the GP Series!

That started me thinking. How many times have we had a set of twins competing in the same event?

Of course, the Gjersem twins have been dominating Norwegian Nationals for years. But, from what I can find on ISU Results, 2012 was the only year that they both competed. (It doesn't give any Junior results).

[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Anne-Line[/TD]
[TD]Camilla[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]Senior (1st)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]Senior (3rd)[/TD]
[TD]Senior (1st)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2013[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Senior (1st)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2014[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Senior (1st)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

If we move onto international competitions, the Gjersem girls both competed at The Nordics every year from 2009 to 2013. But, they were only in the same competition for 3 of those years:

[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Anne-Line[/TD]
[TD]Camilla[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2009[/TD]
[TD]Junior (3rd)[/TD]
[TD]Novice (6th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2010[/TD]
[TD]Junior (4th)[/TD]
[TD]Junior (12th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]Senior (4th)[/TD]
[TD]Junior (8th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]Senior (6th)[/TD]
[TD]Senior (7th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2013[/TD]
[TD]Senior (6th)[/TD]
[TD]Senior (5th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2014[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Senior (7th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Apart from this, these are the only international competitions that ISU Results say both of the Gjersem girls were competing in:

[TABLE="class: grid"]
[TR]
[TD]Competition[/TD]
[TD]Anne-Line
[/TD]
[TD]Camilla[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2009 Skate Celje[/TD]
[TD]Junior (1st)[/TD]
[TD]Junior (5th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2009 Warsaw Cup[/TD]
[TD]Junior (3rd)[/TD]
[TD]Junior (10th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2012 Gardena Spring Trophy[/TD]
[TD]Senior (7th)[/TD]
[TD]Senior (12th)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

(Please correct me if I missed any!)

What about the Gracie and Carly Gold? Have they ever competed against each other in the same competition? (I'm sure they have many times at local competitions, but what about USFS or ISU Sanctioned events?)

What about Piper and Alexe Gilles? Did they ever compete against each other in Singles competitions before Piper specialised in Ice Dance?

(Incidentally, in case you're wondering what she's up to nowadays, Alexe is currently playing "Elsa" in the Disney On Ice version of "Frozen").

Are there any other current figure skaters that have a twin that also skates competitively? Or, what about skaters from the past that I may not have realised had a twin that also skated?

It is something that it would be very interesting to know more about.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Icey]

Carly is competing at sectionals this week, so we should know soon if she is on the road to at least competing against Gracie at Nationals.

 

[bartlebooth]

Twin sisters Véronique and Isabelle Delobel were both Ice dancers and competed against each other at French Nationals, of course, and at 1999 Skate Canada, where Isabelle placed 3rd with her partner Olivier Schoenfelder, whilst Véronique placed 9th skating with another Olivier (Chapuis).

 

[BravesSkateFan]

A
Are there any other current figure skaters that have a twin that also skates competitively? Or, what about skaters from the past that I may not have realised had a twin that also skated?

It is something that it would be very interesting to know more about.

CaroLiza_fan

Not a current skater, but Alissa Czisny's twin Amber was a competitive skater, I'm sure her and Alissa probably competed against each other at some point. Here's some info on her if you're interested. http://dscclub.com/staff/amber-czisny-roy-2/


ETA: Here are some super cute twins skating to The Nutcracker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCH5MOfHS5A

 

[fleeting]

Alissa and Amber Czisny competed against each other early in Alissa's career. When Alissa placed 2nd at Nationals at the Junior level, Amber was 5th. Amber's only appearance at the national senior level was in 2003, where she placed 20th and Alissa 10th. Amber and Alissa competed at the 2004 Collegiate Championships, but I can't find any data for Amber past 2004. I think she might have dabbled in ice dance before becoming a teacher, if I remember correctly.

Anne-Line Gjersem is also a twin - her sister, Camilla, is also a skater. She placed 4th at the Volvo Open cup. http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00011701.htm
(I hope to see her someday represent Norway on the GP along with Anne-Line eventually )

 

[ice coverage]

... What about Piper and Alexe Gilles? Did they ever compete against each other in Singles competitions before Piper specialised in Ice Dance?

(Incidentally, in case you're wondering what she's up to nowadays, Alexe is currently playing "Elsa" in the Disney On Ice version of "Frozen").

Are there any other current figure skaters that have a twin that also skates competitively? Or, what about skaters from the past that I may not have realised had a twin that also skated?

It is something that it would be very interesting to know more about.

CaroLiza_fan

Believe it or not, Becky Bereswill -- who now also plays Elsa for the Disney on Ice production of Frozen -- has a twin Allison, who was a competitive figure skater as well.

... Anne-Line Gjersem is also a twin - her sister, Camilla, is also a skater. She placed 4th at the Volvo Open cup. http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00011701.htm
(I hope to see her someday represent Norway on the GP along with Anne-Line eventually )

Great minds: CL_fan started this conversation b/c of the Gjersems. He provided some detailed bkgd on them in post #1241 above.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Believe it or not, Becky Bereswill -- who now also plays Elsa for the Disney on Ice production of Frozen -- has a twin Allison, who was a competitive figure skater as well.

Now that is an amazing coincidence! Two skaters who are twins (but not with each other!) playing the same part!

Thank you for the info, Golden.

When you mentioned Becky, my first thought was "I recognise that name for some reason". So, I went onto her ISU Bio, and clicked through to her competition results. And the only competition listed that I may have seen her in was the 2009 NHK Trophy. So, she must have put in a memorable performance!

Apart from that, there are only 2 other possible explanations I can think of. Either she has performed in a Gala that I watched since then (probably as a guest skater at a GP Gala, or else the Oberstdorf end of year Eisgala), or else her name has popped up on the "People You May Know" box on Facebook at some stage!

Twin sisters Véronique and Isabelle Delobel were both Ice dancers and competed against each other at French Nationals, of course, and at 1999 Skate Canada, where Isabelle placed 3rd with her partner Olivier Schoenfelder, whilst Véronique placed 9th skating with another Olivier (Chapuis).

Ah! I liked Isabelle and Olivier. Although I knew she had a sister that also used to compete, I never realised that they were twins. Thank you bartlebooth for enlightening me. Although, seeing how alike they are, I'm amazed I never twigged...!

Not a current skater, but Alissa Czisny's twin Amber was a competitive skater, I'm sure her and Alissa probably competed against each other at some point. Here's some info on her if you're interested. http://dscclub.com/staff/amber-czisny-roy-2/

Alissa and Amber Czisny competed against each other early in Alissa's career. When Alissa placed 2nd at Nationals at the Junior level, Amber was 5th. Amber's only appearance at the national senior level was in 2003, where she placed 20th and Alissa 10th. Amber and Alissa competed at the 2004 Collegiate Championships, but I can't find any data for Amber past 2004. I think she might have dabbled in ice dance before becoming a teacher, if I remember correctly.

But this is completely new. I didn't realise Alissa had a sister that also skated, never mind that they were twins. Thank you both so much. I'll have to see if I can find some videos of Amber!

ETA: Here are some super cute twins skating to The Nutcracker https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCH5MOfHS5A

Awww!!! Everything about that routine is "cute"!

Incidentally, that video was posted 5 years ago. Out of curiosity, I clicked through to the user's other videos, and watched the most recent videos, which were posted 11 months ago. Now 9 years old, both of them are looking VERY promising. So, I would not be surprised if in 5 years time we see them competing at Junior competitions. Particularly Katarina.


Speaking of cute, have you ever seen the photos and videos Lucinda Ruh has been posting of her 2-year-old twin daughters?

Both girls are already on the ice, and loving it. So we may be seeing yet another set of twins setting the skating world alight in 12 years or so!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Vanshilar]

Tano variation on jumps

So a Rippon variation on a jump (i.e. Rippon Lutz) is where both hands are above the head during the mid-air rotation section of the jump. A Tano variation is where one hand is above the head.

For a counterclockwise skater, which hand should be the one above the head? Is there a difference between which one is used? Why?

Additionally, what other variations on the standard jump position have been used in competition? I think it would be funny if someone used the two-foot spin position i.e. legs straight down rather than crossed to add to the difficulty since slower rotation...or would judges consider it to be easier in difficulty? I can certainly imagine a lot of possible positions, such as having the free leg being held close to the body (i.e. I-spin position) but that would only have significant rotations for someone with good flexibility like Lipnitskaya...but my understanding (which may be wrong) is that flexible skaters tend not to have the best height in jumps, which then makes it hard to get into this position in midair quickly enough and perhaps impossible.

 

[StitchMonkey]

So a Rippon variation on a jump (i.e. Rippon Lutz) is where both hands are above the head during the mid-air rotation section of the jump. A Tano variation is where one hand is above the head.

For a counterclockwise skater, which hand should be the one above the head? Is there a difference between which one is used? Why?

Additionally, what other variations on the standard jump position have been used in competition? I think it would be funny if someone used the two-foot spin position i.e. legs straight down rather than crossed to add to the difficulty since slower rotation...or would judges consider it to be easier in difficulty? I can certainly imagine a lot of possible positions, such as having the free leg being held close to the body (i.e. I-spin position) but that would only have significant rotations for someone with good flexibility like Lipnitskaya...but my understanding (which may be wrong) is that flexible skaters tend not to have the best height in jumps, which then makes it hard to get into this position in midair quickly enough and perhaps impossible.

Love the way you think and would love to see some of you ideas. Sadly I doubt a skater could do much variation right now unless they can at least do a triple in that variation.

Not sure if it matters on Tano's which arm, I suspect it is skater preference and either count as a Tano.

As for other variations. Richard Dornbush had one at Lombardia that was with both hands behind his back that actually work surprisingly nicely. It did not show up at COC but i think that might be because he messed up that part, I am hoping it will make a reappearance.

 

[skatedreamer]

As for other variations. Richard Dornbush had one at Lombardia that was with both hands behind his back that actually work surprisingly nicely. It did not show up at COC but i think that might be because he messed up that part, I am hoping it will make a reappearance.

The "both hands" position looks great. Thanks for the link b/c the 2nd half was definitely not good @ CoC. I like the program a lot; hope he gets more comfortable w/ it so he can show it off (and himself) to best advantage. Also, looks like he did a Tano @ one point and then a Rippon right after -- pretty cool!

 

[StitchMonkey]

The "both hands" position looks great. Thanks for the link b/c the 2nd half was definitely not good @ CoC. I like the program a lot; hope he gets more comfortable w/ it so he can show it off (and himself) to best advantage. Also, looks like he did a Tano @ one point and then a Rippon right after -- pretty cool!

Yeah, the original was jam packed with awesome arm stuff! I did not think the behind the back would work well, but he found a way. I think what really makes it is how he swings the one arm around on landing. We need to figure out if anyone else was doing it first or if we can start calling a Dornbush position. I think someone said Jason was doing it for a bit early last season, but not sure I have seen it.

 

[gkelly]

Vanessa James has a twin sister named Melyssa. They used to compete against each other at club competitions in the US up to about novice level. Melyssa was taller and tried ice dance for a while, about the time Vanessa started doing pairs for Great Britain.

 

[Skater Boy]

So does anyone know what happens to the prize money a skater gets from these Grand Prix events. Do they get it all or does it get divided up with managers, coaches, federations? Who pays for flights, hotels, food? Coach? It would be super expensive if you had to pay your coaches flight, hotel, food, salary plus your flight, hotel and food etc You would have to be like first or second to pay the bills unless the GP organization pays for it? Do bigger stars get paid additional "appearance" fees? I think Patrick Chan said it cost about $200,000 to $250,000 for him to skate a year or at least for the olympics. I guess it is kind of like soap operas the big stars do ok but some of those down the l ist really struggle or have to come from very "blessed" families. You hear about some athletes with nice cars and condos and living away from their family and you are thinking and this is what they call "amateur" sport (though I think it is now called competitive as you have so many so called amateurs living it up (though not so much in skating). i note depending on what you buy but one Swarovzki crystal costs like $2.75 plus. So some of those sparkly umbers could be a small fortune.

 

[Bonnie F]

I've noticed that when I'm watching televised skating I'm having trouble telling what is supposed to be a lutz and what is supposed to be a flip. I know the flip takes off from an inside edge and the lutz an outside edge but I have a hard time determining the edge in real time. Unless the flip has the traditional half turn just before take off and the lutz has the traditional long running edge I have a hard time telling which is which. Does anyone have any advice about how I can better identify the jumps correctly?
Also, if a jump takes off from the wrong edge why does the skater just not get credit for the jump they actually did. For example, if a lutz is taken off from an inside edge why not just call the jump a flip and score it that way? Do the judges know in advance the skater's planned jump list and deduct accordingly for wrong edges? If not, how do they know that a skater didn't just decide to change the order of their jumps?
Thanks.

 

[penguin]

Does anyone have any advice about how I can better identify the jumps correctly?

Also, if a jump takes off from the wrong edge why does the skater just not get credit for the jump they actually did. For example, if a lutz is taken off from an inside edge why not just call the jump a flip and score it that way? Do the judges know in advance the skater's planned jump list and deduct accordingly for wrong edges? If not, how do they know that a skater didn't just decide to change the order of their jumps?

Lutzes are pretty easy to spot because there's only one entry -- gliding backward. They aren't as telegraphed as they used to be, and I've seen skaters starting to try to do more steps leading into it, but you'll still see that gliding back outside edge. One difference that might help is that when a skater does a flip, they're rotating into the jump. If they 3-turn or mohawk into the flip, they'll maintain momentum in the same direction out of the turn. Lutzes, however, take off counter to the entry so you'll the skater pick into the ice and almost slam themselves into the opposite direction. (For instance, if a skater jumps counterclockwise (the more common way), they'll glide on a left back edge, and the upper body will almost start to rotate toward the right. Then when the right toe pick hits the ice, the upper body twists to the left and continues rotating CCW.)

IMO, it would be a nightmare if scoring automatically counted lutzes that take off from the wrong edge as flips, because of the Zayak rule that limits how many jumps of each kind you can do. It's already bad enough when a skater misses a planned combo and gets penalized for repeating a jump unintentionally. Imagine the mental panic that a skater feels when they're trying to mentally rearrange programs as they're skating to avoid additional penalties. And you don't want to discourage skaters from trying to do lutzes properly, even if sometimes they flutz accidentally. I think the current system is fair, of dinging a flutz as a flutz.

 

[Vanshilar]

Why do lutz have the long backward glide? Why can't skaters do lutzes from a left forward inside 3-turn, the way flips are done from a left forward outside 3-turn? Or is it that the 3-turn would introduce too much counter-rotation to overcome?

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Vanessa James has a twin sister named Melyssa. They used to compete against each other at club competitions in the US up to about novice level. Melyssa was taller and tried ice dance for a while, about the time Vanessa started doing pairs for Great Britain.

Ach! How did I manage to forget about the James girls?! Sure Vanessa frequently posts photos of them together on Facebook!

I'm stupid!

So does anyone know what happens to the prize money a skater gets from these Grand Prix events. Do they get it all or does it get divided up with managers, coaches, federations? Who pays for flights, hotels, food? Coach? It would be super expensive if you had to pay your coaches flight, hotel, food, salary plus your flight, hotel and food etc You would have to be like first or second to pay the bills unless the GP organization pays for it? Do bigger stars get paid additional "appearance" fees? I think Patrick Chan said it cost about $200,000 to $250,000 for him to skate a year or at least for the olympics. I guess it is kind of like soap operas the big stars do ok but some of those down the l ist really struggle or have to come from very "blessed" families. You hear about some athletes with nice cars and condos and living away from their family and you are thinking and this is what they call "amateur" sport (though I think it is now called competitive as you have so many so called amateurs living it up (though not so much in skating). i note depending on what you buy but one Swarovzki crystal costs like $2.75 plus. So some of those sparkly umbers could be a small fortune.

As for Skater Boy's question about what happens the prizemoney, that is something I would also love to know. But I expect it is something we will never find out the answer to, as people tend to be very coy when it comes to talking about what they do with their money.

Although a lot of skaters do come from "blessed" families, as you put it, some do come from a less well-off background. Sure, two of the top Ladies skaters of the moment fit into that category: Liza Tuktamysheva and Julia Lipnitskaia. And the story about Agnes Zawadzki is now well known (LuisRollerArg brought it to our attention in this post).

I suspect that with less well-off skaters, all of the prizemoney does go straight back to covering the costs of competing and training.

You know, you HAVE to admire skaters like this for what they can achieve on a small budget and pure raw talent!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[peg]

Although a lot of skaters do come from "blessed" families, as you put it, some do come from a less well-off background. Sure, two of the top Ladies skaters of the moment fit into that category: Liza Tuktamysheva and Julia Lipnitskaia. And the story about Agnes Zawadzki is now well known (LuisRollerArg brought it to our attention in this post).

I suspect that with less well-off skaters, all of the prizemoney does go straight back to covering the costs of competing and training.

You know, you HAVE to admire skaters like this for what they can achieve on a small budget and pure raw talent!

CaroLiza_fan

I don't know if my perception is entirely accurate, but it has been my sense that although in North America, elite skaters almost always come from families that are quite comfortable financially, I don't think that's true in Russia (I don't know about other countries). Maybe it's a leftover from the Soviet days when achieving international success as an elite athlete was a way of raising one's standard of living (and perhaps someone from Russia can chime in). But certainly with Julia and Adelina, doing well in competition is a way they feel they can help their families financially. You don't tend to hear North American skaters talk about helping their families financially- usually it's the families helping them. I suspect that perhaps there is more state funding for athletes that show potential in Russia than in North America, otherwise I don't no how someone like Julia could have afforded coaching, etc.

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

Why didn't Haruka Imai get any points for her StSq in TEB FS?

 

[trains]

You can also do a lutz from a forward left to right mohawk - cross the left foot in front - pick with the right foot which is behind off the short LBO edge (for counterclockwise rotation) (opposite for clockwise) Young children are often taught that way because it lessens the time they ride the outside edge and therefore lessens the chance of them getting out of positions and coming off the outside edge.
The long edge take off is usually needed for the big lutzes however.