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Random Figure Skating Questions

So regarding GEO's, why do skaters kill themselves over 3-3 combos for potential negative GOE's when they could do a double axel for +3 and make it worth 6 pts? Or a double toe and make it worth 5 pts? Are GEO's not handed out like this because I feel like if they are than more skaters should be doing it like this.

Also what does the arm over the head do? Like Evgenia Medvedeva had all her jumps in the second half and a good amount of her jumps had her arm over her head but she ended up in third; I know PCS might have held her down but she still didn't have the highest technical score in the short. So do the Tano jumps do anything or are they just for style?

Thank in advance
 
So regarding GEO's, why do skaters kill themselves over 3-3 combos for potential negative GOE's when they could do a double axel for +3 and make it worth 6 pts? Or a double toe and make it worth 5 pts? Are GEO's not handed out like this because I feel like if they are than more skaters should be doing it like this.

Also what does the arm over the head do? Like Evgenia Medvedeva had all her jumps in the second half and a good amount of her jumps had her arm over her head but she ended up in third; I know PCS might have held her down but she still didn't have the highest technical score in the short. So do the Tano jumps do anything or are they just for style?

Thank in advance

All GOE given by judges is actually converted to a number based on a scale of values and then gets added to elements. for Quads & triple axels, skaters get 100% of the GOE. so if a skater lands a triple axel and all judges give +2, 2 points are added to the jump's base value. For triple jumps (besides the axel) the scale is different. for example, a triple lutz with a +2 from all judges will only actually receive 1.4 points in GOE. the GOE for double jumps is much lower.

you can view the scale of values here: https://usfigureskating.org/Content/201011-SP-SOV.pdf

Also, Medvedeva's tano jumps increase difficulty and allows the judges to give her higher GOE.
 
So regarding GEO's, why do skaters kill themselves over 3-3 combos for potential negative GOE's when they could do a double axel for +3 and make it worth 6 pts? Or a double toe and make it worth 5 pts? Are GEO's not handed out like this because I feel like if they are than more skaters should be doing it like this.

The value of the positive GOEs for lower value elements are proportional to the value of the element. So a double axel with +3 GOE across the board would be worth 4.8; a double toe with +3 GOE would be worth 1.9.

For a skater who can do triples with approximately 0 GOE, or better, they can earn more points by doing the triples.

Skaters whose triple attempts are usually underrotated and/or suffer from disruptive errors might end up with fewer points for the attempt than they could earn by doing great doubles, but few of those skaters (below-senior-average jumpers) would capable earning +3s. They still might be better off aiming for +1 doubles in the freeskate than trying triples, although as of this year they get zero points for doubles where triples are required in the short program.

Strong jumpers might do well to include as many triples as they're comfortable with, and then aim for +2 doubles to fill up any extra jump boxes rather than attempting other triples (or quads) that they can't rotate and land consistently. Especially if they can incorporate them in ways that accentuate the choreography and musical interpretation and contribute to an overall impression of mastery and high quality = good performance execution, to strengthen their PCS along with whatever points they earn for the elements themselves.


Also what does the arm over the head do? Like Evgenia Medvedeva had all her jumps in the second half and a good amount of her jumps had her arm over her head but she ended up in third; I know PCS might have held her down but she still didn't have the highest technical score in the short. So do the Tano jumps do anything or are they just for style?

At most, an arm variation on a jump would be one bullet point toward higher GOE -- it might make the difference between 0 and +1, or between +1 vs. +2 or +2 vs. +3. If the jumps are otherwise good in general, that one extra point (for triples, where each positive GOE step gives a full point) on many of the jumps could add up to as much as the equivalent of one extra triple in a free skate, a few extra points in a short program.

Variations might hurt or help or have no effect on the PCS, depending whether judges believe that they contribute positively or negatively to the purpose/coherence or overall quality of the program.

I.e., they can help the scores if done well, but they don't guarantee anything.
 
Question about Pair Skating-

I noticed that last year one of the required elements in the SP was a pair spin, and this year it's SbS.
Does it change every year? and if so, what's the purpose?
 
Why do people emphasize that a 3-3 in the LP is necessary for women to be competitive on the world stage when you can fit in 7 triple jumps (the max without a 3A) without one of those combos?
 
Why do people emphasize that a 3-3 in the LP is necessary for women to be competitive on the world stage when you can fit in 7 triple jumps (the max without a 3A) without one of those combos?

You would have to do a 2A+3T combo to get in seven triples without a 3-3. I guess that is almost as hard as a 3T+3T.
 
I understand that for spins you have to hold a position for 2 turns in order to count for a level. So how come skaters will hold a position for 4 or 8 turns? Like Yuna Kim's camel in 2010 she had 8 turns in camel, 4 turn in sit, and then another 8 in the I Position. Also, she only did 3: Camel, sit and I so how does that earn a level 4?
Also, why do skaters do extra positions? Like Adelina Sotnikova does the camel, than the illusions, than the sit, another sit and then the I. Does earn extra GOE??
Finally why do skaters change there spins from short and long? I get that the layback is required in Short so many might not like it, but Elena Radionova does change her spins from SP to LP. Are there different requirement for different levels or something?

Again, thanks in advance.
 
Why do people emphasize that a 3-3 in the LP is necessary for women to be competitive on the world stage when you can fit in 7 triple jumps (the max without a 3A) without one of those combos?

It just garners more points like Akiko Suzuki's program in 2014. She had 7 triples without a 3-3, but her score would be higher if she had a 3T-3T instead of a 2A-3T. Also, if you do a variety of jumps like 3Lz-3T you can do another 3Lz or 3T by itself so again, more points.
 
I'm curious why only American skaters have braces in general. I can see Satoko has a retainer or some type of braces. Does Russia only choose beautiful girls who do not need braces? Is that a requirement for them? Or is the Western Dentistry just brace happy...
 
I'm curious why only American skaters have braces in general. I can see Satoko has a retainer or some type of braces. Does Russia only choose beautiful girls who do not need braces? Is that a requirement for them? Or is the Western Dentistry just brace happy...

Ha! Love this question. :biggrin: Don't know about braces, but just personally, 30 years ago when I was in Europe I was seen as some sort of dental fanatic because I flossed every day. Never had braces though....
 
I understand that for spins you have to hold a position for 2 turns in order to count for a level. So how come skaters will hold a position for 4 or 8 turns? Like Yuna Kim's camel in 2010 she had 8 turns in camel, 4 turn in sit, and then another 8 in the I Position. Also, she only did 3: Camel, sit and I so how does that earn a level 4?

8 revolutions in a camel or layback or any difficult variation ("nonbasic position" only in combinations) is a feature toward a higher level, so skaters will often attempt that. Now that feature can only count once per program, in the first spin where it's successfully performed, so skaters will often try it more than once, figuring that increases their chance of getting credit one of those times.

It's risky to aim for exactly 2 revolutions in a position in case they miscount or the tech panel miscounts and they end up not getting credit for the position. They need 2 full revolutions in the basic position to get credit for it -- the part where they're rotating on the way into the position or on the way out of it don't count. If they go for 4, they should be safe.

Similarly, if a skater can fit five features into a spin without repeating features from their other spins, that may give them a better chance of earning level 4 in case one of the features ends up not being executed well enough for the tech panel to award it.

Also, why do skaters do extra positions? Like Adelina Sotnikova does the camel, than the illusions, than the sit, another sit and then the I. Does earn extra GOE??

All 3 basic positions on the second foot of a change-foot spin is another feature. A difficult change of position on the same foot is a feature. She might be aiming for one or both of those features.


More revolutions in general can help the GOE.

Finally why do skaters change there spins from short and long? I get that the layback is required in Short so many might not like it, but Elena Radionova does change her spins from SP to LP. Are there different requirement for different levels or something?

There aren't different requirements for levels between SP and LP.
There are differences in the kinds of spins required.

Senior ladies' SP requires a layback, a flying spin in one position with no change of foot, and a combination spin with one change of foot.
The freeskate requires a spin in one basic position (variations allowed), a spin with a flying entry, and a combination spin. All are allowed but not required to change feet, and all are allowed to fly; there just must be a different code for each of the spins. Flying entry and changing feet give a different code and also higher base value; combo spins have higher base values than spins in one position.

The SP requirements would also meet the FS requirements. But if a skater has a different spin in one position that she can do better than the layback (likely to earn higher GOE) and/or one with a higher base value (one with a flying entry and/or change of foot, or because she is capable of earning a higher level than she can in the layback), then she might choose the spin she can get more points for, or maybe just likes better, instead.

Similarly, a flying spin with a change of foot, or a combination spin with a flying entry, will have a higher base value than the SP flying spin. So the skater might choose to do a higher value flying spin instead.

If she's including the change of foot executed by a jump and/or the change of direction in camel or sit features, she might need to change feet more than once, or to change feet in the flying or one-position spin -- none of which are allowed in the SP.

I.e., the FS spin requirements allow for more options, so if a skater wants to take advantage of some of those options, especially skills she's proud of but can't fit into the SP requirements, she would end up with a different set of spins between programs.

Also, though this is rare, she might do different spins from one program to another because one fits the music and theme of the SP better and another fits the FS better. Or because she just likes variety.
 
I'm curious why only American skaters have braces in general. I can see Satoko has a retainer or some type of braces. Does Russia only choose beautiful girls who do not need braces? Is that a requirement for them? Or is the Western Dentistry just brace happy...

I know that Shen Xue (of Shen & Zhao fame) had braces after the 2002 Olympics and prior to that she rarely smiled because her crooked teeth embarrassed her. Now she has a perfect smile.

But it would seem athletes in general have good teeth - guess it must be their diet!
 
I noticed that last year one of the required elements in the SP was a pair spin, and this year it's SbS.
Does it change every year? and if so, what's the purpose?

It changes annually. Last season it was pair spin, now it's sbs, next season it will be pair spin, season after next season sbs and so on :)
Also, types of lift are changing annually. Last season it was a lift from the 5th group, (a lasso-lift take-off), now it's hand-to-hip lift (3rd group), next season it should be press lift (4th group).
 
I'm curious why only American skaters have braces in general. I can see Satoko has a retainer or some type of braces. Does Russia only choose beautiful girls who do not need braces? Is that a requirement for them? Or is the Western Dentistry just brace happy...
:biggrin: well maybe the majority of Russian ladies have good teeth already.
 
At the time, I felt really sorry for the skater in question. But, after watching her at the first event I have seen her compete in since it happened (her National Championships), I am starting to think that the nip slip might have been intentional.

DARN IT WHY DO I NEVER NOTICE THESE THINGS :mad: now I have to look up recent National Championship videos and watch them all frame-by-frame until I figure out who it is...for science!
 
DARN IT WHY DO I NEVER NOTICE THESE THINGS :mad: now I have to look up recent National Championship videos and watch them all frame-by-frame until I figure out who it is...for science!

"For science" :laugh: Since it was the same exact person in the same exact dress doing the same exact jump at the same exact time, she is very unlucky with that jump or it must be intentional. And given the circumstances that you pointed out, CaroLiza_fan, that's the most likely conclusion...but good thing the production team caught it this time.
 
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DARN IT WHY DO I NEVER NOTICE THESE THINGS :mad: now I have to look up recent National Championship videos and watch them all frame-by-frame until I figure out who it is...for science!

Good luck to you! :laugh: Because it is not at all obvious at her Nationals performance unless you know exactly when it happens! ;)

On the other hand, it is hard to miss on her 2nd international appearance of the season. Largely due to the zoomed-in, slow motion shot of her spinning round and round in the highlights package that I was complaining about when I first brought up this issue.

I should add, I don't make a habit of looking for these things!

CaroLiza_fan
 
I'm curious why only American skaters have braces in general. I can see Satoko has a retainer or some type of braces. Does Russia only choose beautiful girls who do not need braces? Is that a requirement for them? Or is the Western Dentistry just brace happy...

Maybe whatever problem they have is corrected quickly by cosmetic dentistry, other than braces.
 
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